If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Triceron]

I don't know... i have this feeling it would be more like a Metamorphosis. call it a hunch

That's probably because you're basing your concepts on War3 stats instead of adapting it as a WoW class.

Bearform in WC3 didn't boost armor, WoW Bearform has highest armor value of all classes. Think hard about this.


If you are talking about the ability mechanics, Metamorphosis is a limited duration ability in all 3 games it appears in (WC3, HOTS, WoW). Robo Goblin is a Permanent form with no duration no cooldown in both WC3 and HOTS. Blizzard could do anything they want translating that into WoW.

[The One Percent]

Tinker, much to the anger of everyone who wants their self insert fanfic character fully realized in game.

[jellmoo]

I actually have no problem with the "academy" idea, though I think I more likely scenario would be similar to a Druid where you start in caster mode until you learn your first form, which would be around level 5 or so. That could easily be implemented as your trainer shows up (or some holographic image of Gazlowe or Mekkatorque) and informs you that its time to construct your mech. Conversely, your first 5 levels could be you gathering the necessary materials to construct your first mech (lvl 5) which is rather crude, and then when you reach level 10 you construct your actual mech.

Heck, I'd be down for them to parody the first Iron Man film. Like you're a famous Gnome or Goblin inventor and then you get kidnapped by troggs or trolls, and you escape them by building your first mech.

I'm not sure how the Druid form unlocks work with the leveling scheme, but I do think that this could be fun. I'm not sure how well it would go over with the player base mind you. The Goblin starting area is notoriously disliked. That may have something to do with length admitedly, but I think that tone is also a pretty big issue.

With that said, hot shot pilot doesn't really fit the Tinker concept. The Tinker is an inventor first a foremost. He's like Tony Stark, not Maverick from Top Gun.

Except that isn't true. I mean, I get that that is your vision of the class, but it's not some hard set rule that a Tinker class needs to be an inventor first and foremost. There are a myriad of routes that Blizzard could take when it comes to the narrative they present.

Again, invention is kind of the core aspect of the Tinker concept. They're inventors, first and foremost.

If we look at Monks though, the assumption could have been that they are brewers first and foremost. They aren't. Blizzard took a piece and wrapped the Monk class around it. Tinkers could be presented in the same way.

Yeah I disagree with that assessment. Just because the hero of the game (you) can do it, doesn't mean that everyone can do it. In other words, just because you're a Tauren priest engaged in engineering doesn't mean the entire Tauren race is involved in Goblin/Gnome engineering, or even that the entire Tauren race could become involved in Goblin/Gnome engineering.

I mean... No. The point is that the entire Tauren race is capable of learning Engineering. Saying that they can make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs but can't make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs doesn't make a ton of sense.

There's also a difference of purpose. Why are you building bombs, weapons, guns, etc. in engineering? Are you building those weapons for personal use, or are you building those devices to sell to others? A Tinker doesn't sell their devices. Whatever a Tinker builds is for personal use. A warrior dabbling in engineering is building items and knick-knacks to primarily sell them other players. You could also argue that does devices are sellable because they're more simple to use than a Tinker's devices. This is head canon I know, but it does make sense when you think about it.

Like you said, hat's your headcanon though. Saying that a Tinker doesn't sell their stuff is made up. Are you really saying that Blackfuse never sold anything to the highest bidder?

Yeah, but here's the thing; Classes themselves tend to be rather narrow, and technology is an extremely broad concept. I mean just consider a technology class in WoW and could have 5-10 class ideas that don't override each other. However, if you REALLY look at the WoW expansion classes, they aren't very broad at all. They actually stick rather close to their WC3 roots. The Death Knight is essentially an armored horseman with a broad sword just like he was in WC3. The Monk class is pretty much the Pandaren Brewmaster to the point where all other Monk types were ignored. Demon Hunters are essentially the half-demon elves that Illidan was, despite people saying that human and orc DHs make sense, etc.

Ehhhh, base classes are broad enough to fit multiple archetypes. A Warrior can be a frothing Barbarian, and blademaster, an honourable samurai, or an armored juggernaut. A Mage can be a battle mage that runs in the thick of combat, a tactician that owns the battlefield, a master of time and space. Base classes tend to be broad enough to incorporate multiple archetypes. Things tend to get more specific with hero classes. If we have a Tinker as a base class, I would be very surprised if it didn't hold true that more than a single archetype wasn't rolled into it.

When we look at the Tinker from WC3 what do we see? We see a Goblin using a large mechanical device to fight with. Later that machine can turn into a mech that the Goblin can drive around in, and he can switch in and out of that form at will. When you consider that, and the various mechs we see Goblins and Gnomes using in WoW today, it looks pretty clear where this is heading.

It's not a 1 to 1 thing though. Death Knights don't fight from horseback. Not every Monk spec deals with the brewing of beer. Demon Hunters don't run around in demon form all the time. Blizzard takes bits and pieces and uses them to make their classes. You could be entirely right and Blizzard might think "Tinker class equals using a Mech! That's their whole schtick!" But I don't think it's as written in stone as you seem to.There;s a lot of really cool Tinkery stuff in the game that happens outside of a mech too, and I for one would love to see that in a playable class.

Again, I don't find the inclusion of Vulpera to be a huge lore-breaking situation. If Blizzard incorporates them as a Tinker race option, and give them two sentences worth of lore justifying it, I could see most players just shrugging their shoulders and not caring at all.

It kinda feels like you have this set narrative in your head for what the Tinker class needs to be, and you manipulate everything around to fit that narrative. Because when it comes to the class, everything is super specific and needs to match up exactly with stuff from other source materials. But when it comes to races, you're more than happy to crack open the established lore to remove a race that clearly makes sense and create new lore to shoehorn in a race that doesn't.

Would players just shrug their shoulders? No idea. But I do think that Alliance players wouldn't be too happy to see two of the least played races have access to a shiny new class, whereas the Horde side gets access to it on one of their most popular races.

Well that's the thing; If you limit this to Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races, it won't be rampant, it'd just be something that those quirky races do. You're a small race with a lot of brains but not a lot of strength, so you're going to build a mech to compensate.

That's a weird argument to make though. It's essentially Blizzard making a new class that they don't think would be popular enough to have widespread adoption. If that's their view, I can't imagine they would bother making it.

