I Hate Borrowed Power

[Soeroah]

I like it, but I do miss out characters canonically learning from our experiences.

Back around the Wrath/Cata/MoP era our characters would learn new skills based on raid or dungeon boss abilities, and it really felt like our characters would pick up new abilities from their adventures. Since borrowed power came into the picture with Legion they could have been letting us learn our Artifact abilities or Azerite traits/essences permanently, baseline or talent, but those that have done so have generally replaced other abilities or talents.

I still feel after Legion we could have had a new talent row based on our artifacts quite happily.

[Alanar]

You can hate borrowed power, that's fine. But do you hate it more than larger ability pruning passes?

Borrowed power was a solution to the situation we arrived in where those huge ability prunings are done and everyone raises hell over it. I'd much prefer to lose less more regularly than be subject to huge cuts all at once.

The problem with borrowed powers pre SL was that some specs just didnt work without it, that is not how it should work.

The fundation needs to be working atleast or else it will just not be fun. Shadow is the major example here. Now that it has a good ground it doesnt feel as bad as bfa.

[tru]

I could make an essay on why, but to keep it short -- it's just too damn good this time around. Many of the SL class abilities are quite lame, but then you have some very fun abilities that work in such harmony with our kits, spells like Abomination Limb, The Hunt, Hallowed Ground and many others. It's not too early or too late to speak about this so please don't bring up silly arguments like that, imagine SL is ending tomorrow and you have to forever say goodbye to these beautiful abilities. Beautiful, another reason I'm so fond of them, because compared to my big old fireball they look way more up-to-date and impressive.

I wouldn't mind it if class abilities of our covenant of choice became permanent. Balance is also a non-issue, provided some of them are tuned down a little. Classes felt stale, they still do to some degree but we desperately need new skills & effects, this much is apparent at this point.

If none of these races become unlocks or have something permanent transfer over or each faction getting 4 covenant back on Az? would b pretty stupid.

What needs to happen is the same with every borrowed power system they have made or are gonna make... Let it die.

The problem is they don't do enough with class design and the talent system they seem to forget about.

Oh there is one covenant ability you are in love with? Well they probably coulda done a lot more with your spec and chose not to so next expansion you are going to have to rely on whatever bullshit they pull down over your eyes again while you lap it up.

It's like idk building a truck and forgetting to weld the frame together. It might be shiny with all it's tacked on bells and whistles but it still has a core issues and they just keep making them cause they can. So next year model you get upgraded shit but it's still got a messed up frame.

[Kumorii]

Would hate if classes are exactly the same every expansion. I enjoy the new twists which makes the classes feel somewhat fresh.

In short. I don't mind borrowed power.

[Amariw]

Its a system put in place cuzz mop couldnt give you more abilities, it already had too much. It just wasnt feasible to keep adding stuff.

But sometimes i wish we just kept the mop design. Some specces were absolutely amazing. All MoP warlocks, especially demonology, were just so much fun. Can't help but miss those even if current iteration is alright.

[Santti]

I've come to see this "borrowed power" whining as some sort of bandwagon people just jump to. There is nothing wrong with it.

What else would you prefer they did? Just kept adding more and more, until we are a mess of different systems from different expansions? Or perhaps never adding anything, ever again to avoid this "issue"? Sure, it might seem a little bit silly to unlock some power we already had at some point in the past, but that's honestly perfectly fine. It gives something to look forward to, playing through the expansion. And depending on how the powers unlocked, it might also be interesting gameplaywise as well, like having to pick between 2, when previously you might have had both.

This is, of course, assuming Blizzard balances it properly, so it doesn't feel like having to unlock a 4th tire to your car.

This is such a non-issue.

[nonameelf]

We always had borrowed power. Remember tier sets?

Also, Blizzard changes classes every single expansion anyway. So everything about a class in any given expansion could technically be considered "borrowed power" since it may or may not still be there next expansion.

[haiyken]

Honestly, while I like my covenant abilities, I don't feel they're that integral to my character identity and power. I have a character in each covenant and, of course, the abilities are mostly fun, I'm not that attached to them. They could disappear right now and I wouldn't feel my character is missing that much. By comparison, the Legion artefacts felt much better and tied to each of my characters. Both the item and its unlockable talents felt really good while playing. The loss at the end of the expansion felt much greater. That said, I think the Shadowlands system is much better for the long term evolution of the game. I don't think any ability from the covenants will become baseline, and that's fine. The abilities not being tied to my spec or even my class (fantasy wise) makes it more easy to let them go.

[Razion]

The problem with borrowed powers pre SL was that some specs just didnt work without it, that is not how it should work.

The fundation needs to be working atleast or else it will just not be fun. Shadow is the major example here. Now that it has a good ground it doesnt feel as bad as bfa.

This doesn't seem like a problem with a borrowed power system as much as it seems like a problem with the base ability kits. And while I wouldn't blame borrowed power for this, they can always introduce abilities from borrowed power permanently to fix specs as long as they're taking away as much as they're introducing so that bloat doesn't become a problem so that huge cuts don't have to be made all at once again. Well, it's not like they necessarily have to avoid huge cuts later entirely, but players were really vocal about it last time so I just think avoiding those huge cuts would be beneficial to everyone in the long run is all.

[Nightstalker]

Guess you also hated rating decay from lvl60-70 or whatever your first re-leveling process was. Or rather you didn't care and now you know some buzzwords.

