Masterloot should return

[prwraith]

You forgot the biggest +:

+ you can quit the game in a week since you'll be BiS and there's nothing left to do!

Nobody actually did this. But blizzard is under the false impression we did despite evidence (all of wotlk / cata) to the contrary

You know what we did? We geared our alts so we had more than one viable toon.

[rrayy]

Lol dude. Not all changes made to WoW have anything to do with profitability (nor are they the direct result of any singular developer's direction). The fact that you'd equate the removal of ML with job performance is kind of laugbably oblique.

His argument boiled dpown to nothing more than Ion should be fired because I don't like the game. Also, profitability is the ultimate measure because that is what keeps the game going and that is what allows Ion to keep his job. More profit usually means more players playing the game.And, yes, removing a cancer like master loot when he sees it is an example of competency. Incompetent devs would leave said cancer in the game to continue to destroy it. Nothing oblique here.

[Kaver]

I'd call that unlucky RNG. But I would rather have that over players getting exploited by scummy raid leaders or loot councils who are exploiting others to funnel gear to themselves and their buddies.

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Yet you are doing the same thing by claiming as fact it was only a very small minority of guilds. That is nothing but your opinion.

The real facts are that Blizzard has the data and they never would have made the change if things were what you claim. so, going by that it is obvious it was far more of a problem.

If people are getting exploited by scummy raid leaders then it means they should leave that guild fast and find a new one. Changing the loot system wont make a toxic guild good. It will just disguise the toxicity for a while. But at the end of the day, a bad guild will always be bad and you should leave it no matter what loot system is used.

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And what if you can't find a better guild? It is far better to remove ml and remove the problem at the source.

Then you need to move server and find a good guild there. The game has plenty of awesome guilds. The loot system will never be the source of the problem. The core of the problem will always be bad guilds and bad raid leaders. If a raid leader exploits people then it means the guy is a bad toxic person. And removing the loot system wont fix that.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Blizzard has the data and never would have made the change if things were as you claim. The fact that BLizzard made the change at all proves it isn't a fantasy and that is was a problem.

Oh yes, the well known data point of "my guild didn't loot me an item after it was discussed on Discord/Mumble/TeamSpeak, therefore Master Looter is awful" is likely one they definitely took into account when making the change. That "Blizzard made the change, therefore it was a problem" isn't an argument, nor evidence that a change was made with good evidence for it being an improvement, it's just a blind assertion of "all changes Blizzard makes are right because it's Blizzard" without actually considering a problem. It's like when Blizzard claimed that finding the PvP vendor was too difficult for players to find. What evidence did we get for this? We only had Blizzard's statement that players had issues finding the vendors; however, this was never a persistent form of feedback on the forums and has not been a major point of feedback since their reintroduction in Shadowlands.

[Tadkins]

Then you need to move server and find a good guild there. The game has plenty of awesome guilds. The loot system will never be the source of the problem. The core of the problem will always be bad guilds and bad raid leaders. If a raid leader exploits people then it means the guy is a bad toxic person. And removing the loot system wont fix that.

Before ML was removed, all of the guilds I joined were ML guilds. A couple of them were even good and did genuinely do its best to ML loot fairly and without bias. But even then, I have always hated ML. I never liked the idea of certain players having that sort of power over other players. And I believe that anyone working to contribute to a boss kill, even a trial to a guild, should have a fair roll at loot like everyone else. But I just sat there and shut up, because I didn't want to cause drama and just accepted it as the norm. There were very few, if any options for those who genuinely preferred PL. I at least were not aware of any out there.

[Kaver]

Before ML was removed, all of the guilds I joined were ML guilds. A couple of them were even good and did genuinely do its best to ML loot fairly and without bias. But even then, I have always hated ML. I never liked the idea of certain players having that sort of power over other players. And I believe that anyone working to contribute to a boss kill, even a trial to a guild, should have a fair roll at loot like everyone else. But I just sat there and shut up, because I didn't want to cause drama and just accepted it as the norm. There were very few, if any options for those who genuinely preferred PL. I at least were not aware of any out there.

I get your point and I think your arguments is much better than those people just saying “oh but this toxic guild abused the system!” because people shouldn’t be anywhere near that toxic guild anyway.

I also agree with your argument when it comes to heroic raiding because the loot is flexible based on the amount of raiders. However for Mythic raiding I don’t necessarily agree with you because the loot is fixed. Your argument is that the trial contributed to the kill equally to the other members. But if it a boss that the guild has progressed on for multiple hour then I don’t agree that the trial has contributed equally unless they were actually a part of the progression.

[thunderdragon2]

no never the only people that want master loot back are ninja looters and dictator guild masters/raid leaders

[intenz]

Masterloot did way more damage to the majority of the playerbase than it helped the top 1%, and the fact that those same 1% are still playing means that personal loot isn't a deal breaker.

RIP Masterloot, forever.

And I'm sure this has nothing to do with blizzard wanting to cut support rep by removing the ability to ninja, thus making tickets for item thieves non-existent.

WoW has lost something like 10million subscribers over the last decade. I think some people forget that this isn't a wildly successful game anymore and the fact that some people are still playing isn't much to write home about.

