Is Classic too easy?

[arkanon]

and by nobody you mean the 100s of guilds that are not 15/15 in Naxx

You are making the same mistake as many other - assuming that if a guild hasnt full cleared naxx, it is because it is too challenging for them. You have nothing to support that claim. Guilds stop part way through a raid for countless reasons, the least of which is "this is too hard, lets stop".

[Koward]

Thats just as terrible metric. Should rather be "how many guilds that attempted to clear naxx cleared it?". So should probably check how many guilds kill the early bosses but dont clear the whole raid.

Yes indeed sorry, that's what I had in mind.

[Echocho]

I never said that it’s all just time investment in waiting for difficulty, I said it’s a factor in it.

Let’s say there are two completely similar raids, both of them have the exact same mechanics and bosses. But on one version of the game it is the last raid in an attunement style expansion like tbc so the 40 people you need have to be fully attuned, and go through all the stages of the game to stay together and be geared.

Then on the other version of the game it’s literally the first raid that anyone can walk into and it’s at the beginning of the expansion.

So I have to ask, if both are the EXACT SAME raid in terms of mechanics, which one is harder to clear?

Neither and both. The difficulty of the raid is the difficulty of the raid. What is required to enter is completely irrelevant. You wouldn't call Blackwing Descent in Cata easier than Bastion of Twilight just because it's closer and easier to get to right?

[ShaanuJaanu]

ITs piss easy, things stopping people from clearing naxx (if we conisder naxx to be the hardest raid in classic) are arbitrary hurdles like price of consumables/organizing 40 man raids etc.

[Thundering]

ITs piss easy, things stopping people from clearing naxx (if we conisder naxx to be the hardest raid in classic) are arbitrary hurdles like price of consumables/organizing 40 man raids etc.

sure man it isent at all that the raid is hard nonono.....

[Fathr]

Yes and no. Easy is due to a lot of functions, World Buff Meta's, 15 years of plowing the same content, and knowing whats in store next = easier preparations for next tier requirements in term of farming. No simply because Naxx requires consumes in a higher degree and is less forgiving if you mess up and loose your WB Meta. But is it hard in terms of mechanics ? no, but it is time consumeing.

[Synical123]

...Both of them are the same - Clearing is not the same as getting a group.



If your guild is already attuned and ready to go, you wouldnt claim they are fighting a harder boss.

By your logic, clearing Kaelthas and Lady Vashj would be considered easier than clearing the first boss in Mt Hyjal simply due to the attunement.

No..... that's not how that works at all. Once again I'm saying it is a FACTOR. I am NOT SAYING that it is the SOLE REASON FOR SOMETHING BEING DIFFICULT.

Are you even reading what I'm telling you?

- - - Updated - - -

Neither and both. The difficulty of the raid is the difficulty of the raid. What is required to enter is completely irrelevant. You wouldn't call Blackwing Descent in Cata easier than Bastion of Twilight just because it's closer and easier to get to right?

Idk why you people are having such a hard time reading this, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S WHAT MAKES SOMETHING DIFFICULT. I'M SAYING IT'S A FACTOR.

Do you even understand what that means?

Here I'll use a different scenarios here so maybe your baby brains can pick up on it.

Two completely similar raids, one is 10 man one if 40 man, they both have the exact same fights exact same everything but scaled to the amount of raiders, which one is easier to clear?

[Heathy]

it was only going to be difficult if guilds didn't manage to stay together, if you were consistently bleeding players, having to recruit ppl and replace the majority of your roster would have made it difficult to progress since there isn't an easy way to get prepared for naxx without farming bwl and aq40, most of this gear you need to level the playing field, you can't just level to 60 and get a spot in naxx. keeping your guild mostly active and keeping the majority of the loot gained, showing up to raids. was always going to be the greatest challenge. but from the beginning most ppl I would say wanted this, so the commitment was something ppl knew they would need to stick to if they wanted to get through it all. and so I saw a fair amount of ppl burn out or just get bored and quit, players who got good loot, even saw a guy with TF, quit to play SL. it really wouldn't take that much to fold a guild (just a few key players giving up) so seeing one reach the end is the accomplishment. the overall difficulty being the logistics of maintaining a functioning and active guild from start to finish. even if you do have a lot of ppl come and go, its the ability to find and replace ppl hopefully culminating in a raid team that is not only decent but consistently shows up.