I mean, in all seriousness would a Goblin stand toe-to-toe with a Tauren and beat them in a physical contest? Never. However a Goblin in a mech;

This is true of a lot races though. Put a Human or a Dwarf in the same situation and I'd say exactly the same thing.

[Teriz]

I'm not sure how the Druid form unlocks work with the leveling scheme, but I do think that this could be fun. I'm not sure how well it would go over with the player base mind you. The Goblin starting area is notoriously disliked. That may have something to do with length admitedly, but I think that tone is also a pretty big issue.

Yeah, Druids get their forms over the course of leveling. They start out in caster form, just being able to do wrath. At some point they pick up Cat form, and later they pick up Bear and Moonkin form. I think that could work with a Tinker as well, with them starting in Pilot mode and building their mech mid-way through their starter zone.

Also Goblins can just go through Exlie's Reach instead of doing the old Cataclysm quest line. Much better experience.

Except that isn't true. I mean, I get that that is your vision of the class, but it's not some hard set rule that a Tinker class needs to be an inventor first and foremost. There are a myriad of routes that Blizzard could take when it comes to the narrative they present.

Well that's pretty much what a Tinker is.

WC3 Lore:

Goblins are known for their mechanical expertise and clever, though sometimes peculiar, inventions, and the Tinker is certainly no exception. With his Claw-Pack/Hammer-Tank combo, the Tinker's ingenuity is undeniable. Though his parts may sometimes fail and the occasional explosion does occur, the spirit and enthusiasm of this Hero are never diminished. There truly is more to the Goblin Tinker than meets the eye!

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

If we look at Monks though, the assumption could have been that they are brewers first and foremost. They aren't. Blizzard took a piece and wrapped the Monk class around it. Tinkers could be presented in the same way.

Well no, the Brewmaster was doing martial arts from the start;

WC3 Lore:

Hailing from the secretive Pandaren Empire, the mighty brewmasters travel the world in search of exotic ales and the finest brewed spirits. These affable warriors rarely seek out danger or trouble, preferring instead to spend their time concocting new and tasty beverages for any brave enough to imbibe them. However, if attacked, the laughing brewmasters bring all of their pandaren agility and ferocity to bear! They are peerless warriors and world class drinkers all in one!

And;

A warrior Hero, exceptional at absorbing damage and melee combat. The Brewmasters of Pandaria have emerged from the bamboo forests of their ancestors to bring their unique fighting style (and robust ales) to the highest bidder. Attacks land units.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

Brewmasters were always shown to be brewers and master martial artists. It's the "Drunken Master" trope popular in a variety of Kung fu movies.

I mean... No. The point is that the entire Tauren race is capable of learning Engineering. Saying that they can make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs but can't make bombs, guns, gizmos and mechs doesn't make a ton of sense.

Where do you see Tauren making mechs or gizmos in general?

Like you said, hat's your headcanon though. Saying that a Tinker doesn't sell their stuff is made up. Are you really saying that Blackfuse never sold anything to the highest bidder?

No, he was a mercenary who sold his services, not his devices. It wasn't like Blackfuse sold the Iron Juggernaut to Garrosh and just left. Garrosh built him an entire siege works where he could design and build weaponry for the True Horde. It's like comparing someone who makes wind up toys on eBay with Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Ehhhh, base classes are broad enough to fit multiple archetypes. A Warrior can be a frothing Barbarian, and blademaster, an honourable samurai, or an armored juggernaut. A Mage can be a battle mage that runs in the thick of combat, a tactician that owns the battlefield, a master of time and space. Base classes tend to be broad enough to incorporate multiple archetypes. Things tend to get more specific with hero classes. If we have a Tinker as a base class, I would be very surprised if it didn't hold true that more than a single archetype wasn't rolled into it.

Monks were a base class, and they were pretty much a single archetype; Completely based on Pandaren martial arts, had the entire list of WC3 abilities, and having brewing and brews all over the class.

It's not a 1 to 1 thing though. Death Knights don't fight from horseback. Not every Monk spec deals with the brewing of beer. Demon Hunters don't run around in demon form all the time. Blizzard takes bits and pieces and uses them to make their classes. You could be entirely right and Blizzard might think "Tinker class equals using a Mech! That's their whole schtick!" But I don't think it's as written in stone as you seem to.There;s a lot of really cool Tinkery stuff in the game that happens outside of a mech too, and I for one would love to see that in a playable class.

DKs fighting from Horseback at all times would be a balancing issue, and cause armor problems.

In MoP EVERY Monk spec had the ability to brew drinks.

Demon Hunters never had a permanent Metamorphosis spell in WC3.

Considering that the Tinker entering and existing mech mode was exactly like how Druids changed forms in WC3, it wouldn't be surprising to see Blizzard use a similar mechanic for entering and exiting mech piloting.

It kinda feels like you have this set narrative in your head for what the Tinker class needs to be, and you manipulate everything around to fit that narrative. Because when it comes to the class, everything is super specific and needs to match up exactly with stuff from other source materials. But when it comes to races, you're more than happy to crack open the established lore to remove a race that clearly makes sense and create new lore to shoehorn in a race that doesn't.

Would players just shrug their shoulders? No idea. But I do think that Alliance players wouldn't be too happy to see two of the least played races have access to a shiny new class, whereas the Horde side gets access to it on one of their most popular races.

Well to be fair to Gnome players, they tend to have the better looking mechs.

That's a weird argument to make though. It's essentially Blizzard making a new class that they don't think would be popular enough to have widespread adoption. If that's their view, I can't imagine they would bother making it.

They would bother making it for the simple reason that there is an audience who plays technology-based classes in sword and sorcery RPGs. This is why pretty much every MMO on the market today has a tech-based class of some sort. Blizzard no doubt recognizes this, but at the same time don't want a glut of mechs overriding the overall theme of WoW which is sword and sorcery. Limiting it to small races means that it becomes a quirky thing that only certain races do instead of this massive Azerothian industrial revolution that would turn off a large segment of players. Further, players who have played WoW for any length of time recognize that Goblins and Gnomes ride around in mechs and do tech stuff anyway.

Doing it this way gets that audience of players wanting a technology class, and it preserves what WoW is at its core.

This is true of a lot races though. Put a Human or a Dwarf in the same situation and I'd say exactly the same thing.

I disagree, Varian and Muradin could wreck a tauren.

Any Goblin or Gnome warriors in comparison?

Gazlowe or Mekkatorque could stand a chance..........

In their mechs.

[Ielenia]

He's an inventor who invented a mech. Warriors don't do that.

