How to make old content relevant

[nocturnus]

Hey guys, I was chatting with a friend about how we thought it was a shame that Wow has a lot of virtually unused content just 'laying around' and I had this idea which we both found very appealing:

What if Blizzard would split old raids into dungeon-sized wings and turn those wings into full-fledged mythics? Wouldn't that be an amazing way of breathing new life into old content? It would requirer a bit of tuning and if possible a wee 'face lift', but in the end we'd have content that has proven to be great in a smaller form factor! It could also mean the return of dungeon sets (the respective tier sets without the set bonus, of course) and we'd have an influx of content that's fun for the nostalgic player and the new players.

What do you guys think?

[Azerate]

I prefer to do the new stuff while in the new expansion, and only do the old stuff for relaxing legacy farming and one shotting everything.

Plus it would be a nightmare to balance and give relevant rewards for all of the old stuff that would even incentivize people to play it.

[Zalatoby]

Hey guys, I was chatting with a friend about how we thought it was a shame that Wow has a lot of virtually unused content just 'laying around' and I had this idea which we both found very appealing:

What if Blizzard would split all old raids into dungeon-sized wings and turn those wings into full-fledged mythics? Wouldn't that be an amazing way of breathing new life into old content? It would requirer a bit of tuning and if possible a wee 'face lift', but in the end we'd have content that has proven to be great in a smaller form factor! It could also mean the return of dungeon sets (the respective tier sets without the set bonus, of course) and we'd have an influx of content that's fun for the nostalgic player and the new players.

What do you guys think?

I see where the idea is going, but some bosses require such a massive area to combat them, and handle special mechanics, I'm having a hard time seeing how just 5 people can do it on their own.

There would be a massive tuning task ahead of blizz's devs, to pull it off.

[DeltrusDisc]

All of it? Unnecessary and truly a monumental undertaking, as much as I'd love it.

I do still think it is a shame they briefly started doing this with some Vanilla dungeons back in MoP, but they didn't keep it up.

And why can't Maraudon be a, proper epic like Kara and Mechagon? It's sooooo beautiful!

[Thrif]

It would require a ton of changing and balancing and even so, a lot of people would already be tired of that content to death.

I prefer it as it is now with the time walking raids, it works pretty well imho.

[Vampyrr]

Hey guys, I was chatting with a friend about how we thought it was a shame that Wow has a lot of virtually unused content just 'laying around' and I had this idea which we both found very appealing:

What if Blizzard would split all old raids into dungeon-sized wings and turn those wings into full-fledged mythics? Wouldn't that be an amazing way of breathing new life into old content? It would requirer a bit of tuning and if possible a wee 'face lift', but in the end we'd have content that has proven to be great in a smaller form factor! It could also mean the return of dungeon sets (the respective tier sets without the set bonus, of course) and we'd have an influx of content that's fun for the nostalgic player and the new players.

What do you guys think?

Because I did all the content when it was relevant so months of certain things. I do not need to revisit any of it.

[Othraerir]

i mean they can't even balance the current content, no way they could do all the old stuff. it's a great idea though

[nocturnus]

Because I did all the content when it was relevant so months of certain things. I do not need to revisit any of it.

Wel, nobody said you need to. I'm also unsure about what you mean with "so months of certain things".

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All of it? Unnecessary and truly a monumental undertaking, as much as I'd love it.

I do still think it is a shame they briefly started doing this with some Vanilla dungeons back in MoP, but they didn't keep it up.

And why can't Maraudon be a, proper epic like Kara and Mechagon? It's sooooo beautiful!

Maybe not all of it and definitely not all of it right away. They could start with a single wing of a raid, the first three or four bosses in BT for instance.

I wonder if tuning would really be that tough, though. It's mostly calibrating incoming damage, adjusting frequency of abilities and the removal of boss abilities that require specific raid roles.

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i mean they can't even balance the current content, no way they could do all the old stuff. it's a great idea though

It might be an unpopular opinion, but I think that current content is pretty well balanced. That said, I only do M+ so I wouldn't know how raiding is.

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I see where the idea is going, but some bosses require such a massive area to combat them, and handle special mechanics, I'm having a hard time seeing how just 5 people can do it on their own.

There would be a massive tuning task ahead of blizz's devs, to pull it off.

The massive areas are already there, so that requires no changes. The special boss mechanics (mechanics that require specific classes or more than 5 people) aren't that prevalent and can just be removed.

The task is massive if they would have to convert all raids within a particular time frame. But if they's start with one raid, it would be perfectly doable.

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a lot of people would already be tired of that content to death.

I don't know if that's actually the case; raids like TK, BT, SSC, etc. were so long ago that people have either forgotten them or have never even done them to begin with. Besides, from what I can tell, transmog runs are super popular which suggests that people actually like revisiting old content. Admittedly, this is anecdotal evidence, at best.

