Poll: Could the Alliance and Horde leaders have defeated Arthas as Lich King?

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I was not arguing with this, I said that Arthas did not play with the heroes, he fought with all the fury that is also in your quote.
    .
    and yet it doesn't say anywhere that he was "Only able to win after a difficult fight".


    The Alliance and Horde are stronger than the Scourge together. If dragons or titan-forged suddenly wanted to intervene and help, it would be too easy.
    No they're not.
    Dragons recovering from a war with the Blue Dragonflight? They'd just add more bodies to the scourge.
    I'm sure if the Titan forged had time to recover and rebuild their numbers, they'd be of some help, but recalling someone's tweet about the LichKing/Scourge would tear apart Lei-Shen's empire apart, I dont see how the Titan Forge would fair any better, especially in the condition that they were currently in.

    I'm sure you do this with those who know lore worse than you, but it doesn't work with me, I'm sorry.
    it's funny how quickly your tone changed when being hit with actual quotes from chronicle. You're not even trying to argue the leaders of the faction anymore.

    It's like you do "know lore worse than" me @_@

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    and yet it doesn't say anywhere that he was "Only able to win after a difficult fight".



    No they're not.
    Dragons recovering from a war with the Blue Dragonflight? They'd just add more bodies to the scourge.
    I'm sure if the Titan forged had time to recover and rebuild their numbers, they'd be of some help, but recalling someone's tweet about the LichKing/Scourge would tear apart Lei-Shen's empire apart, I dont see how the Titan Forge would fair any better, especially in the condition that they were currently in.


    it's funny how quickly your tone changed when being hit with actual quotes from chronicle. You're not even trying to argue the leaders of the faction anymore.

    It's like you do "know lore worse than" me @_@
    He fought with all his fury and froze Tyrion not at the very beginning as in the game. That is, after a long fight. And since he fought with all his fury, this battle was not easy for him.

    Yes, it seems you haven't read the Chronki very carefully.
    https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wor...?id=132397#170
    At the bottom. The Lich King himself admits that if he doesn't get heroes, the Alliance and Horde will win. At the same time, his strategy already almost failed because the Alliance and Horde were advancing too quickly. Luckily for him, the Forsaken intervened in the battle at the Wrathgate and stopped the Alliance and Horde advance.
    The dragons were very busy fighting the blues and considered Malygos a far greater threat than the Lich King. Any Aspect can solo the Lich King. In the Emerald Sanctuary, the magic of the Emerald Dream worked, which instantly turned into dust any servant of Arthas, but the greens were too busy fighting the Nightmare. Here, read, I described here why the Scourge was generally considered a threat. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...e-is-overrated
    What makes you think that the army of Ulduar with 4 Keepers is weaker than the empire mogu with one Lei Shen? I mean, the Scourge couldn't even enter Sholozar Basin properly due to the presence of the Titan Pillars, so it seems that Ulduar's army (especially with Freya at its head) knows how to deal with the undead.

    LOL what? Where did you see this?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    He fought with all his fury and froze Tyrion not at the very beginning as in the game. That is, after a long fight. And since he fought with all his fury, this battle was not easy for him.

    Yes, it seems you haven't read the Chronki very carefully.
    https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wor...?id=132397#170
    At the bottom. The Lich King himself admits that if he doesn't get heroes, the Alliance and Horde will win. At the same time, his strategy already almost failed because the Alliance and Horde were advancing too quickly. Luckily for him, the Forsaken intervened in the battle at the Wrathgate and stopped the Alliance and Horde advance.
    The dragons were very busy fighting the blues and considered Malygos a far greater threat than the Lich King. Any Aspect can solo the Lich King. In the Emerald Sanctuary, the magic of the Emerald Dream worked, which instantly turned into dust any servant of Arthas, but the greens were too busy fighting the Nightmare. Here, read, I described here why the Scourge was generally considered a threat. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...e-is-overrated
    What makes you think that the army of Ulduar with 4 Keepers is weaker than the empire mogu with one Lei Shen? I mean, the Scourge couldn't even enter Sholozar Basin properly due to the presence of the Titan Pillars, so it seems that Ulduar's army (especially with Freya at its head) knows how to deal with the undead.