My warrior built a mech. Several, in fact.

Sorry, I'm not interesting in debating your personal opinion on WoW lore.

You're basically admitting that you cannot argue lore, which gives the impression you have no leg to stand on when the discussion is about lore. Which says a lot about your personal concept for a tech class.

And again: what I wrote is not an opinion. It's a fact. You have not demonstrated any difference between tinker and engineer that doesn't heavily and often entirely depend on game mechanics, making it meaningless in the lore.

You do know that if something was pulled from a non-canon source and made canon, that completely obliterates your argument here right? The fact that this has happened multiple times ends this conversation.

No, it does not. Re-read what I wrote: "That some abilities found themselves copied over to WoW is meaningless because that does not make the overwhelming majority of abilities within HotS that did not get ported over to WoW any less non-canon than before."

[quote]The whole point about this is that your personal opinion about WC3:R doesn't gel with Blizzard's statement about what they consider canon.

Also there are lore inconsistencies in all of Blizzard's games, including WoW.

Such as? Also, what happens when such inconsistencies are discovered? Blizzard either retcons everything to fit, or changes things again. Are you going to argue that ogre buildings in Azeroth prior to the draenei arriving were actual draenei structures?

Blizzard, as far as I know, has not said a single word regarding WC3:Reforged's lore inconsistencies. And considering the massive backlash they got because of that game... my take is that the least they're reminded that game exists, the better for them.

- - - Updated - - -

Tinker, much to the anger of everyone who wants their self insert fanfic character fully realized in game.

But you're okay with tinker fans getting their "self insert fanfic character" fully realized in the game?

[Teriz]

My warrior built a mech. Several, in fact.

And that never happened in lore. It's simply something you did with your character in your spare time.

You're basically admitting that you cannot argue lore, which gives the impression you have no leg to stand on when the discussion is about lore. Which says a lot about your personal concept for a tech class.

We're not arguing lore, we're arguing your opinion on what the lore is. Sorry, I have no interest in that discussion.

No, it does not. Re-read what I wrote: "That some abilities found themselves copied over to WoW is meaningless because that does not make the overwhelming majority of abilities within HotS that did not get ported over to WoW any less non-canon than before."

Again, yes it does. If Blizzard willingly pulls content from non-canon sources and makes them canon, and has stated that they will continue to do that in the future, what is and is not canon is completely meaningless. In other words ANYTHING that is non-canon now has the potential to become canon in the future, so that renders the entire discussion meaningless.

Such as? Also, what happens when such inconsistencies are discovered? Blizzard either retcons everything to fit, or changes things again. Are you going to argue that ogre buildings in Azeroth prior to the draenei arriving were actual draenei structures?

The Draenei race itself being a rather huge example, since it was completely different than their backstory in WC3. Illidan getting killed by Arthas in their duel in TFT, yet coming back in TBC for "reasons" only to get killed again by adventurers, but comes back AGAIN via a retcon where Maiev captured him (which didn't happen in TBC) for Legion. Warlocks losing metamorphosis after the entire Black Harvest storyline made zero sense and has never been resolved. What's currently happening in Shadowlands is starting to retcon how the Lich King was created in the first place.

So yeah about lore..... who cares?

[razorpax]

There is nothing in the current Mag'har Orcs that show any propensity towards tech. In addition, if we go with the notion that smaller races would rely on technology to even the playing field physically with larger, stronger races, Mag'har Orcs kind of go against that completely. Also I would argue that Vulpera's knowledge in Alchemy and their adaptive, intelligent nature gives them a natural opening towards technology.



Depends on the race. Again, Vulpera are brand new, so their "lore" is malleable.



But size is still and always be a concern. Again, it might not bother you that an Orc or a Draenei are miniaturized inside a mech about the size of a standard Orc or Draenei, but others (and Blizzard) might be.



The Mag'har didn't create any tech. The Goblins created the tech and the Orcs built it. I'm sure you'll find some Orc siege masters or whatever, but the bottom line is that Goblins were the brains, Orcs were the brawn. This is why after the Goblins left the Mag'har reverted back to being primitives.

In the end, Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races simply make the most sense for the Tinker on multiple levels. Having an Orc piloting a mech borders on silliness and begins to unravel the texture of the game itself.

- - - Updated - - -



Interesting ideas. I would avoid another leather class though. I think another mail class would help quite a bit on multiple levels.

Blizzard doesn’t care because they already do it in a mount which is more permanent than a CD

Vulpera do have lore

Maghar used tech in WoD...unless Garrosh had a hidden army of Goblins but I don’t recall seeing any in the factories we attacked or the train we attacked

So the orcs have more established tech than the midget furries and the lore backs them up

So for minimum effort blizz could make them a tinker and it’s more believable than the cart foxes but you think “the size will be a problem for blizzard and others” when we already have blizzard not caring about the size or the player’s opinions.

Just admit you don’t want any race higher than your knee to be able to make tech

[Teriz]

Blizzard doesn’t care because they already do it in a mount which is more permanent than a CD

The mech form would be permanent, not a CD, especially in the case of a tank spec. The only way it would make sense as a CD would be if the claw pack is implemented.

Which in turn would limit it to smaller races.

Vulpera do have lore

And it’s lore based on being stifled and oppressed. Their entrance into the horde showed how adaptable and resourceful they are.

Maghar used tech in WoD...unless Garrosh had a hidden army of Goblins but I don’t recall seeing any in the factories we attacked or the train we attacked

You didn’t see ANY Goblins in WoD working for the Blackfuse company? Did you ever play through mythic HFC? There were loads of Goblins in the starting section before the Iron Reaver.

So the orcs have more established tech than the midget furries and the lore backs them up

The only thing the lore showed was that the mag’har were too dumb to expand the Goblin tech left behind. Instead of riding in tanks or mechs, they went back to riding wolves and using swords.

So for minimum effort blizz could make them a tinker and it’s more believable than the cart foxes but you think “the size will be a problem for blizzard and others” when we already have blizzard not caring about the size or the player’s opinions.

Just admit you don’t want any race higher than your knee to be able to make tech

I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.

[razorpax]

The mech form would be permanent, not a CD, especially in the case of a tank spec. The only way it would make sense as a CD would be if the claw pack is implemented.

Which in turn would limit it to smaller races.


And it’s lore based on being stifled and oppressed. Their entrance into the horde showed how adaptable and resourceful they are.