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Plus it would be a nightmare to balance and give relevant rewards for all of the old stuff that would even incentivize people to play it.

Well, let's be honest; [loot] rewards are mostly just stat-sticks, which are extremely easy to balance and adjust. Trinkets could pose a problem, but trinkets generally pose a problem, whether they're new or old. Set bonuses would be removed, so yeah, I really see no issue on the reward side of the spectrum; seems pretty straight forward.

[Flurryfang]

Its just not a good idea to make old content relevant in a "forever-way". It creates a massive content flood and players automatically start putting content in a priority system and only does the most rewarding.

With old expansion raids, the enviroment is also heavily designed for its own period and game design have changed since then. Most raid bosses are also not very friendly to the 5 player format.

It just sounds like a lot of work, for little gain. Better to make new content in larger portions, than trying to remaster old raid content.

[nocturnus]

Its just not a good idea to make old content relevant in a "forever-way". It creates a massive content flood and players automatically start putting content in a priority system and only does the most rewarding.

With old expansion raids, the enviroment is also heavily designed for its own period and game design have changed since then. Most raid bosses are also not very friendly to the 5 player format.

It just sounds like a lot of work, for little gain. Better to make new content in larger portions, than trying to remaster old raid content.

I'd rather have a 'content flood' than a content draught again.

Also, people are already farming mythics by priority, so that's something you'll never completely avoid; Mists and HoA are mostly done because they're easy ways to boost your vault rewards, other mythics are dodged because they're a pain in the ass, specific normals are spammed by specific classes for legendary drops, etc.

Resurrecting old content isn't nearly as much work as making a brand new dungeon; all assets are already there. [I would think] it's merely a matter of number tuning.

[Lord Pebbleton]

That would drive me away from dungeons forever tbf. I ran every place when it was current and I would absolutely hate to progress through there again years later.

Even if a complete restructuring took place I would not be so happy. Cata Deadmines and Shadowfang are decent, but a piece of history was lost in their remake. I don't think there is anything to gain from this endeavor

[haiyken]

I'd rather have a 'content flood' than a content draught again.

Also, people are already farming mythics by priority, so that's something you'll never completely avoid; Mists and HoA are mostly done because they're easy ways to boost your vault rewards, other mythics are dodged because they're a pain in the ass, specific normals are spammed by specific classes for legendary drops, etc.

Resurrecting old content isn't nearly as much work as making a brand new dungeon; all assets are already there. [I would think] it's merely a matter of number tuning.

But what if recycled old dungeons/raids become more interesting to do ? Better loot, quicker or easier mechanics, whatever. What's the point of having new dungeons in new expansions if the best content is old content ?

I personnally don't think it's a good idea. I do agree that it's a shame that old content is not more reused, but much more about environnements and models than dungeons or raid themselves. With Legion they did make us travel a lot more around the world, less so with BfA. I think having the main continents feel more alive and relevant should be a priority, not reusing old instanced content. Using environnements to setup quests, scenarios or unique events (even new dungeons using the same assets), why not.

As few already said and other will, I'm also on the side of having done previous dungeons and raids so many times during their time, I'm really not interested in doing them again now. I think it's more than okay if WoW is not an evergreen game, I don't think it should be. It would be a nightmare to balance and I think it would prevent the devs to be more creative in the way they do dungeons/raids, with the idea it should be easily recyclable in mind.

[Nyxblow]

I'd love if they reused old content, but in a nice and polished way. As in releasing one dungeon once in a while, and making it up to date with current dungeon mechanics. Sort of what they did back in Cata with Deadmines.

Many players are focused on Mythic+ content. It just fits them better, not everybody has the time to spend entire evenings on raids. The problem is that you end up playing the same 8 (later on 10) same dungeons over a period of two years. It would be a great addition if they remade some old dungeons and make them competitive. Increase the dungeon pool from 8 to 20 for example.

And nostalgia, too.

[CalamityHeart]

Pass for me. Timewalking already tries its best to scratch an itch that's not there. All something like this would do is scratch harder. Instead of there being massive amounts of old content that no one uses, you instead just have massive amounts of "refurbished" content that no one uses, which is a net loss of time that could've been spent making more or higher-quality expansion content instead, which is what I'd much rather have.

[Deferionus]

I had the idea years ago they could do all of the old expansions with their own progression paths. Essentially you would have BC with a stats template and then you would have your gear for BC progression stored like you have transmogs. BC raids would be tuned around this template and the stats from the gear you earn from BC raids. Could even do talent templates, and any time you are in the content areas for that expansion you would use templates catered to that expac. The idea was to make content timeless without the need for constant rebalancing.