    LOL what? Where did you see this?
    Arthas would have apparently perished -- fighting against the Alliance and the Horde at the Wrath Gate, per Chronicles, even before the Blight -- although I am not sure if that is entirely canon. Nor would most players necessarily prefer Arthas to be so weakened.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  4. #44
    Quite a lot of leaders could take on the Lich King just fine. His power in single combat isn't all that impressive. He's just a powerful Death Knight, a step up from Mograine but nothing more.

    The Lich King's strength comes from the Scourge and being able to resurrect all the fallen enemies and strengthen his army further. If used properly it's a power that can't be defeated. Only the Burning Legion being immune to being raised by the Scourge and being able to resurrect in the Twisting Nether could win against such a force.

    And come to think of it, I still don't understand why such a tactic wasn't used in Wrath of the Lich King, instead Arthas just acted like Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget and gave away all his army just to have a chance at raising the players as his own. Such a stupid expansion from a lore point of view, the main aspect what made the Lich King and the Scourge a real threat was never addressed.

    Just hit stuff with a weapon enough and you win. Works all the time. Even against unstoppable enemies that can resurrect.

  5. #45
    Pandaren Monk Huntermyth's Avatar
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    best army has azeroth ever saw was defeated at the hands of lich king.

    there is no discussion here. next ?
    war does not determine who is right, only who is left.

  6. #46
    I like how the ridiculous comparisons are being made here:

    1) That the Lich King was trying. His ENTIRE PLAN was to lure Azeroths greatest champions to him and everything he did, including the Halls of Reflection, was part of that. He also basically flat out said he was just fucking around with us in the final battle and it took a Paladin ex-machina to save the day.

    2) Using current power levels of faction leaders instead of what they would have been at the time of ICC. Varian was just a warrior, Thrall hadnt become Green Jesus yet, Anduin was still in pull-ups, Tyrande was just a priestess etc and so on.

    3) Quoting the Chroniki or Lore statements from Blizzard. This is like planning your trip to the Bahamas several years in advance based on what the meteorologist says the weather will be at your vacation time. It can, and will change, multiple times. WoWs "official" lore has been retconned so many times its beyond hilarious.

  7. #47
    Scarab Lord 3DTyrant's Avatar
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    Well, given how Lei Shen is stronger than Arthas in a 1v1 scenario, he'd most likely loose in this scenario of all of these characters vs him alone.
    Shath'mag vwyq shu et'agthu, Shath'mag sshk ye! Krz'ek fhn'z agash zz maqdahl or'kaaxth'ma amqa!
    The Black Empire once ruled this pitiful world, and it will do so again! Your pitiful kind will know only despair and sorrow for a hundred thousand millennia to come!
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Arthas would have apparently perished -- fighting against the Alliance and the Horde at the Wrath Gate, per Chronicles, even before the Blight -- although I am not sure if that is entirely canon. Nor would most players necessarily prefer Arthas to be so weakened.
    Yes, I know, I often refer to this point and Arthas fanboys start to prove so funny that he would just kill everyone in there or something. This is canon and I don't care if Arthas fanboys don't like it. They are a cancer of the Warcraft community and almost as horror as Sylvanas' fanboys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    I like how the ridiculous comparisons are being made here:

    1) That the Lich King was trying. His ENTIRE PLAN was to lure Azeroths greatest champions to him and everything he did, including the Halls of Reflection, was part of that. He also basically flat out said he was just fucking around with us in the final battle and it took a Paladin ex-machina to save the day.