You didn’t see ANY Goblins in WoD working for the Blackfuse company? Did you ever play through mythic HFC? There were loads of Goblins in the starting section before the Iron Reaver.



The only thing the lore showed was that the mag’har were too dumb to expand the Goblin tech left behind. Instead of riding in tanks or mechs, they went back to riding wolves and using swords.



I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.

Eh using this thread as a sample size I’d say no

[LemonDemonGirl]

I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.

Moon Guard sure would lol

[The One Percent]

But you're okay with tinker fans getting their "self insert fanfic character" fully realized in the game?

It doesn't bother me on the account of tinkers filling a few roles that other classes that have been suggested don't.

-No class fantasy overlap with other existing classes. Necromancers for example overlap heavily with mage, warlock and death knight. Dark rangers overlap with hunters who use shadow magics. While there isn't a problem with some "mash-up" style classes, it's more interesting to have something completely new.

-Hasn't missed the boat for a sensible time to release with content related to them. Technology has a big presence in warcraft compared to many other fantasy settings, so there is always a good moment to release a tech based class. Necromancer boat sailed with WotLK and possibly SL, dark ranger with BFA, dragonsworn with a dragon isle expansion (which in itself would have released after cata if it were going to release, so doubtful we will have an expansion based on that area).

-Segue from dragonsworn, tinkers have actual heavy presence in the lore compared to the other popular suggestions as opposed to something like dragonsworn which only show up in the non canon tabbletop RPG.

-Tinkers would be a good candidate to FINALLY get another mail class in the game (although dark rangers would fit this as well). Another good gameplay reason would be tinkers easily having a tank, dps and healing spec, which is always good for a class since it increases content viability.

Personally, the only class that comes close to making as much sense to add next as tinker is necromancer or to just not add any new classes at all and focus on adding specs to existing classes to improve versatility. Maybe a necromancer spec for dks that focuses on ranged casting and summoning many undead minions like demonology as opposed to the one or two minions that unholy uses. Honestly, though, I could care less what they add next as long as it's fun to play in gameplay and isnt another leather or plate class.

Also, I honestly doubt many peoples' self inserts would be "green manlet in a ghettorigged mech" as opposed to "beautiful elf who can turn into a dragon".

[Unbelievable]

Heck, I'd be down for them to parody the first Iron Man film. Like you're a famous Gnome or Goblin inventor and then you get kidnapped by troggs or trolls, and you escape them by building your first mech.

With that said, hot shot pilot doesn't really fit the Tinker concept. The Tinker is an inventor first a foremost. He's like Tony Stark, not Maverick from Top Gun.

There's also a difference of purpose. Why are you building bombs, weapons, guns, etc. in engineering? Are you building those weapons for personal use, or are you building those devices to sell to others? A Tinker doesn't sell their devices. Whatever a Tinker builds is for personal use. A warrior dabbling in engineering is building items and knick-knacks to primarily sell them other players. You could also argue that does devices are sellable because they're more simple to use than a Tinker's devices. This is head canon I know, but it does make sense when you think about it.

Well that's the thing; If you limit this to Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races, it won't be rampant, it'd just be something that those quirky races do. You're a small race with a lot of brains but not a lot of strength, so you're going to build a mech to compensate.

I mean, in all seriousness would a Goblin stand toe-to-toe with a Tauren and beat them in a physical contest? Never. However a Goblin in a mech;



Has a fighting chance.

Dude. You have a bad case of Iron Man obsession.

Every profession can sell their stuff. You, hardly, have a case. in lore it is stated that:
"Successful engineers use their inventions to solve problems and make life easier, faster, and better for themselves and their companions." not to make a profit.

You'd be surprised but, Goblins are stronger than they look:
"Despite their small size goblin bruisers are very strong, employing the use of nets and high powered rifles."
"It was also said by Broxigar in The War of the Ancients that goblins are much stronger than their size would indicate."

He's an inventor who invented a mech. Warriors don't do that.



I don't want engineering items to be anymore powerful than they are now. I simply want access to the Tinker abilities already present in WoW. That has nothing to do with engineering at all. You're the one who can't seem to recognize that it's two different things.



Please read an entire quote before you comment on it please.



If Blizzard gave Mekkatorque the spark reactor and it's an obvious reference to Iron Man, why are you complaining that I'm pointing it out?



Because I really don't need any. Vulpera as Tinkers is simply the best choice to keep the factions equal Tinker-wise. If that means that someone doesn't get a Dwarf or Draenei Tinker, that's just too bad.



Yeah, it would require a two sentence explanation. Relax, everything will be just fine.



Okay.....



If the Tinker is mech based, then it stands to reason that the healing spec would also be mech-based. Especially if you're dealing with base abilities that are bomb/missile based.



WC3 and HotS Tinkers still launch and deploy devices via a mech, even outside of Robo-Goblin form.



Dark Iron Dwarves are more technologically inclined than standard dwarves. It would make little logical sense for mainline Dwarves to be Tinkers and not Dark Irons.



Yeah, we're not talking about any of those classes, we're talking about Tinkers.

Also the Vulpera wouldn't cause a chain reaction. It would stop with them since it would 2 for 2 on both factions, and Vulpera are the Goblin allied race.



I'm sure you believe that....





That's lore based as well.



Except Demon Hunters never had permanent Meta form in WC3 or WoW. Tinkers did have permanent mech form in WC3 and the various NPCs we're seeing inside mechs also are in permanent mech forms.



Why would it need to? Just make it like Druids where they have a neutral caster form with its own set of base abilities. In the case of a Tinker, they can have a "pilot mode" where they're outside of the mech and have device-based abilities like a laser gun, a personal teleportation device, a personal shield, etc.

In addition, the pilot form wouldn't be useless. Let's say for example you're about to die while inside your mech? Well, you can use an Eject ability that blows up your mech for AoE damage and projects you 20-30 ft forward. The upside is that you survived and escaped. The downside is that you can't re-summon your mech for a set amount of time, so now you need to rely on your pilot abilities with your health at critical.

Because you think that it's a proof of Mekkatorque being an Iron Man.

You could say that about any race/class combination. "just apply a two sentence explanation". You know where it will get us? everybody getting everything with a minimal explanation.

You really do need, though. Even Demon Hunter's elf restriction follows lore.

That's if the Alchemist gets integrated into the Tinker class.

When you addressed something as a mech, you didn't mean claw pack.