While it would achieve its design goals, imo, there are big picture problems such as fracturing the player base, buy in to the newest content, and incentive to do it years after the alternate progression is implemented. What when 80% of the player base has cleared Hyjal, BT, and Sunwell after 6 years and someone wants to go back and do it but cant find players to? Ultimately Blizz would likely not see it worth the dev time.

[WaltherLeopold]

I'd be happy if they just didn't invalidate older content within the same expansion, but it's been like this for well over a decade now, they seem to be in a massive hurry to be done with tiers and their ancilliary content just to rush to the drought at the end of an expansion.

It's just so odd that they spend so much time and effort into making raids and systems that for the most part are only alive for the 6~ months that they are current and then are relegated to complete obscurity bar transmogs and mounts.

[DeltrusDisc]

Maybe not all of it and definitely not all of it right away. They could start with a single wing of a raid, the first three or four bosses in BT for instance.

I wonder if tuning would really be that tough, though. It's mostly calibrating incoming damage, adjusting frequency of abilities and the removal of boss abilities that require specific raid roles.

I mean... that's so boring though. Dungeons and raids were designed how they were originally because they tell a cohesive story and they are epic.

It should be a commitment. Maybe you can pause and come back, sure, but I much prefer it be one full run.

The more we break things up, the more I hate it, in all honesty. It just feels so much more... disjointed. Empty. Shallow.

Running the Kara remake entirely in one run was always so much cooler than broken up in the two wings. It felt like a real, significant instance. Idk, maybe I'm just crazy. I just long for the days of playing the old school Zelda titles like OoT, MM, TP to a lesser degree. (Yes I am missing some wonderful dungeons, I know.)

[nocturnus]

But what if recycled old dungeons/raids become more interesting to do ? Better loot, quicker or easier mechanics, whatever. What's the point of having new dungeons in new expansions if the best content is old content ?

Well, that's thinking in limitations if you ask me; what if mists is easier than theater of pain? Well, it is and you see what it does. Nothing a good balancing can fix, if you ask me.

I'd love if they reused old content, but in a nice and polished way. As in releasing one dungeon once in a while, and making it up to date with current dungeon mechanics. Sort of what they did back in Cata with Deadmines.

Many players are focused on Mythic+ content. It just fits them better, not everybody has the time to spend entire evenings on raids. The problem is that you end up playing the same 8 (later on 10) same dungeons over a period of two years. It would be a great addition if they remade some old dungeons and make them competitive. Increase the dungeon pool from 8 to 20 for example.

And nostalgia, too.

My thoughts exactly.

I'd be happy if they just didn't invalidate older content within the same expansion

A very good point, this is why I usually stop after the first patch; the grind literally restarts in the same content.

Some of you have very good arguments; yes, I agree that Timewalking sucks. But "my" idea (I'm quite sure lots of other people have had this super unique idea, hehe) revolves around recycling raids and turning those into dungeons and not re-using old dungeons at level-cap. I personally hated the Deadmines remake; it was too long and I had seen it too often during leveling.

I mean... that's so boring though. Dungeons and raids were designed how they were originally because they tell a cohesive story and they are epic.

It should be a commitment. Maybe you can pause and come back, sure, but I much prefer it be one full run.

The more we break things up, the more I hate it, in all honesty. It just feels so much more... disjointed. Empty. Shallow.

Running the Kara remake entirely in one run was always so much cooler than broken up in the two wings. It felt like a real, significant instance. Idk, maybe I'm just crazy. I just long for the days of playing the old school Zelda titles like OoT, MM, TP to a lesser degree. (Yes I am missing some wonderful dungeons, I know.)

I get your point Delt, but I also have to admit my idea derives from a somewhat more selfish desire; I don't want to spend more than 30-40 minutes on one dungeon. Wow needs to be pick-up and play for me, which is one of the reasons I despise raiding. Well, that and the logistics involved. Puke.

I don't think video games should be a commitment, or a chore. But of course that's merely my opinion, like a lot of things in this thread, by the way!

That would drive me away from dungeons forever tbf. I ran every place when it was current and I would absolutely hate to progress through there again years later.

I mean, SSC, TK and BT were more than 10 years ago. Would it really be that horrible for you to revisit those places in a smaller form-factor, kill Lady Vasj again and loot your Tier 5 dungeon set?

[DeltrusDisc]

I get your point Delt, but I also have to admit my idea derives from a somewhat more selfish desire; I don't want to spend more than 30-40 minutes on one dungeon. Wow needs to be pick-up and play for me, which is one of the reasons I despise raiding. Well, that and the logistics involved. Puke.

I don't think video games should be a commitment, or a chore. But of course that's merely my opinion, like a lot of things in this thread, by the way!

Yeah, well, MY OPINION IS THE BEST! Harumph!

[Jonnusthegreat]

Timewalking is enough. Old raids is not a good option, since new players would not be able to learn them at a reasonable rate, since, like you said, there is so much of it.