Swap 10 affix with tyrannical/fortified

[Dobbydorh]

Would anyone agree that swapping the pride affix with tyrannical/fortified would be a nice change to the game?

Currently, it seems to me, that people struggle big time finishing keys in time, especially during tyrannical weeks. I like the idea that people has to learn the mechanics early on, but it seem to me, that isn't the case. It gets frustrating when you're trying to gear an alt solo, and people die left right n' center due to lack of knowledge on mechanics.
As of right now, I think alot would agree with me in terms of saying that a +10 key is way easier than a +9 - this honestly shouldn't be the case.


If the affixes were swapped, "the casual" playerbase would get to see the pride affix while actually being capable of timing keys below 10. I'm not saying it should be free, but honestly right now, it just seems to be uphill for alot of people who normally plays keys below +10.

[Segus1992]

I don't really disagree, but I can imagine their argument is that putting the seasonal affix at +10 is ensuring that if the affix is trash or super annoying, at least the casuals won't encounter it. In the current season it'd work, but can't say the same for previous ones.

[Xath]

Just delete tyrannical and fortified they aren't necessary.

[Biomega]

Tyrannical is the problem. It's been almost universally loathed by casuals and top-tier players alike, and people have been calling for it to be replaced with something else since BFA. I guess Blizzard doesn't want to.

[Tziva]

Just delete tyrannical and fortified they aren't necessary.

Tyrannical is the problem. It's been almost universally loathed by casuals and top-tier players alike, and people have been calling for it to be replaced with something else since BFA. I guess Blizzard doesn't want to.

Basically this. Everyone hates Tyrannical, even on lower keys where it's "easy," it is still tedious as fuck and slows things down. Some bosses do become extremely challenging, but others are just "great, the same zzzzzz thing for 948570485704785 phases."

Make the +2 affix just a baseline "Fortified" trash difficulty and kill Tyrannical entirely. If they want two alternating affixes, do something like bring Teeming back and make it alternate with Fortified. One week you get hard trash, one week you get more trash.

I think the special seasonal affixes make more sense at 10. They often introduce a challenge that can't really be scaled down well to easiest difficulties or have impacts on routes that don't really make sense to burden on players who just want to do a laid back 4 with their buddies. They are fine at 10.

[Segus1992]

Basically this. Everyone hates Tyrannical, even on lower keys where it's "easy," it is still tedious as fuck and slows things down. Some bosses do become extremely challenging, but others are just "great, the same zzzzzz thing for 948570485704785 phases."

Make the +2 affix just a baseline "Fortified" trash difficulty and kill Tyrannical entirely. If they want two alternating affixes, do something like bring Teeming back and make it alternate with Fortified. One week you get hard trash, one week you get more trash.

Honestly I don't think removing Tyrannical is the solution. The idea of "alternating between trash and bosses being the focus" is fine to me, but doing that by mainly making the bosses bullet sponges isn't very creative or interesting (or fun in practice). If the purpose is for boss tactics to be more important, maybe make avoidable damage doubled while leaving boss health the same.

Don't mind the idea of Teeming being added though, could be a rotation of the three.

[Kaver]

Just delete tyrannical and fortified they aren't necessary.

I agree. The majority of feedback indicates that players don’t enjoy tyrannical and fortified, so it seems like this is just a matter of Blizzard being too proud to remove it. It seems like Blizzard have a fear of failure. Everytime they make content that players don’t like they always insist on keeping pushing it. It’s completely okay to try out content that doesn’t work. The important thing is to accept when something doesn’t work and then removing it.

[Garymorilix]

Would anyone agree that swapping the pride affix with tyrannical/fortified would be a nice change to the game?

Currently, it seems to me, that people struggle big time finishing keys in time, especially during tyrannical weeks. I like the idea that people has to learn the mechanics early on, but it seem to me, that isn't the case. It gets frustrating when you're trying to gear an alt solo, and people die left right n' center due to lack of knowledge on mechanics.
As of right now, I think alot would agree with me in terms of saying that a +10 key is way easier than a +9 - this honestly shouldn't be the case.


If the affixes were swapped, "the casual" playerbase would get to see the pride affix while actually being capable of timing keys below 10. I'm not saying it should be free, but honestly right now, it just seems to be uphill for alot of people who normally plays keys below +10.

1) Learn the mechanics.