mechanically there are several bosses in naxx that require you to not fail on an individual basis there are various bosses that require you to move or die, without world buffs some bosses are quite close in the sense that you are a bad rng roll away from a wipe (for example patchwerk with no world buffs, your tanks might not survive a hateful strike if they are under 9k hp it would be a dice roll). its only really sapphiron I think that stands out to me, with world buffs he dies quite quickly but without world buffs he does a lot of damage and there is no buffer hp so you instantly notice the difference. I think naxx is of moderate difficulty and would say that in some cases it has more requirement for personal awareness than SSC/TK more bosses that require individuals to not fail. most of the bosses in naxx imo are about on par with bosses like Lurker or Leotheras where the fight is all about your own awareness not getting hit by water spout, not dying to the dance, not getting hit by whirlwind a bunch of times, not failing at polarity. its pretty similar to that level of difficulty. i think i feel quite happy saying that naxx is about on par with t5 its harder than t4 (but most of t4 is just karazhan) and so it ends up being roughly t5 levels of difficulty.

most of the bosses in naxx you simply won't be able to cobble together a 40 man out the LFG chat and start one shotting bosses, it'll probably never happen. a few fights are going to be wipe fests until things go right, you won't one shot 4h until everyone knows their rotation, you won't one shot razuvious if your priests haven't done the MC before. etc etc etc. the content isn't hard but its also not face roll on the first try either and most groups simply won't one shot bosses without some practice wipes.

[poggers]

Classic has always been about hanging with the boys and chilling out. If I wanted raids where I had to constantly move around and dodge one shot mechanics I'd go play retail. I enjoy the fact that classic has a finite amount of treadmill content that I can do and then go chill and do something else like farm gold or play another game. It's the main reason I only play retail for a couple weeks at the start of every expansion because everything done the first 4-5 months is meaningless when the next patch/season starts.

[ShaanuJaanu]

sure man it isent at all that the raid is hard nonono.....

If you think naxx is hard, you havent really raided competitively in any of the major MMOs in the last 10 years or so.

EDIT: waiting on the retail is EZ HAR DAR argument from the LFR memebois.

[Kralljin]

Some guys opinion doesn't change facts.

"some guy" went over Warcraftlogs and presented the data, the result is:
Less than 20% of guilds that publically recorded their logs and at least killed one boss did manage to clear Naxx within the first two weeks.

How you twist this into an opinion is beyond me, those are facts.

If you want to argue that Naxx is easier than LFR, then i'd love to see your stats which show that LFR clear rates are <20% in a similiar timeframe but i somehow doubt that the clear rates for LFR are that low under normal circumstances.

The amount of clears is not low. It is extremely high. Ridiculously so. Much higher than LFR clears on retail.

Go ahead, post the data for the first two weeks of the last LFR wing over the last years and we'll compare.

[Equoowe]

Also I went into Nathria as a melee, didn't read any of the fights, had zero consumes, no idea what's going on and still did good damage

Did good damage? your logs say otherwise lol.

People act like retail is the hardest individual thing, it really isn't. Synchronized swimming with 40 people is difficult. Retail you can just carry bads all the way to Mythic, I know because we did it in BFA and Legion.

In Vanilla you can carry bads all the way through Naxx and the larger raid size means it's also much easier to do it, Naxx is not difficult unless you are awful at the game.

[T-34]

Naxx would be somewhere between Normal-Heroic difficulty, leaning towards Heroic, if comparing to retail. Casuals guilds are struggling in Naxx, certainly a huge step above all the previous Classic raids which were complete pushovers even for lower end guilds.

AHAHAHA.
Normal SL is miles more complicated than anything in Classic.
Classic just has an even higher concentration of "not-so-skilled-players" than retail has.

Classic is perfectly fine, but nothing in there is a challenge for normally competent players of today.

[Eldar45]

AHAHAHA.
Normal SL is miles more complicated than anything in Classic.
Classic just has an even higher concentration of "not-so-skilled-players" than retail has.

Classic is perfectly fine, but nothing in there is a challenge for normally competent players of today.

More complicated doesn't mean more difficult. Small screw ups don't wipe you in CN. Even Anub can quickly get out of control on small screw ups, and he's probably the easiest boss in Naxx.

Naxx isn't that hard, but it is way harder than LFR. Anyone claiming that has not killed a single boss in Naxx. LFR is 99% idiot proof. The best LFR raid would wipe over and over on Noth and Anub.

Naxx is somewhere between normal and heroic with some of the bosses being mythic levels of difficulty. Only boss I did on mythic last expansion was the first one in Uldir. He is significantly easier than bosses like Sapp. I would say he's way easier than 4H.