[Shelly]

Fun fact, every expansion is its own game. Borrowed power just emphasizes this.

Really is a shame they didn't allow 3xHot Blood Cold Steel to become a talent or legendary for Fury Warriors though.

[huth]

This doesn't seem like a problem with a borrowed power system as much as it seems like a problem with the base ability kits.

That's the entire point Alanar was making.

[Geckoo]

Borrowed power is not the problem, execution is.

The idea of borrowed power working as something that adds on how a spec plays for a period of time is great, that's exactly what tier sets did and that's why they worked so well. But when it comes to things like azerite, legiondaries, covenants... then it becomes a problem because they are no longer using borrowed power to add on top of a working spec, but as a way to complete how the spec should work for the entire expansion, trying to use them to offer an illusion of choice on something that should've always been part of the spec either as baseline or as a talent choice.

I do understand why it works for them as devs, it's just another source of content since you can put those glorified talent choices behind RNG, grind walls, sell them as new systems... making them something that the player needs to earn just to be able to play with their spec in the way is meant to be played. The thing is that i don't really mind having part of my spec becoming something that i have to unlock or earn at the start of the expansion. What i hate is the illusion of choice presented via several systems of useless clutter combined with almost all of it going away when the next expansion comes out.

In my opinion, the talent system needs a massive overhaul and become the main focus when it comes to add powers, even borrowed ones, to your spec.

[Gasparde]

Dunno how y'all can mention Tier Sets and Covenants or Artifacts or HoA in the same breath. There's borrowed power where casting 2 Ice Lanes in a row increases your Frostbolt damage by 20% and there's here's a new button, a new talent tree and 20 new passive boni that are all basically old tier bonuses.

Tier sets mildly (sometimes rather noticeably indeed) changed the feel of your rotation ever so slightly for like 3-6 months. These borrowed powers of late completely dictate the way your spec functions - and without them your spec just becomes a shallow husk. Meanwhile losing your tset bonus... yea, it sucked going from CDs giving you full resources to not having that - but fucking losing Wake of Ashes hurt quite a bit more.

[Bigbazz]

It's either borrowed power or powercreep.

Pick one.

Eh? Powercreep has never been as bad as it has been in the most recent expansions.

[Alanar]

This doesn't seem like a problem with a borrowed power system as much as it seems like a problem with the base ability kits.

That is exactly what I said.

- - - Updated - - -

That's the entire point Alanar was making.

Yup, thanks.

[Raugnaut]

Legion's Artifact/Legendary system was far more impactful than Covenants and it's gone. You'll live. It's not like borrowed power is a new concept anyway. Classic's Legendaries eventually stopped being relevant. As did TBC's. As did Shadowmourne in WotLK. As did the Legendary Staff and Rogue daggers in Cata. As did the cloak in MoP. As did the ring in WoD. See a pattern here yet?

Eh, tbh, some of that isn't quite accurate.

Atiesh remained relevant quite a bit into TBC for the hundred-odd casters who had it back in the day. Thunderfury was the BiS tanking weapon for warriors and the new and improved Prot paladins until significant nerfs hit it. Sulfuras was the only legendary that quickly became irrelevant, and tbh it was more of an epeen stick then an actually good weapon even in classic. Additionally, while the Warglaives were replaced in Naxx, the legendary RNG bow had to additionally be nerfed going into WotLK.

Additionally, the ONLY two legendaries that had an actual affect on rotations were the Cata daggers and the WoD ring - Everything else was more or less passive, unlike the Artifact, Azerite, and especially Covenant Abilities.

With that being said, I can completely see Blizzard adding the 4 covenant abilities as the next talent tier. We haven't recieved a new talent tier since WoD, and are quite overdue for it.
Hell, they may even wind up adding the covenant class abilities in as a talent tier this expansion rather then the next. Last I checked, there are heavy imbalances in both covenant ability power as well as covenant ability distribution. There is not a single instance in which all 4 covenants have a even split in terms of class representation, and even in the base case scenario it's more of a difference between PvP/Raid oriented picks and M+ picks, with only a very small percentage of players picking subpar covenants.

Additionally, Blizzard has yet to balance any Covenant ability on the PvE side of things, though they did hammer down a PvP outlier significantly.

So, yes, I can completely see Blizzard turning the 4 covenant class abilities into a new talent tier, with the utility ability remaining tied to a specific faction.

[czarek]

Im pretty sure those abilities will have their place in next expansion talent tree or spec class. More or less they will stay with us.

[WskyDK]

As much fun as convoke is to heal with, I'm going to miss my soulshape blink more than anything else (resto druid)

[erifwodahs]

Legion's Artifact/Legendary system was far more impactful than Covenants and it's gone. You'll live. It's not like borrowed power is a new concept anyway. Classic's Legendaries eventually stopped being relevant. As did TBC's. As did Shadowmourne in WotLK. As did the Legendary Staff and Rogue daggers in Cata. As did the cloak in MoP. As did the ring in WoD. See a pattern here yet?

Legion system did not fully go away. Same case here - it just changes how the class is played and when it goes there will have to be something what fills that gap or it will end up like start of BfA.
There is a difference between a passive which changes a game or a case like WoD - mini BL or dmg increase, can't even remember what it did, and damn signature ability. Trust me, when Divine Toll goes, all of prot paladins will notice. Will my legendary be noticable? Sure, a bit but there are only few leggos which feel anything more than just a passive.