2) No it is not. Shadowlands dungeons are pretty linear. The trash % count is usually solved by doing the same route you do on hc/m0 and the Prideful affix requires tanks to know how to pull things.
It might be easier if your tank knows his shit but then again, everything is easier when you're carried.

3) No they wouldn't. If they can't learn simple boss mechanics why do they deserve to even time anything?
M+ by itself was designed to provide extra challenge for those who are willing to tackle it.
If you are not willing, why should anyone care?

[Tziva]

Honestly I don't think removing Tyrannical is the solution. The idea of "alternating between trash and bosses being the focus" is fine to me, but doing that by mainly making the bosses bullet sponges isn't very creative or interesting (or fun in practice). If the purpose is for boss tactics to be more important, maybe make avoidable damage doubled while leaving boss health the same.

Yeah, I'm fine with that if they really want to alternate. Or add an extra mechanic or something, but just leave that mechanic the same across all bosses and all Tyrannical weeks so it's not too much of a learning curve for people just stepping into m+ for the first time. Their simplicity is the strength of the current +2 affix and part of the reason I think it should stay at that level, after all. The only problem with either of these ideas is that that makes Fortified "the slow weeks" which I do think is something that would be ideal to avoid. All weeks should have fairly similar pacing. I don't love Teeming as an affix, but I do think it's a good alternative to Fortified for that reason.

But they should do something. As it stands, in the best cases, Tyrannical feels boring and a waste of time. On the harder bosses with unavoidable damage, it's overly punishing and can mean late-stage deaths when you finally run out of cooldowns.

[Segus1992]

Yeah, I'm fine with that if they really want to alternate. Or add an extra mechanic or something, but just leave that mechanic the same across all bosses and all Tyrannical weeks so it's not too much of a learning curve for people just stepping into m+ for the first time. Their simplicity is the strength of the current +2 affix and part of the reason I think it should stay at that level, after all. The only problem with either of these ideas is that that makes Fortified "the slow weeks" which I do think is something that would be ideal to avoid. All weeks should have fairly similar pacing. I don't love Teeming as an affix, but I do think it's a good alternative to Fortified for that reason.

But they should do something. As it stands, in the best cases, Tyrannical feels boring and a waste of time. On the harder bosses with unavoidable damage, it's overly punishing and can mean late-stage deaths when you finally run out of cooldowns.

I agree Tyrannical needs to change - just that it shouldn't be outright removed (as a concept).

To avoid Fortified being "the slow week", a smaller amount of extra health can remain on it too, turning it into something like "bosses deal 50-100% more avoidable damage, and have 15% increased health".

Finally, the problem with Teeming is the AoE caps the game has in Shadowlands, it would slow down dungeons as well, unless groups start to use uncapped AoE to handle it (which they probably would). I don't think it's a huge issue or an important addition at all, just could be interesting to shake things up even at the lowest levels.

[TyrianFC]

The biggest problem, as shown by this thread, is players just want everything thrown at them for free. Players just want everything that gets in their way thrown out the door.

[Aurora]

It really surprised me how much more difficult a 9 key felt this week compared to 10-12, you definitely miss the damage boost onto bosses and mana regen for healers. I'd imagine anyone stuck doing 7-9 keys this week because of low r.io, gear or having an out of meta spec is probably having a very bad time.

[ReVnX]

Tyrannical is absurd.

[Yuli]

The biggest problem, as shown by this thread, is players just want everything thrown at them for free. Players just want everything that gets in their way thrown out the door.

This is true, I can't believe the circlejerk going around here.
Tyrannical is in some dungeons even easier than fortified imo, because bosses in SL have very linear and pretty much easier mechanics. Your only task is to do them right. We don't have any boss that is an exceeding damage check like in past expansions. If you're bad, you're bad. Adapt. Don't try to one-cycle Mueh'zala, the Manastorms, Orphryon etc., play more focussed on boss fights in general, don't make mistakes, and there's no problem.
If you're having more issues with the +2 affixes than with the most +4 or +7s like explosive this week, then get yourself a group that plays better, don't try to get yourself carried in group finder, improve yourself, and most importantly:

If you're too bad, don't do it. You don't have the right to demand changes that make the game worse just because you don't manage to beat things. By that logic, blizz should be throwing mythic CN gear at you because you ramble something about bullet sponging and AoE caps and think you're sounding smart with your perception of reality. If Tyrannical bosses are bullet sponges for you, maybe you just don't do enough damage. Sounds smart, right?