    2) Using current power levels of faction leaders instead of what they would have been at the time of ICC. Varian was just a warrior, Thrall hadnt become Green Jesus yet, Anduin was still in pull-ups, Tyrande was just a priestess etc and so on.

    3) Quoting the Chroniki or Lore statements from Blizzard. This is like planning your trip to the Bahamas several years in advance based on what the meteorologist says the weather will be at your vacation time. It can, and will change, multiple times. WoWs "official" lore has been retconned so many times its beyond hilarious.
    1. His whole plan was to lure the champions because the Scourge could not defeat the Alliance and Horde in direct war. The chronicles directly show that he fought at full strength, and did not play.

    2. Thrall was already a particularly powerful shaman then and Tyrande was a priestess with an experience of 10 thousand years, and not just a priestess.

    3. Do I understand correctly what you mean that we should not refer to the Chronicles because they may be retconned in the future? I am also very amused that at the same time in paragraph 1 you are referring to Arthas's words that he played with us, which was changed in Chronicles 3. That is, you assume that the words of the in-game character are more canonical than Chronicles and Blizzard's words and that it will never be changed (although it did change in the Chronicle). You have not given a single argument and have demonstrated an incredible level of fanboy. You are probably the new British Bulldog.

  9. #49
    0 chance. Tyrande wasn't the night warrior. Malfurion was still sleeping. Sylvanas wasn't juiced. Thrall hadn't been split with the elements by Fandral or whoever did it. Jaina didn't have the iris. Khadgar wasnt around.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by 3DTyrant View Post
    Well, given how Lei Shen is stronger than Arthas in a 1v1 scenario, he'd most likely loose in this scenario of all of these characters vs him alone.
    How does Lei Shen be stronger 1v1 have anything to do with this scenario, I never fully understand why people keep bringing Lei Shen each time there is an Arthas vs debate, you know when it Arthas vs Lei Shen it's not the version we fought in MoP?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    Makes you wonder.. if some of the leaders were so powerful, why didn't they one-shot Arthas and saved everyone a whole bunch of problems?

    Malfurion could've just transform into a bird, fly up and whack him.

    Maaaaaaybe... because they weren't able to do that - ergo - not be so super powerful after all?
    well malfurion wasnt active at that time,but anyways,its all because its a game,99% of the problems we faced in game could have much easily been solved by some faction leaders,the fact that bolvar or tirion didnt just head up to vancleef and kick his ass doesnt mean vancleef was stronger than them

    also a bunch of times it is factions leaders or other non player heroes dealing with baddies,like vs kiljaeden and archimonde or azshara

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    This is a longer, and largely speculatory thread. While you don't have to take this entirely seriously -- I am genuinely very curious all the same. The Lich King was one of the most powerful entities ever to exist, but in the end, he was slain nevertheless by the combined efforts of Tirion Fordring and the champions of Azeroth.

    I am wondering though -- if the mightiest members of the factions, the greatest of the Alliance and the Horde leaders, rather than their champions (who were still common people from ordinary backgrounds) had engaged Arthas, either separately or together, what would have happened? Could they have actually won? Or would all the leaders have inevitably perished?

    First of all, the Lich King was NOT invincible -- he was wounded by the Blight unleashed at the Wrath Gate and was forced to almost immediately retreat; Arthas was actually choking, and might have actually died there had he not done so. Uther was winning their battle at first, and with other experienced Silver Hand paladins such as Turalyon to assist him, might have crushed Arthas (who won according to the novel, because he had the faster weapon and fighting style, not because of combat superiority). Illidan and Kael'thas (whose Artifact weapon Felo'melorn could actually withstand Frostmourne) were also able to fight evenly with him for a while, and under slightly different circumstances and with a little more backup might have actually defeated him; Sylvanas paralyzed and nearly defeated him earlier with a single poisoned arrow (but this was admittedly before he was empowered, so maybe let's forget that). Tirion successfully drove him from Light's Hope Chapel, so he is vulnerable to the Light somewhat.

