Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Felya]

Why did Democrats who now have the capability to pass something on simple majority, reduce to 400.

They reduced it from 300 to 400? Are you sure about that?

This is the damn point, after months of NOTHING and a worse pandemic and a worse economic outlook. The payouts are reduced. They say this is the beginning, but I will believe that when I see it.

Yes, for people who believe going from 300, to 400, is a reduction... this is indeed a horrifying change of pace... but, not one anyone can help with...

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People shouldn't be working right now... that's kind of the other problem.... you know.. people working just to survive. We need that to not be the case which means there should be more money in peoples hands.

Especially after months and months of nothing, and is this retroactive? The democrats promised retroactivity all the way to September of 2020... they can do that now.

Yeah, I think democrats should just send people money, instead of actual progressive causes. I think this is proof of that...

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50/50...two dems can derail a bill. Very important to win over a few repubs. Especially since dems aren't usually as lockstep as repubs.

None of them will dare vote against it... too big of a spot light... they would be ran out of town...

[Themius]

They reduced it from 300 to 400? Are you sure about that?



Yes, for people who believe going from 300, to 400, is a reduction... this is indeed a horrifying change of pace... but, not one anyone can help with...

Yeah, I think democrats should just send people money, instead of actual progressive causes. I think this is proof of that...


None of them will dare vote against it... too big of a spot light... they would be ran out of town...

The fuck is with your god damn dishonesty ????? Did you fucking forget the damn summer or something when the stimulus was $600??? I mean let me go quote my fucking self.

How did we go from 600 a week to 300 to 400? Things are worse now especially after months and months of nothing and the solution is to give people a 33% cut in the additional pay

I start with "we went from 600 to 300 to 400?"

600 in summer, I even mention in the following sentence, then there was months of nothing.. you know September - January. And now we're at 400 which is a 33% reduction from the $600 and also a reduction from what democrats wanted to do which was the 600 again but they could only compromise on 400

I mean if you're fucking myopic about the bills 300-400 is an increase, but if you were paying attention to the past year IT IS A DECREASE FROM THE ORIGINAL PLAN

And why do you think that means they shouldn't pass progressive causes? Where the fuck did you see me say a $15 is "bad" It's good yes, BUT THE GOD DAMN PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE WORKING ARE DYING and for those who can't work because they don't have jobs they should be restored to the 600 a week as the democrats promised they would do and it should be RETROACTIVE AS THEY ALSO PROMISED.

Are you done being fucking dishonest about what I am saying here? I mean for fuck sakes man... did you forget the summer already? Did you forget the campaigning through the fall and winter already?

You almost sound like a fucking establishment democrat shill.

"Look people got 600 and then nothing for months but they got 300 for a few weeks and now they'll get 400! See that's an increase not a decrease"

Did you noticed by the way that child care is given in the form of a tax credit AT THE END OF THE YEAR so the poorest people who need it now won't get it until 2022... fucking stupid... the recommendation was to just mail out the checks to those families how for like $370 something each month instead of you know... a tax credit that does jackshit until 2022.

[Shadowferal]

...

My sarcasm meter kinda spiked a few times.

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None of them will dare vote against it... too big of a spot light... they would be ran out of town...

Yeah...but Schumer is following Biden's lead. And Biden wants at least a show of an attempt at bipartisanship.

[Themius]

50/50...two dems can derail a bill. Very important to win over a few repubs. Especially since dems aren't usually as lockstep as repubs.

Ah yes... but also no... there are 1-2 democrats that may be a problem, one in particular... but if they do nothing they will lose and they will switch remember how Manchin walked back his opposition to 2k within hours.

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My sarcasm meter kinda spiked a few times.

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Yeah...but Schumer is following Biden's lead. And Biden wants at least a show of an attempt at bipartisanship.

Because Biden is an idiot... and Democrats always have done this. It is almost like.... history isn't a thing that matters to them...

