How to make old content relevant

[glowpipe]

they can't balance new content made this year, what makes you think they would be able to balance 50 times more content that was made really shit back in the days. They can't just upscale it, they would need to redo most content and there is simply no way in hell they could do that

[Vampyr78]

It would create a situation where there is way too much to do in a week. In current climate some people do every possible thing that can give them advantage, like a piece of gear from a dungeon. This pressures other people to do the same to not stay behind. This causes a huge avalanche effect, people complainig that there is too much, people burning ouy quckly. There are like 50 old raids, assuming that on avarage each one would be splitted into 2-3 mythic dungeons(some raids are bigger some are smaller)that would about 125 dungeons you would have to do every week for a chance to get piece of gear, especially if you just starting to gear up. That's a lot and would be very tiring, after a month you would hate most of them.

Now another thing is that pretty much all raids would need to be redone to work as mythic dungoens. Earlier raids would just be too easy, some raids have mechanics desniged around having at least 10 people. That's a lot of work that would need to taken off from developping new contnet.

They are alrady doing timewalking that is good way to make some old content relevant without obstructing current content. It's not active all the time and only for one expansion at a time so you don't end up with bloated amount of dungeons to do.

[Bladesyphon]

A better, simpler idea would to just make Timewalker a permanent feature, and have Timewalking Bonus weekends simply increase reputation and drop gains from said dungeons.

There's no reason to reinvent the wheel, just take what we have already, and design it to be a permanent feature, rather than a monthly bonus event that lasts a week. It would also make Timewalking Raids a lot more fun and relevant as well.

[loras]

Hey guys, I was chatting with a friend about how we thought it was a shame that Wow has a lot of virtually unused content just 'laying around' and I had this idea which we both found very appealing:

What if Blizzard would split old raids into dungeon-sized wings and turn those wings into full-fledged mythics? Wouldn't that be an amazing way of breathing new life into old content? It would requirer a bit of tuning and if possible a wee 'face lift', but in the end we'd have content that has proven to be great in a smaller form factor! It could also mean the return of dungeon sets (the respective tier sets without the set bonus, of course) and we'd have an influx of content that's fun for the nostalgic player and the new players.

What do you guys think?

Excellent idea, it'd provide an expanding pool of content rather than just the flavor of the expansion.

And if it overwhelns they could just rotate expansions weekly or something.

[Araya]

They don't want old content to be relvent and for the most part neither does the player base. This sounds like a terrible idea to me.

[bloodkin]

I would ask, why? I can understand and agree with the sentiment that the current game has changed so much that it's hardly the same as it was 10 or even 5 years ago, and not for the better in my opinion. But the game is getting up there in years and there's so much content added over the expansions that it would be very hard to either keep up with it or make a functional system to keep them going, that it would confuse the hell out of most players. Don't get me wrong, I like most old content better than te current stuff but blizz has changed it's design and gameplay philosophy so drastically over the past few years that I don't believe any would work pre WoD, or even legion.

In my opinion, wow classic should keep going and move on to burning crusade. Sure, it won't be the same as the first time we played it (as classic has demonstrated), but at least we can enjoy the older content for what it is if we choose not to minmax everything. Timewalking doesn't scratch the itch I have for older content, and although classic was a fun exercise, I think it has potential enough to go on and be playable for other expansions.

[Nightstalker]

How much stuff do you want to farm each week for gear progress? How many 100s of man hours should be wasted tuning and re-tuning these bosses every xpac?
Do you even think for more than 10 seconds when it comes to this?

[Kuja]

Funny. I was just testing something in BRD and was wondering how interesting it could be if there was timewalking event for M+ with all old dungeons like BRD, or even M0. But the mechanics are mostly tank and spank and people are so familiar with the encounters that it would be perhaps even too easy if you could do M+15 Ragefire Chasm. But if it's timewalking, then ilvl is always lower.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I mean, SSC, TK and BT were more than 10 years ago. Would it really be that horrible for you to revisit those places in a smaller form-factor, kill Lady Vasj again and loot your Tier 5 dungeon set?

Yes, at least for me. I have an incredible selective memory and I remember my time in TBC like it was yesterday. That is why, for example, the concept of NG+ in the majority of games is completely foreign to me; I get bored super easy because it feels like rewatching a movie right after having watched it.