    If you go to the dungeon, Jaina and Sylvanas were able to reduce his health by nearly half in their reunion / confrontation at the Halls of Reflection, and were able to bind him briefly in place as well with a spell, so he was not entirely immune to either of their powers. I personally think even unaided, leaders like Velen alone could conceivably match or at least hold off Arthas (he briefly stalemated Kil'jaeden after all, and his instantly purifying a fallen naaru seems comparable a feat to the shard of a single naaru in Ashbringer, breaking Frostmourne).

    Let's try to imagine different scenarios, how such a colossal battle would play out --

    1. The Alliance leaders attack Arthas directly -- fighting him at Icecrown at the final battle. As he originally intended, King Varian personally leads the charge against his old friend, backed by Tyrande Whisperwind calling upon Elune's guidance and protection; Malfurion Stormrage invoking the aid of the Emerald Dream and the Ancients and Wild Gods (the green dragons' powers are especially strong against the Scourge in Dragonblight); Magni Bronzebeard; and Velen, summoning the naaru's power and doing what he can to predict Lich King's moves, massively healing the other leaders constantly. Add in Jaina Proudmoore fighting her ex-lover's Frost with Frost, sweeping away his Remorseless Winters with her Blizzard, launching enormous Pyroblasts to break through his defenses, and also manipulating time and space using arcane magic, and Gelbin, equipped with his high-level technology and providing aerial support soaring around in his robo-suit, if you want as well.

    - Essentially, Tank: Varian; Healer: Velen; DPS: Tyrande, Malfurion, Magni (possibly with Jaina and Gelbin in the background)


    2. The Horde leaders attack Arthas directly -- Cairne Bloodhoof leading the charge, the tauren having the greatest stamina and strength out of all of them; Thrall with his full shaman powers engaging Arthas, using his considerable power over Life to counter the powers of Arthas over Death; Lor'themar Theron providing melee and ranged backup from the sidelines; Vol'jin using his own unique shadow hunter powers to support and heal his allies; Sylvanas doing what she can to disrupt his Scourge powers, flying around firing arrows and using her Banshee scream and her other abilities, and perhaps secretly and portably weaponizing the Blight as well as an emergency move if all else fails to defeat him

    - Essentially, Tank: Cairne; Healer: Thrall; DPS: Lor'themar, Vol'jin, and Sylvanas (possibly with additional backup from Rommath, Liadrin, Saurfang and Garrosh)


    3. All the Alliance and Horde leaders put aside their differences and unite to attack Arthas together.

    - Essentially, Tanks: Varian, Cairne; Healers: Velen and Thrall; DPS: Tyrande, Malfurion, Magni, Jaina, Gelbin fighting alongside Lor'themar, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Liadrin, Rommath, Saurfang and Garrosh


    4. Other scenarios, such as Jaina engaging Arthas again, with the combined forces of all the members of the Council of Six at her side -- what would have happened in this scenario? Or the Kirin Tor trying to drop a massive mana bomb on Icecrown? Could other beings such as the Dragon Aspects have easily defeated him, Alexstrasza and the red dragons trying to incinerate him with their flames?

    What do you think honestly could have happened? If the Alliance and Horde leaders / Council of Six / Alexstrasza and the other Dragon Aspects have attacked Arthas?
    pfff hard one. Some where sleeping in the dream. But yeah. lets put it this way. faction raid took a whole raid to do. So they where already powerful. so yes.

  13. #53
    Lich King's real power was regularly questioned for years, but with the new lore of Shadowlands presenting the Lich King as the conduit for Jailer's power (who is >=Titan level) it's again safe to say that no force could defeat him in normal circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    I like how the ridiculous comparisons are being made here:

    1) That the Lich King was trying. His ENTIRE PLAN was to lure Azeroths greatest champions to him and everything he did, including the Halls of Reflection, was part of that. He also basically flat out said he was just fucking around with us in the final battle and it took a Paladin ex-machina to save the day.