[Tehalbino]

Any 'avoidable' damage is already a 1 shot a remotely high key.

[Tziva]

Finally, the problem with Teeming is the AoE caps the game has in Shadowlands, it would slow down dungeons as well, unless groups start to use uncapped AoE to handle it (which they probably would). I don't think it's a huge issue or an important addition at all, just could be interesting to shake things up even at the lowest levels.

Teeming would slow things down for sure, but the idea would be it that it could be balanced to slow things down at roughly the same pace as less trash with more health. That's harder to do when one affix is damage/mechanic related, and the other has a health component unless you adjust quantity too. You can keep the pacing similar, while keeping a varied but simple challenge each week for how that pacing is reached.

The biggest problem, as shown by this thread, is players just want everything thrown at them for free. Players just want everything that gets in their way thrown out the door.

Yes, demanding the game be designed in way that is actually fun and balanced is demanding things for free.

No one said anything about removing challenge or making it a faceroll. Of course it should still be there, it's a keystone. But there shouldn't be such a huge disparity between Fortified and Tyrannical, there shouldn't be 50% of weeks where teams don't bother pushing because it's too fucking slow to bother, and no one thinks doing the exact same thing you did last week for twice as long is fun or interesting. At least harder trash influences route adjustments, coordinating CC, kiting, etc; stuff that can't really be duplicated in the grand majority of boss fights. There's a complexity and depth there that you don't get on Tyrannical. Doing Mistweaver's guessing game six times instead of three (or whatever) is not doing anything but boring people. It's not pushing you to become more skilled, it's not encouraging you to find inventive ways to play. It's just a fucking slog. Games can be a lot of things, but "boring" should never be one of them.

If nearly everyone, at all keystone ranges, agrees -- including players who thrive on pushing themselves and challenges -- chances are the problem is the design itself, not people wanting the easy road.

Honestly, tyrannical being killed would probably ultimately result in less overall dungeon nerfs since those are almost always targetted on bosses that have low success percentages on tyrannical weeks.

[psyquest]

Would anyone agree that swapping the pride affix with tyrannical/fortified would be a nice change to the game?

Currently, it seems to me, that people struggle big time finishing keys in time, especially during tyrannical weeks. I like the idea that people has to learn the mechanics early on, but it seem to me, that isn't the case. It gets frustrating when you're trying to gear an alt solo, and people die left right n' center due to lack of knowledge on mechanics.
As of right now, I think alot would agree with me in terms of saying that a +10 key is way easier than a +9 - this honestly shouldn't be the case.


If the affixes were swapped, "the casual" playerbase would get to see the pride affix while actually being capable of timing keys below 10. I'm not saying it should be free, but honestly right now, it just seems to be uphill for alot of people who normally plays keys below +10.

I don't agree. The main issue is pve loot being scarce, not upgradable and not worth the time.

Blizzard need to give us some currency to target gear and upgrade the gear all the way to 226, like for pvp. 220ilvl and 226 ilvl can have a requirement of clearing full 15, full 18 keys or whatever.
Blizzard need to make raiding worth it. Currently with my alt I do not bother anymore because spending 4 hours to get nothing is crap. I rather pvp and eventually get full 220 easy by getting to 1800 rating.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

People managed to clear +15 in time with average of 200-203 ilvl during the first Tyrannical week. It's about learning the mechanics and nothing else. Many are 210-220 ilvl at this moment so gear isn't a problem.

You don't expect people to kill mythic bosses straight away and requires anything between 50-300 pulls depending on boss so it's same in M+: just practice and git gud

[Blackmist]

Just delete Tyrannical and Fortified.

Ooh, extra health and damage on enemies? Wow, totally unlike the increase they get from M+ levels anyway. It's just fucking lazy design.

[Xath]

People managed to clear +15 in time with average of 200-203 ilvl during the first Tyrannical week. It's about learning the mechanics and nothing else. Many are 210-220 ilvl at this moment so gear isn't a problem.

You don't expect people to kill mythic bosses straight away and requires anything between 50-300 pulls depending on boss so it's same in M+: just practice and git gud

Has nothing to do with not being able to do it, it just isn't fun.