I can handle the current expansion just fine and I was able to experience Vanilla because I did not play back then. But to live through TBC again? I would hate that. For the same reason I will never even try to get into the Classic TBC servers. I won't throw myself willingly in an endless cycle of re-living all of WoW eras.

(Yes, I know this is a very unusual and personal opinion. Still, that's how I feel at large)

[nocturnus]

It would create a situation where there is way too much to do in a week. In current climate some people do every possible thing that can give them advantage, like a piece of gear from a dungeon. This pressures other people to do the same to not stay behind. This causes a huge avalanche effect, people complainig that there is too much, people burning ouy quckly. There are like 50 old raids, assuming that on avarage each one would be splitted into 2-3 mythic dungeons(some raids are bigger some are smaller)that would about 125 dungeons you would have to do every week for a chance to get piece of gear, especially if you just starting to gear up. That's a lot and would be very tiring, after a month you would hate most of them.

Now another thing is that pretty much all raids would need to be redone to work as mythic dungoens. Earlier raids would just be too easy, some raids have mechanics desniged around having at least 10 people. That's a lot of work that would need to taken off from developping new contnet.

They are alrady doing timewalking that is good way to make some old content relevant without obstructing current content. It's not active all the time and only for one expansion at a time so you don't end up with bloated amount of dungeons to do.

Yeah, this conversation would be a lot more fun if people would read each other's posts; Yes, some mechanics would have to be reworked and/or removed. It's still less work than having to make all assets from scratch, on top of thinking of new mechanics.

Ironically, what you're describing in the first part of your reply basically illustrates the status quo; people pressure themselves into spamming m+, which is even worse, because it's literally repeating the same content. Having more viable dungeons would actually reduce the chances of people being burnt out. Reflect on it, who's going to burn out more quickly? The dungeon grinder that has 10 dungeons to pick from? Or the one that has 20 dungeons to pick from? I would think the more freedom of choice, the more variety. More variety means you're not going to get fed up as quickly.

Look, in the end, we can't prevent people from no-lifing. Is someone wants to spend every minute of their day staring at pixels, well, let them. Limiting choice in a way of gating player activity isn't just a result of narrow minded thinking, it's also pointless; it doesn't work.

neither does the player base.

How do you know this? More interestingly, why do you think you know this?

How much stuff do you want to farm each week for gear progress? How many 100s of man hours should be wasted tuning and re-tuning these bosses every xpac?
Do you even think for more than 10 seconds when it comes to this?

This is the problem with some of you people; you think in terms of "I HAVE TO FARM THIS!" No, you really don't. Nothing horrible will happen if you don't 'cap your [insert whatever]'.

You should ask yourself why, though. Why do you feel compelled to play the game in a particular way? Don't you see how ridiculous this is?

Some at the end of an m+ said yesterday: "Aw man, I want to do this key, but I have to do Torghast before the reset. I'm so bummed out!"

So I asked him: "Eh, why do you have to do Torghast? Who's forcing you?"

Guys, it's a game, you should do things for fun, not because you have to. That invisible force that pushes you to do things beyond your enjoyment is controlled by none other than yourself. If you don't like something, don't do it.

Yes, at least for me. I have an incredible selective memory and I remember my time in TBC like it was yesterday. That is why, for example, the concept of NG+ in the majority of games is completely foreign to me; I get bored super easy because it feels like rewatching a movie right after having watched it.

I can handle the current expansion just fine and I was able to experience Vanilla because I did not play back then. But to live through TBC again? I would hate that. For the same reason I will never even try to get into the Classic TBC servers. I won't throw myself willingly in an endless cycle of re-living all of WoW eras.

(Yes, I know this is a very unusual and personal opinion. Still, that's how I feel at large)

Granted, it's boring to you. But as you mentioned it, NG+ is extremely popular. That's the main selling point of games like Dark Souls and Biohazard.

Besides, if you would hate that, don't do that. No one is forcing you, but yourself. It's never a bad thing to have more options.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny. I was just testing something in BRD and was wondering how interesting it could be if there was timewalking event for M+ with all old dungeons like BRD, or even M0. But the mechanics are mostly tank and spank and people are so familiar with the encounters that it would be perhaps even too easy if you could do M+15 Ragefire Chasm. But if it's timewalking, then ilvl is always lower.