    2) Using current power levels of faction leaders instead of what they would have been at the time of ICC. Varian was just a warrior, Thrall hadnt become Green Jesus yet, Anduin was still in pull-ups, Tyrande was just a priestess etc and so on.

    3) Quoting the Chroniki or Lore statements from Blizzard. This is like planning your trip to the Bahamas several years in advance based on what the meteorologist says the weather will be at your vacation time. It can, and will change, multiple times. WoWs "official" lore has been retconned so many times its beyond hilarious.
    tyrande was extremly strong even before night warrior thing,horde leadership were afraid of her in the war before that point saying she and malfurion could kick all their asses in a fight

    also your 3rd point is pure insanity...it doesnt matter if they may or may not change something in the future...you play with the cards you are dealt now lol,also the comparison is simply stupid....we know weather changes for a fact,and artha's own inner monologue isnt something they would retcon,usualy retcons come with in universe explanations or changing somethings backstory completly like draenei origin etc...but something a person said to themselves cant be retconed

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    How does Lei Shen be stronger 1v1 have anything to do with this scenario, I never fully understand why people keep bringing Lei Shen each time there is an Arthas vs debate, you know when it Arthas vs Lei Shen it's not the version we fought in MoP?
    People like to use that quote and purposely disregard the part that says "At the height of their prime". Lei Shen at the height of his prime was much more powerful than what we faced and they also like to disregard the part where Kosak says "Army vs Army, Arthas would tear his empire to SHREADS".

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post
    Lich King's real power was regularly questioned for years, but with the new lore of Shadowlands presenting the Lich King as the conduit for Jailer's power (who is >=Titan level) it's again safe to say that no force could defeat him in normal circumstances.
    Am I correct in that if Illidan received power from Sargeras, then no one can defeat him? What dumb argument ''my dad is stronger than yours'' style?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    People like to use that quote and purposely disregard the part that says "At the height of their prime". Lei Shen at the height of his prime was much more powerful than what we faced and they also like to disregard the part where Kosak says "Army vs Army, Arthas would tear his empire to SHREADS".
    Lei Shen at the prime of his powers is a high tier Wild God / Weakened Titan Keeper. People like to refer to this quote because after it the fanboys of Arthas instantly stop talking nonsense about the fact that Arthas is stronger than Azshara / Aspects / Archimonde, Kil'jaeden (and maybe Mannoroth) / Elemental Lords / Aegwynn (?). Fanboys of Arthas stop talking nonsense about the fact that Arthas is some kind of super god of death because he is the only one who defeated us.

    Also, we are not talking about armies here. Although we do know from the Chronicles that the Alliance and Horde are stronger than the Scourge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    but something a person said to themselves cant be retconed
    Have you ever heard about Sylvanas?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Am I correct in that if Illidan received power from Sargeras, then no one can defeat him? What dumb argument ''my dad is stronger than yours'' style?

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    Lei Shen at the prime of his powers is a high tier Wild God / Weakened Titan Keeper. People like to refer to this quote because after it the fanboys of Arthas instantly stop talking nonsense about the fact that Arthas is stronger than Azshara / Aspects / Archimonde, Kil'jaeden (and maybe Mannoroth) / Elemental Lords / Aegwynn (?). Fanboys of Arthas stop talking nonsense about the fact that Arthas is some kind of super god of death because he is the only one who defeated us.

    Also, we are not talking about armies here. Although we do know from the Chronicles that the Alliance and Horde are stronger than the Scourge.

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    Have you ever heard about Sylvanas?
    what sylvanas inner monologue was retconed?

  18. #58
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    what sylvanas inner monologue was retconed?
    The one from Before the Storm.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The one from Before the Storm.
    dunno about what you mean,if you could be more specific?what did she say,and it was changed completly?

  20. #60
    malfurion would clap him

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