Yet, Dwarves are listed in lore as Tinkers, while Dark Iron Dwarves are not.
"From steam armor to long-range rifles, dwarves employ science for the art of war. Thus, most of their inventions are armor, weapons or war machines. Dwarven inventions include gunpowder, firearms, siege works, war golems and other weapons of war."

"Dark Iron technology is about military and manufacture.

Examples of known technology developed by the Dark Iron:

Stone golem
Dark Iron golem
Omnotron Defense System
War golem
Dark Iron Mole Machine"

It would cause a chain reaction because people would want to know why a race of nomadic primitives get to be Tinkers but, other races with actual established lore, don't.

The question is, what version are they going to use for the mech? the WC3 version or the HotS version?

Robo-Goblin Counters
The Robo-Goblin's weakness is that he cannot be healed by friendly spells. If you focus your attacks on him, you might be able to kill him before he reverts into his organic form so he can be healed.

[jellmoo]

Well that's pretty much what a Tinker is.

WC3 Lore:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

A few points:

1. It doesn't say anything about being a genius level inventor ahead of all others. It mentions a high level of ingenuity, but also that his inventions will fail and his spirit and enthusiasm are high. This isn't a description of Tony Stark. It's closer to Booster Gold.

2. Even if it said "Tinkers are the best inventors in all the land, certainly way ahead of an Engineer", Blizzard would still have plenty of room to play with that definition when it comes to interpreting a class out of material from a game released nearly 20 years ago.

Well no, the Brewmaster was doing martial arts from the start;

WC3 Lore:


And;


http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

Brewmasters were always shown to be brewers and master martial artists. It's the "Drunken Master" trope popular in a variety of Kung fu movies.

But that isn't what all of the Monk specs are. They took the Brewmaster and extrapolated an awful lot from it and then smashed in a bunch of other stuff to make the Monk class. But also, you bolded the wrong part:

These affable warriors rarely seek out danger or trouble, preferring instead to spend their time concocting new and tasty beverages...

The Brewmaster has heavily changed from what it was in order to create the Monk class (along with a lot of the lore around Pandaria)

Where do you see Tauren making mechs or gizmos in general?

Every single Tauren player that takes Engineering as a profession, for one. Any NPCs that teach it, for another.

No, he was a mercenary who sold his services, not his devices. It wasn't like Blackfuse sold the Iron Juggernaut to Garrosh and just left. Garrosh built him an entire siege works where he could design and build weaponry for the True Horde. It's like comparing someone who makes wind up toys on eBay with Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

But... That's literally selling his stuff. Regardless, you can't say with any degree of certainty that: Engineers sell their inventions and Tinkers do not.

There just isn't any real info to support that.

Monks were a base class, and they were pretty much a single archetype; Completely based on Pandaren martial arts, had the entire list of WC3 abilities, and having brewing and brews all over the class.

Monks are multiple archetypes in one. Yes, the drunken master exists, but so does the Wushu cinema style martial artist, the Monk class from D&D, the chi style healer, the peasant warrior, etc... Blizzard took one piece and expanded on it a ton. Certainly a lot more than they did with either Death Knights or Demon Hunters. Thus far, base classes have been much more general, whereas hero classes have been incredibly specific.

DKs fighting from Horseback at all times would be a balancing issue, and cause armor problems.

Why?

In MoP EVERY Monk spec had the ability to brew drinks.

Every monk had some sort of beverage they frank, but unless I am misremembering, there wasn't anything surrounding them brewing the stuff.

Demon Hunters never had a permanent Metamorphosis spell in WC3.

Except if we're using Illidan as the example of the class NPC, he has demon form up at all times.

Considering that the Tinker entering and existing mech mode was exactly like how Druids changed forms in WC3, it wouldn't be surprising to see Blizzard use a similar mechanic for entering and exiting mech piloting.

Sure. It wouldn't be. It also wouldn't be terribly surprising to see Blizzard do something different in order to create a broad class surrounding the concept of tech.

Well to be fair to Gnome players, they tend to have the better looking mechs.

Aesthetics are very personal though.

They would bother making it for the simple reason that there is an audience who plays technology-based classes in sword and sorcery RPGs. This is why pretty much every MMO on the market today has a tech-based class of some sort. Blizzard no doubt recognizes this, but at the same time don't want a glut of mechs overriding the overall theme of WoW which is sword and sorcery. Limiting it to small races means that it becomes a quirky thing that only certain races do instead of this massive Azerothian industrial revolution that would turn off a large segment of players. Further, players who have played WoW for any length of time recognize that Goblins and Gnomes ride around in mechs and do tech stuff anyway.

Doing it this way gets that audience of players wanting a technology class, and it preserves what WoW is at its core.

But this assumes an awful lot. This assumes that the number of people that want a tech based class is higher than those that are against it. It assumes that people will play it even if it's only represented in game by races that have been unpopular. It assumes that Blizzard is willing to put in all of the time and effort for a class that they internally believe won't see high adoption.

It's a ton to assume.

I disagree, Varian and Muradin could wreck a tauren.

Any Goblin or Gnome warriors in comparison?

Gazlowe or Mekkatorque could stand a chance..........

In their mechs.

If we are talking any sense of realism? Absolutely not. There is no way that either Varian or Muradin should stand wny sort of chance against a 9 foot tall, 700 pounds of raw muscle beast whose reach is easily twice theirs and can probably uproot a large tree with a swing of a weapon.

Like, maybe if he's a pacifist farmer Tauren, but even then...

If you take a Human and give him the option of fighting a giant, frothing at the mouth Tauren, and his options are either a sword or a high tech mech that shoots lasers and rockets, which option do you think he's going to pick?

[razorpax]

Give me my dragon sworn with shadow priest style resource and I’ll accept the midget inventors

[Teriz]

A few points:

1. It doesn't say anything about being a genius level inventor ahead of all others. It mentions a high level of ingenuity, but also that his inventions will fail and his spirit and enthusiasm are high. This isn't a description of Tony Stark. It's closer to Booster Gold.

2. Even if it said "Tinkers are the best inventors in all the land, certainly way ahead of an Engineer", Blizzard would still have plenty of room to play with that definition when it comes to interpreting a class out of material from a game released nearly 20 years ago.

1. Goblin Tinkers tend to have that reputation. Gnomish Tinkers tend to build more reliable tech.
2. Well we don't have to pretend that they're way ahead of the engineering profession, they are way ahead of the engineering profession.