I wasn't referring to old dungeons; those are still viable during your leveling experience. I was referring to old raids, splitting them up into wings and turning them into 2 or 3 dungeons with updated mechanics.

Yes, it would require some tuning. But tuning is always required, also in new content. Which is why we have hot-fixes and patches.

[Squigglyo]

So basically just Timewalking but all the time...


Timewalking as is works well because people don't have access all the time. It's 'something new/different' to do every few weeks.

Besides, from what I can tell, transmog runs are super popular which suggests that people actually like revisiting old content. Admittedly, this is anecdotal evidence, at best.

All that proves is that people like transmog. not that they like replaying the raid/dungeon it comes from.

[Rendark]

Farming mounts and transmog already makes old content relevant. Just make raids and dungeons two expansions old soloable and done.

[nocturnus]

So basically just Timewalking but all the time...

Never did a timewalking raids. How does that work? Is the loot viable? Is is doable with 5 people and is it challenging? If is, yes! Exactly like that, but keyable (m+).

- - - Updated - - -

All that proves is that people like transmog. not that they like replaying the raid/dungeon it comes from.

Well, no. It doesn't prove that either. It proves - if you will - that people are willing to revisit content under the right conditions. Transmog can be one, but new interesting items and challenging content might be another.

[rhorle]

Timewalking, even the raids, shows that old content doesn't really work that well in the modern game. Or that it is entirely fun trying to get groups of people to follow those old mechanics. The game already has a way to help make old content relevant. Timewalking just needs to be expanded and made interesting beyond "scaling". Anima powers, "fun affixes" etc with a full rotation of old content would be fun.

Then for the rest you could do like they did in BfA and have the zones have new content. They could even give it the MoP scenario or BfA Islands treatment where you can queue for a short form experience with non-traditional goals. Simply turning a old raid into a mythic dungeon won't work very well because of raid mechanics not able to scaled down to 5 people and still be difficult and it won't really solve the problem you apparently want to be solved. Short content with no time commitment.

Just have them release more new dungeons.

[Squigglyo]

Well, no. It doesn't prove that either. It proves - if you will - that people are willing to revisit content under the right conditions. Transmog can be one, but new interesting items and challenging content might be another.

Outside of a tiny, teeny minority, the ONLY reasons people go back and do the old content, over and over, would be transmog, mounts and achievements.
Next to no one would be going back for fun.
We wernt talkng about changing the content, your point was 'people go back to it currently'. Its because they want stuff from it.



Ultimatly, the content is old.
Having a pool of 50+ dungeons would be daunting. Mythic ladders would be chaos.
Having all past raids drop comparable gear would just provide an endless amount 'to do' every week.
Old stuff is fun because of nostalgia, you make it current again and it will no longer be the fun thing you remember, itl be just another current thing.

While adding 50+ dungeons and raids to the pool of things you could do sounds good on paper, diluting the things you could do would mean finding groups for what 'you' want to do would be next to impossible.
Want the gear from Molten Core? too hard, no group pick from one of the 47 other raids.
Have a quest for a specific dungeon? Hope you roll it in the random group finder, or try to find 4 other people who specifcally need that one as apposed to the 50+ others.


More choice is always good.
Too much choice, makes it meaningless.

[haiyken]

Well, that's thinking in limitations if you ask me; what if mists is easier than theater of pain? Well, it is and you see what it does. Nothing a good balancing can fix, if you ask me.

I'm sorry but that's naive to think that way. They're 100+ dungeons in the game right now. Balancing every dungeon to make them all somewhat relevant is an impossible task. The current dungeon roster is not even balanced and we only have 8. Even if all 100+ dungeons were not updated to your mythic+ system and only a fraction would, it's still an enormous amont of work to put into recycled content, work that could be use to create new and relevant content.

From a game production stand point, it doesn't make any sense. It will not help with content drought (because the recycled mythic+ will be as relevent to players as normal mythic+ loot wise by your definition) and will not bring new players to the game (doing content in old zones, with old mechanics and disconnected from the expansion storyline).