[Echocho]

Two completely similar raids, one is 10 man one if 40 man, they both have the exact same fights exact same everything but scaled to the amount of raiders, which one is easier to clear?

Depends on the mechanics. Back when we had 25m and 10m versions of the same raid some encounters were easier with 10, some with 25.

It's all about how the fight is designed. What isn't a factor however is forming a group and traveling to the instance, that has no effect on the difficulty of the encounters.

[Synical123]

Depends on the mechanics. Back when we had 25m and 10m versions of the same raid some encounters were easier with 10, some with 25.

It's all about how the fight is designed. What isn't a factor however is forming a group and traveling to the instance, that has no effect on the difficulty of the encounters.

I never said it had an effect on difficulty of the encounters I said it is a factor in actually being able to clear the raid.

Would you say it’s harder or easier to get 40 people max gear all together on at one time or 10? Again, I’m going to repeat this for the thousandth time in case you jump off the subject again, I’m not saying it’s THE reason a raid is difficult to clear or even the most deciding factor. I’m saying that it IS something that determines how hard it is to clear a raid or not.

[Echocho]

I never said it had an effect on difficulty of the encounters I said it is a factor in actually being able to clear the raid.

Would you say it’s harder or easier to get 40 people max gear all together on at one time or 10? Again, I’m going to repeat this for the thousandth time in case you jump off the subject again, I’m not saying it’s THE reason a raid is difficult to clear or even the most deciding factor. I’m saying that it IS something that determines how hard it is to clear a raid or not.

It's a factor in running a guild or a pug sure. It's much harder running a guild if you don't have enough members. Has no effect on the difficulty of the raid though.

The skill of the players on the other hand can make a raid seem easier or harder, especially in later expansion where bosses have more than one mechanic and the rotations consists of more than one button.

It's just an illusion though, the difficulty of the encounters is static regardless of the variables. If I bring a raid of people only healers the raid is impossible, yet the difficulty is the same as if I were to bring an optimal group.

[Synical123]

It's a factor in running a guild or a pug sure. It's much harder running a guild if you don't have enough members. Has no effect on the difficulty of the raid though.

The skill of the players on the other hand can make a raid seem easier or harder, especially in later expansion where bosses have more than one mechanic and the rotations consists of more than one button.

It's just an illusion though, the difficulty of the encounters is static regardless of the variables. If I bring a raid of people only healers the raid is impossible, yet the difficulty is the same as if I were to bring an optimal group.

Ok it really seems like I have to spoon feed this to you one more time, because you are SORT of getting it but not really.

I. Am. Not. Talking. About. The. Difficulty. Of. Encounters.

Ok? Just like you said, if you are in a raid full of idiots, a raid can be really hard to clear right? It doesn’t make the mechanics harder, it just makes it more difficult to CLEAR THE RAID, right?

That’s what I’m talking about. There are many variables that come into play when you talk about the variables of CLEARING A RAID.

Gear is a variable, your group is a variable, the amount of attunements is a variable.

This is the argument I’m presenting to you. Someone said “it isn’t difficult to find a group” maybe it isn’t, but it is going to impact how easily you clear to raid is it not?

[T-34]

More complicated doesn't mean more difficult. Small screw ups don't wipe you in CN. Even Anub can quickly get out of control on small screw ups, and he's probably the easiest boss in Naxx.

Naxx isn't that hard, but it is way harder than LFR. Anyone claiming that has not killed a single boss in Naxx. LFR is 99% idiot proof. The best LFR raid would wipe over and over on Noth and Anub.

Naxx is somewhere between normal and heroic with some of the bosses being mythic levels of difficulty. Only boss I did on mythic last expansion was the first one in Uldir. He is significantly easier than bosses like Sapp. I would say he's way easier than 4H.

I wrote normal, not LFR. LFR is made for functional imbeciles.
But to claim that Naxx is more difficult than normal CN for a modern raid team....
I have no doubt that Naxx is very difficult for many guilds, but that only speaks to the quality of the average player in Classic compared to Retail. And by no means do I think that the average player in Retail is good, just that the average player in Classic is worse.

I personally enjoyed the levelling in Classic. Even dungeons had their moments, but raiding is such a snoozefest in my opinion.
But I am very happy that Classic was made and exists. I got to try it, a lot of people were and are very happy playing it and it is good for Blizzard's wallet.

[Utrrabbit]

sure man it isent at all that the raid is hard nonono.....

Anyone who thinks any raid in classic is hard, is just bad.