They'll play with the definition, but there's no way this concept would be turned into Top Guns or Macross.

But that isn't what all of the Monk specs are. They took the Brewmaster and extrapolated an awful lot from it and then smashed in a bunch of other stuff to make the Monk class. But also, you bolded the wrong part:

These affable warriors rarely seek out danger or trouble, preferring instead to spend their time concocting new and tasty beverages...

The Brewmaster has heavily changed from what it was in order to create the Monk class (along with a lot of the lore around Pandaria)

But again, all of the Monk's specs in MoP revolved around brewing various types of beverages.

Every single Tauren player that takes Engineering as a profession, for one. Any NPCs that teach it, for another.

Which isn't lore based. In lore there's only one Horde champion, and that's you the player. So in lore there's only one Tauren (if that) learning Goblin/Gnome engineering.

But... That's literally selling his stuff. Regardless, you can't say with any degree of certainty that: Engineers sell their inventions and Tinkers do not.

There just isn't any real info to support that.

Again, it's like someone selling their wind up toy on eBay versus Boeing building a new stealth bomber. Also I seriously doubt Blizzard would give players the option to start up their own tech company and become mercenaries for some rulers. Though that would be awesome.

Why?

Constant movement buff. Also I'm sure DK players would like to fully see their legs and waist instead of it always being blocked by a Horse. Death Knights got a nice mount buff instead (On a Pale Horse).

Every monk had some sort of beverage they frank, but unless I am misremembering, there wasn't anything surrounding them brewing the stuff.

Brewmaster:
Brewing: Elusive Brew: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Elusive_Brew

Windwalker:
Brewing: Tigerseye Brew: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Tigereye_Brew

Mistweaver:
Brewing: Mana Tea: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Mana_Tea

Except if we're using Illidan as the example of the class NPC, he has demon form up at all times.

Except the WC3 Unit's form wasn't permanent. And it wasn't permanent when it appeared as a Warlock spell.

Sure. It wouldn't be. It also wouldn't be terribly surprising to see Blizzard do something different in order to create a broad class surrounding the concept of tech.

Based on past expansion class inclusions it would be.

Aesthetics are very personal though.

Maybe, but Gnome tech looks a lot less janky than Goblin tech. I see most people gravitating towards that over the more raggedy/wild Goblin designs.

But this assumes an awful lot. This assumes that the number of people that want a tech based class is higher than those that are against it. It assumes that people will play it even if it's only represented in game by races that have been unpopular. It assumes that Blizzard is willing to put in all of the time and effort for a class that they internally believe won't see high adoption.

It's a ton to assume.

Well the goal is to gain new players with your new class, (currently there is no technology class in WoW) and not alienate existing players. Again you do that by introducing something that has been established in WoW for decades (Goblins and Gnomes use technology), and not rocking the boat. Again, it's a win/win; WoW gets a technology class to attract new and returning players, and existing players don't feel that WoW is turning into Warhammer. They can't feel that way if it's restricted to races that are tech based and always been associated with tech, but they could feel that way if Orcs, Dwarves, Draenei, Blood Elves, Nightborne, etc. all get mechs and can also be Tinkers.

Ironically, the class being attached to the least popular races in the game currently could actually be a benefit.

I'm sure the majority of existing players don't want a new class at all, but again, the existing player base isn't the target of a new class entry. The target for new classes are people not playing WoW right now, but have the potential to pick it up if a class comes along that appeals to them.

If we are talking any sense of realism? Absolutely not. There is no way that either Varian or Muradin should stand wny sort of chance against a 9 foot tall, 700 pounds of raw muscle beast whose reach is easily twice theirs and can probably uproot a large tree with a swing of a weapon.

We're just talking about the game here. In the game we've had multiple examples of Varian smashing up enemies who were Tauren size or larger. The same applies to Mauradin. Those two are among the best warriors who ever lived.

If you take a Human and give him the option of fighting a giant, frothing at the mouth Tauren, and his options are either a sword or a high tech mech that shoots lasers and rockets, which option do you think he's going to pick?

Probably the sword, because they'd have no idea how to work the high tech stuff.

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Dude. You have a bad case of Iron Man obsession.

Every profession can sell their stuff. You, hardly, have a case. in lore it is stated that:
"Successful engineers use their inventions to solve problems and make life easier, faster, and better for themselves and their companions." not to make a profit.

More pointless semantic arguments.....

The bottom line is this; if someone wants to play as a Goblin or a Gnome in a mech like they see nearly every prominent Gnomes and Goblins doing, they simply can't do it. That's a gameplay disparity that needs to be filled, especially considering that there is a hero that could fill that void quite easily.

Because you think that it's a proof of Mekkatorque being an Iron Man.

Nope, just a possible clue to what direction they may take the character in the future.

[Revamp Man]

Give me my dragon sworn with shadow priest style resource and I’ll accept the midget inventors

building up your draconic fury and then bam grow the dragon wings and the dragon scales then BAM just beat the epic crap outta the big bad boss that caused the dragon isles situation to get worse that we came to clean up

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1. Goblin Tinkers tend to have that reputation. Gnomish Tinkers tend to build more reliable tech.
2. Well we don't have to pretend that they're way ahead of the engineering profession, they are way ahead of the engineering profession.

They'll play with the definition, but there's no way this concept would be turned into Top Guns or Macross.



But again, all of the Monk's specs in MoP revolved around brewing various types of beverages.



Which isn't lore based. In lore there's only one Horde champion, and that's you the player. So in lore there's only one Tauren (if that) learning Goblin/Gnome engineering.



Again, it's like someone selling their wind up toy on eBay versus Boeing building a new stealth bomber. Also I seriously doubt Blizzard would give players the option to start up their own tech company and become mercenaries for some rulers. Though that would be awesome.



Constant movement buff. Also I'm sure DK players would like to fully see their legs and waist instead of it always being blocked by a Horse. Death Knights got a nice mount buff instead (On a Pale Horse).




Brewmaster:
Brewing: Elusive Brew: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Elusive_Brew

Windwalker:
Brewing: Tigerseye Brew: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Tigereye_Brew

Mistweaver:
Brewing: Mana Tea: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Mana_Tea




Except the WC3 Unit's form wasn't permanent. And it wasn't permanent when it appeared as a Warlock spell.



Based on past expansion class inclusions it would be.