As I said, I personnally don't care for doing mythic+ Magisters' Terrace or mythic+ The Stonecore while I can do the new dungeons, for the same reward. I would prefer the devs to make new relevant dungeons instead (even if I think 8 is fine).

I get your point Delt, but I also have to admit my idea derives from a somewhat more selfish desire; I don't want to spend more than 30-40 minutes on one dungeon. Wow needs to be pick-up and play for me, which is one of the reasons I despise raiding. Well, that and the logistics involved. Puke.

I don't think video games should be a commitment, or a chore. But of course that's merely my opinion, like a lot of things in this thread, by the way!

I hate to be that guy, but maybe it's not exactly your kind of game ? By design, an MMO ask for some kind of commitment, because of the grind, because of the ever evolving content and narrative. You can't just "pick-up" the game and do whatever you want, you first have to level to access some part of the content, then gear up to access to more difficult and rewarding content. I agree it shouldn't feel like a chore (I personnally don't think it's that right now) but if you want to enjoy WoW for what it's designed to be, you have to commit to play a certain time, a certain way.

I fail to see how making old content relevant in the ways you described is aligned with your way of wanting the game to play. What I see is that you enjoy old content for its simplicity and the lack of complicated mechanics (that you don't like in raiding, for example). That's fair, and that's even great that you like that, but it's not really what the game is about, and hasn't been about for many many years.

[Flurryfang]

I'd rather have a 'content flood' than a content draught again.

Also, people are already farming mythics by priority, so that's something you'll never completely avoid; Mists and HoA are mostly done because they're easy ways to boost your vault rewards, other mythics are dodged because they're a pain in the ass, specific normals are spammed by specific classes for legendary drops, etc.

Resurrecting old content isn't nearly as much work as making a brand new dungeon; all assets are already there. It's merely a matter of number tuning.

You are saying, that you would rather have the plaque instead of the....plaque. Its both bad, you are not improving things much. If you have ever experienced a content flood, you will know that it quickly turns into a draught, since content becomes "worthless" in such a system quite quickly.

And farming mythics is only a problem on the higher keys, you can still find plenty of the "harder" mythics being done in plenty on a number of different key levels. The question is just how much of a problem, and i believe if you added a ton of dungeons, that were built upon past raid boss figths, you would quickly see it nearly only being played or not played at all.

To be honest, im not one against new content or even remaking of old content. I am personally a huge fan of the rework of ZG into a 5 man dungeon, but that place also had to be reworked from the ground up, nearly making it into a completly new dungeon. It might take less work, but not much. And if you just do numbers tuning, you will hit brick walls with many of the different boss encounters. Cause....you know.... dungeon bosses and raid bosses are designed differently.

If you are about to make old raids into "fresh" content, i would much rather prefer they just took their time to make new dungeons instead of experimenting within properly the most important content system they have in the game atm.

[Aggrophobic]

Hey guys, I was chatting with a friend about how we thought it was a shame that Wow has a lot of virtually unused content just 'laying around' and I had this idea which we both found very appealing:

What if Blizzard would split old raids into dungeon-sized wings and turn those wings into full-fledged mythics? Wouldn't that be an amazing way of breathing new life into old content? It would requirer a bit of tuning and if possible a wee 'face lift', but in the end we'd have content that has proven to be great in a smaller form factor! It could also mean the return of dungeon sets (the respective tier sets without the set bonus, of course) and we'd have an influx of content that's fun for the nostalgic player and the new players.

What do you guys think?

No thanks. I've done all that already.
I want new stuff, no re-gridning the same old stuff over and over again.

[Tojara]

The best thing they can do is selectively bring back an old dungeon with a new spin (which they've done before). Otherwise, TW dungeon/raids that pop up every time really serve that purpose.

Having old stuff be relevant is incredibly hard to balance and would just cause massive revamps. There's a reason they started moving away from the 'classic era' about half way through TBC, and move towards more seasonal content (went hand in hand with arena, as well). You might not like it, but 6 months of a current raid tier is enough IMO. Considering they opened up the difficulty and have multiple difficulty options available, the contents there for people who want to experience it and if you miss it you can always go back and do it at a later date.

[Blackmist]

M+ Timewalking. On Timewalking week, each M+ key also lists an old dungeon. You can do either the new dungeon or the old one. Same ilvl rewards.