[threads]

go run a raid on classic with masterloot. every run has the best item reserved

[czarek]

Master looter mmm. Meh. I do like actual system. Both system are not fair but ML was crap imho. RESERVED raids no more. Just take a look wtf is goin on calssic servers XD

[A Chozo]

this isn't a wildly successful game anymore

It still is, by all parameters. Little forums' opinions about the game didn't stop Shadowlands to sell all the millions, and anyone who thinks those sales aren't "wildly successful" are being disingenuous or are one of the big guys who invested heavy into Actiblizzard - and as such, aren't posting here.

[loras]

this arguement is seen time and time again and while i'm not going to say it doesn't happen, it is a very very small minority of guilds, and it was fairly rare back in the day with pugs due to personal server reputation and being shunned by that community, i wish people would stop claiming this arguement is fact when it's all opinion based and nothing but 'my feelings say so therefore it is' and no real substance for the majority of players.

You'll notice that most of those things don't exist anymore, and even classic failed to bring them back.
And for one whining about opinions you sure do try to pass off your own as arguments. Don't overestimate your own rationality, as both the numbers rejecting ML and Blizzard's dismissal of it are very strong indications that there may be more than a few arguments against it, and that your rejections to sych arguments might be based on opinion moreso than you admit to yourself.

[Blackmist]

Honestly, it's rings, necks and trinkets.

Rings and necks are the main item where it drops and it's an ilvl upgrade, but the lack of primary stats and variation in secondary stats means it could be (and often is) a downgrade.

Trinkets are poorly balanced and there's just too many of them for a lot of classes. The tooltips make sims the only way of knowing what is an upgrade and what isn't. They're not situational, they're either brilliant or just utter shit. It drops and everyone is like "is that good for me?" They don't know. How can they?

[Xires]

Anyone who pugged during HFC knows how dogshit Master loot in a pug environment (which is the environment for the vast majority of the players). Remember the "tier sets, trinkets and weapons reserved"?

In a raid environment, that was a source of a lot of drama aswell. Good riddance.

Masterloot was awesome. Only people who's endgame is normal pugging think that masterloot sucks. It's great if you're in a real raiding guild. You can get your best people geared and the most important roles geared- like your tanks or best healers.
Without it you can end up with some of your worst players getting some of the best gear which really makes the best gear go to waste.

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go run a raid on classic with masterloot. every run has the best item reserved

that's classic. Not even the same. Join a raiding guild. Not hard to find. Classic is not Vanilla either.

[Kolvarg]

I hold no particular love for ML. Having to manually roll each item was a pain.

With that said, I'd take that any day (or ideally the old "Need before greed" system) over the possibility of getting loot I don't want but can't trade to other people.

Happened in the very first boss of the first raid night I had this xpac, for instance. The boots dropped for me, 10ilvl higher than my legendary boots that I would soon upgrade. And I had to sell them instead of being able to give them to my healer.

Either give us a different loot option for groups of friends / guilds, or let us trade any PL loot we get as we see fit.

[trapmaster]

I rather not cuz drama and some bullshits. No thanks, I get it or i don't get it Simple as that. *angry hjonking noises over pixels upgrade*

[Melusine]

I don't think ML should be gone. I do however, think personal loot, should be a default. I'm more in favor of a currency to just buy what you want, though, personally.

[BeepBoo]

There's a difference between playing a game where gear feels like a shopping list and one in which random rewards actually feel... rewarding.

How people can have feelings like this about random rewards is beyond me. "Random chance" still ultimately amounts to a statistic somehow. Either you brute-force it, or you randomly get it ahead of the brute-force curve, but it doesn't feel rewarding to me just because I get it ahead of that curve. What makes things feel rewarding is doing something difficult and getting something equally exclusive. Feeling lucky != feeling rewarding.

I rather not cuz drama and some bullshits. No thanks, I get it or i don't get it Simple as that. *angry hjonking noises over pixels upgrade*

And regardless of who gets it or the reasons why, if I feel like I'm not getting equally rewarded for my effort versus other people, I'm getting upset and it's a ticking time bomb until I quit. I play this game to get parses and feel superior to people. Gear is a necessary means to that end. The more wasted loot there is and the more focus on personal luck for that success, the more likely I am to quit.

Not that it matters anymore, because corruptions were the ultimate nail in that coffin and made me quit for good...

But if wow actually wanted to improve on this front, they need to have a way of ensuring the difference between players who get lucky with loot isn't huge compared to people who aren't... or that it's just flat not possible for people to "win the lottery" at all.

[Merlunie]

And what if you can't find a better guild? It is far better to remove ml and remove the problem at the source.

LOL, so you're guild is toxic and shitty and you can't find a better one?

Nice fanfic.

[Greyvax]

If ML came back, the PUG community would turn into it was back in WoD:

ML MS>OS (x reserved)

MS>OS is supposed to be main spec > off spec, but it really means "my stuff > others' stuff"

Blizzard got tired of being flooded with tickets crying about ninja looting and decided to end it by making it PL across the board.