Maybe, but Gnome tech looks a lot less janky than Goblin tech. I see most people gravitating towards that over the more raggedy/wild Goblin designs.



Well the goal is to gain new players with your new class, (currently there is no technology class in WoW) and not alienate existing players. Again you do that by introducing something that has been established in WoW for decades (Goblins and Gnomes use technology), and not rocking the boat. Again, it's a win/win; WoW gets a technology class to attract new and returning players, and existing players don't feel that WoW is turning into Warhammer. They can't feel that way if it's restricted to races that are tech based and always been associated with tech, but they could feel that way if Orcs, Dwarves, Draenei, Blood Elves, Nightborne, etc. all get mechs and can also be Tinkers.

Ironically, the class being attached to the least popular races in the game currently could actually be a benefit.

I'm sure the majority of existing players don't want a new class at all, but again, the existing player base isn't the target of a new class entry. The target for new classes are people not playing WoW right now, but have the potential to pick it up if a class comes along that appeals to them.



We're just talking about the game here. In the game we've had multiple examples of Varian smashing up enemies who were Tauren size or larger. The same applies to Mauradin. Those two are among the best warriors who ever lived.




Probably the sword, because they'd have no idea how to work the high tech stuff.

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More pointless semantic arguments.....

The bottom line is this; if someone wants to play as a Goblin or a Gnome in a mech like they see nearly every prominent Gnomes and Goblins doing, they simply can't do it. That's a gameplay disparity that needs to be filled, especially considering that there is a hero that could fill that void quite easily.



Nope, just a possible clue to what direction they may take the character in the future.

dude you cant really judge anybodies arguments considering you have moved the goal post so much you beat superman in a race across the planet

[Teriz]

dude you cant really judge anybodies arguments considering you have moved the goal post so much you beat superman in a race across the planet

Really? You think someone’s opinion on lore is valid in a discussion about future class concepts where the lore is altered constantly?

[jellmoo]

1. Goblin Tinkers tend to have that reputation. Gnomish Tinkers tend to build more reliable tech.
2. Well we don't have to pretend that they're way ahead of the engineering profession, they are way ahead of the engineering profession.

1. But you're trying to use the verbatim definition of what a Tinker is from WC3 to solidify your point. The argument can't be "we have to use WC3 as the ultimate source of info on this, unless it isn't quite that so it's different."

2. There is no real evidence backing that up though.

They'll play with the definition, but there's no way this concept would be turned into Top Guns or Macross.

I don't see why not though. If every other base class can handle multiple archetypes, I seriously don't see why a Tinker class would be so different that it incorporates "genius inventor" and no other archetype.

But again, all of the Monk's specs in MoP revolved around brewing various types of beverages.

Except they don't. Just drinking something in combat doesn't give any sort of indication that these are master brewers that travel the world brewing beer and learning new brewing secrets.

Which isn't lore based. In lore there's only one Horde champion, and that's you the player. So in lore there's only one Tauren (if that) learning Goblin/Gnome engineering.

It doesn't need to be lore based though. I can log on to any server, roll a Tauren and learn engineering. I can level that up and make guns, mechs, gizmos, explosives, etc... It is a player option. If a Tinker is somebody that makes guns, mechs, gizmos and explosives, it's bloody weird that I can make these things as a profession, but not as a class.

Again, it's like someone selling their wind up toy on eBay versus Boeing building a new stealth bomber. Also I seriously doubt Blizzard would give players the option to start up their own tech company and become mercenaries for some rulers. Though that would be awesome.

You're using hyperbole here to describe what engineering does though. It's not like all they make is trinkets and baubles. Engineers can make things that defy the laws of real world science.

Being able to start a tech conglomerate would be awesome though...

Constant movement buff. Also I'm sure DK players would like to fully see their legs and waist instead of it always being blocked by a Horse. Death Knights got a nice mount buff instead (On a Pale Horse).

Except a constant movement buff already exists in Feral. It's definitely doable. Blizzard chose not to go this route. They could easily do the very same with literally any new class they decide to make. They could make a Tinker with a permanent mech, one with a mech cooldown, or one without a mech at all. The point is that they aren't married to what was present in WC3 and handcuffed to what was present there.

Brewmaster:
Brewing: Elusive Brew: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Elusive_Brew

Windwalker:
Brewing: Tigerseye Brew: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Tigereye_Brew

Mistweaver:
Brewing: Mana Tea: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewing:_Mana_Tea

One of them is literally a tea though...

Regardless, the Brewmaster is the only spec that had any mention of brewing or booze in the write up. Largely because it's the only one to have that archetypal identity. Which is fine. Blizzard took a narrow concept, and made a class out of it that stretched it to include more archetypes. This is what base classes are.

Except the WC3 Unit's form wasn't permanent. And it wasn't permanent when it appeared as a Warlock spell.

But Illidan is. If we're going to look at Illidan from HotS as a precedent, we have to also appreciate the fact that changes do exist when it comes to deriving a class from a named NPC.

Based on past expansion class inclusions it would be.

Except it really would be. We see that in what was presented in the Death Knight, Monk and Demon Hunter.

Maybe, but Gnome tech looks a lot less janky than Goblin tech. I see most people gravitating towards that over the more raggedy/wild Goblin designs.

But again, personal preference. A lot of people like the Horde motif of things looking brutal and dark and dislike the sterile, clean and high tech look of alliance tech. The Horde is already the more populous faction. Add a class that features one of the most popular races Horde side and only the least popular Alliance side and imbalance will increase.

Well the goal is to gain new players with your new class, and currently there is no technology class in WoW and not alienate existing players. Again you do that by introducing something that has been established in WoW for decades (Goblins and Gnomes use technology), and not rocking the boat. Again, it's a win/win; WoW gets a technology class to attract new and returning players, and existing players don't feel that WoW is turning into Warhammer. They can't feel that way if it's restricted to races that are tech based, but they could feel that way if Orcs, Dwarves, Draenei, Blood Elves, Nightborne, etc. all get mechs and can also be Tinkers.

Alternate take: You create a new tech based class to fill the niche, allow more races to become a member of the class which in turn drives popularity, and you don't make a mech a permanent form so the players never really have the in your face issue of seeing mechs everywhere. It's a win/win.

I'm sure the majority of existing players don't want a new class at all, but again, the existing player base isn't the target of a new class entry. The target for new classes are people not playing WoW right now, but have the potential to pick it up if a class comes along that appeals to them.

I can't believe that the majority of players don't want a new class at all. People like shiny new things. People like new things to try, new things to do.

Regardless, when it comes to metrics of player growth and player retention, there's not a ton we can really do unless Blizzard releases the numbers. My guess would be that a new class doesn't do a ton to shift the needle when it comes to acquiring new players, otherwise we wouldn't have gone two expansions without one.

We're just talking about the game here. In the game we've had multiple examples of Varian smashing up enemies who were Tauren size or larger. The same applies to Mauradin. Those two are among the best warriors who ever lived.

Sure, let's move away from an outlier example like Varian then. Average Human soldier vs average Tauren soldier. The human should stand absolutely no chance. There should be no appreciable difference between a human or a Gnome fighting the thing. The Tauren should be able to mulch either one in seconds.

Probably the sword, because they'd have no idea how to work the high tech stuff.

Except the human might very well know all about the tech stuff because he's an Engineer.

[Revamp Man]

Really? You think someone’s opinion on lore is valid in a discussion about future class concepts where the lore is altered constantly?

this hasnt been a discussion about classes
this has been over 100 pages of you arguing that the only ones able to be a tinker class are the races of azeroth too small for the darkmoon fair coaster
you cant even stay consistent
you argue against others concepts stating that either the concept doesnt work or the class is unnecessary because its too close to other stuff we have in the game but if someone makes that same argument to you then you either change the point or completely ignore it

just look at the tinker discussion
you had your concept and said "no the other races cant do it only my midgets"
lore wasnt a reason and in fact you argued that lore is meaningless compared to game mechanics
then when someone points out the mechanics cant be the same you argue lore
then someone made the claw pack concept and that became your flagship for a couple pages still arguing other races couldnt do it
you made the argument that the clawpack since it was in WC3 was definitely needed
then you changed that
then you gave in on some of the other races
then you changed that
and here we are again with you fighting for midget exclusivity

if you think that anything in this thread is beyond peoples opinions toward non existent classes then i have no idea what to tell you because thats all any class concept is its just a bunch of opinions even those based on WC3 its just the opinions of some nerds on a forum none of which carry any more weight than anyone else even a murloc race with a full support spec because heck its in hearthstone and since thats a blizzard game that means its canon right

so yeah everyone has a valid opinion on this topic and if you arent interested in hearing those opinions then create a tinker specific thread because i have seen about 4 other classes that seem interesting and they keep getting drowned out by your autistic screeching about tinkers. It isnt just your fault though as theres people who for some reason decide to keep up a legit conversation and discussion thinking it will lead to anything more than you playing high and mighty with your mini megazord concept.

so we have what dragonsworn and the warden class and the necromancer class and the priestess of the moon class which can be part of the warden class or the night warrior class that have all popped up here along with a bard like class which could work if the buffs to damage and everything work similar to the legion paladin blessing

tinker literally has nothing new to be discussed
the mech size can be scaled down for bigger races and those annoyed by it can be a midget race
the lore for the races can be changed to make it fit especially if you think the vulpera can "but but maghar orcs didnt innovate it" and the vulpera are still using wagons drawn by some slow animals "the smaller races need tech to match up in strength to the larger races" well they shouldnt be able to be strength based classes then
we know the lore to it
we know the abilities that have been introduced for a decade whether or not they are actually going to be there or not
arguing over these obviously wont achieve anything beyond adding more posts that you will repeat the next leak season anyway...ghostbuster tinkers

so please instead of spending so much time saying "no that cant happen...but dont you dare say mine cant happen exactly how i have it set in my concept" i mean heck man you even say a dragonsworn cant happen without a full dragon form...which has no lore to back it up but you claim its the only thing that makes sense

someone makes that claim to your tinker...well its a terrible terrible thing

[Ielenia]

And that never happened in lore. It's simply something you did with your character in your spare time.

So now you're talking about lore? You're flip-flopping between game mechanics and lore when it suits you, aren't you?

We're not arguing lore,

And now we're no longer arguing lore again? Decide. You can't have both.

we're arguing your opinion on what the lore is. Sorry, I have no interest in that discussion.

No, we're not. We're arguing lore. You're just trying to dismiss my arguments as opinions, as if your own opinion is somehow superior to the others'.

Again, yes it does.

No. No, it does not. And that is a fact. HotS and what's within it is non-canon to the Warcraft franchise. That is an undeniable fact.

The Draenei race itself being a rather huge example, since it was completely different than their backstory in WC3. Illidan getting killed by Arthas in their duel in TFT, yet coming back in TBC for "reasons" only to get killed again by adventurers, but comes back AGAIN via a retcon where Maiev captured him (which didn't happen in TBC) for Legion. Warlocks losing metamorphosis after the entire Black Harvest storyline made zero sense and has never been resolved. What's currently happening in Shadowlands is starting to retcon how the Lich King was created in the first place.

Wrong examples, for three reasons. First, because they're already addressed in my previous post: "Blizzard either retcons everything to fit, or changes things again." Second, because you're talking about a linear time of events, one event happening after the other. With WC3:Reforged, we have events happening now in the game that happened before the story of WoW began, and have been altered and made inconsistent with what the current lore shows. And third, last but not least: some of the things that happened in WC3:Reforged are not just simple inconsistencies, but impossibilities. It is impossible for the ogres on Azeroth to have draenei buildings, for example.

So yeah about lore..... who cares?

Certainly not you, considering how much disregard you have for it when advocating for your favorite fan-made class concept.

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And it’s lore based on being stifled and oppressed. Their entrance into the horde showed how adaptable and resourceful they are.

Which is a far, far cry from the vulpera being technological geniuses to the level of gnomes and goblins.

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I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.

You don't have to bet. Make a thread poll, and ask the question, which one would people prefer: orc tinker, or vulpera tinker.

But you won't, right? It shows that, despite your bravados, you're nowhere near as confident in your assertions as you proclaim you are.

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I’m willing to bet that people would buy a Vulpera as a Tinker way more than an Orc.

You don't have to bet. Make a thread poll, and ask the question, which one would people prefer: orc tinker, or vulpera tinker.

But you won't, right? It shows that, despite your bravados, you're nowhere near as confident in your assertions as you proclaim you are.

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Well no, the Brewmaster was doing martial arts from the start;

That is demonstrably false. Please stop spreading misinformation. The Pandaren Brewmaster was doing absolutely zero martial arts back in Warcraft 3.