Remember how the Italian government thought they could placate the fascist party by compromising and giving them positions in government... yeah... Mussolini sure learned his place thanks to compromise! In defence of the Italians though they were very scared of the left because you know... reasons.

For a less extreme example..


Remember how Obama was a republican (by own admission his administration was like a moderate 80s republican platform) but no matter how much he compromised nothing happened... because they made the mistake of thinking republicans gave a shit?

[gondrin]

But, people’s pay has a direct impact on everything. If minimum wage is 15$, people who are on minimum wage, just had their salary permanently increased. In either way, it’s people getting more money right now. Would you prefer if this was called a stimulus and government covered the difference?

Sec 230, is completely irrelevant to anything.

That is true. What is also true is the same people who would benefit from that raise also work in industries that have been forced to shut down or run at a reduced capacity because of various governors orders which resulted in layoffs(unemployment should have been extended due to this). If a business can only have 50% of the customers that they were allowed to before, how would raising the minimum wage benefit anyone if those same businesses cannot generate enough revenue due to various governors telling them they cannot do so.

As I said, I'm all for raising of the minimum wage. It is badly needed. The issue is that until the various states allow places to run at full capacity, those same businesses won't be able to support said raise of wage as they cannot get the customer base to even pay for the difference.

I do know that it would affect more then the service industry however the blunt of said damage from COVID came to the service industry which is still being affected by the various states orders. What would be better is if the various states(or federal) picked up the tabs if they want to keep places running at a minimum capacity until things get better.

If they want to raise the minimum wage, then also give forgivable loans to those same businesses that MUST be used to cover whatever differences until things get better if a business is directly affected by government policy. This would not apply to those that can run at a full or near full capacity or rely more of delivery type of business.

[Felya]

The fuck is with your god damn dishonesty ????? Did you fucking forget the damn summer or something when the stimulus was $600??? I mean let me go quote my fucking self.

Simple question... just answer this...

If this bill is rejected, will you celebrate unemployment not decreasing? Will you be celebrating that the bill won’t decrease unemployment from 300 to 400?

Edit: I don’t want a fucking novel... you called me dishonest... answer the above...

[Themius]

Simple question... just answer this...

If this bill is rejected, will you celebrate unemployment not decreasing?

It seems you are entirely unable to see my critiques without then trying to attribute it to some other bullshit.

Answer me this, do you think no one should have any critiques about anything Biden/Harris do and that we should all just be glad we at least got the government back to a semblance of sanity and therefore any critique is "bad and wrong"??? Because it sure fucking seems that way.

Your question has absolutely fucking nothing to do with my critiques of the democrats. Wanna try to stay on the point I'm trying to make and like idk... not straw man bullshit that has nothing to do with what my issues are?

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That is true. What is also true is the same people who would benefit from that raise also work in industries that have been forced to shut down or run at a reduced capacity because of various governors orders which resulted in layoffs(unemployment should have been extended due to this). If a business can only have 50% of the customers that they were allowed to before, how would raising the minimum wage benefit anyone if those same businesses cannot generate enough revenue due to various governors telling them they cannot do so.

As I said, I'm all for raising of the minimum wage. It is badly needed. The issue is that until the various states allow places to run at full capacity, those same businesses won't be able to support said raise of wage as they cannot get the customer base to even pay for the difference.

I do know that it would affect more then the service industry however the blunt of said damage from COVID came to the service industry which is still being affected by the various states orders. What would be better is if the various states(or federal) picked up the tabs if they want to keep places running at a minimum capacity until things get better.

If they want to raise the minimum wage, then also give forgivable loans to those same businesses that MUST be used to cover whatever differences until things get better if a business is directly affected by government policy. This would not apply to those that can run at a full or near full capacity or rely more of delivery type of business.

The answer you're looking for you already gave which was to give loans. The answer isn't to not give a wage increase....

[Felya]

It seems you are entirely unable to see my critiques without then trying to attribute it to some other bullshit.

Oh yeah... I’ll take that as you would celebrate this bill being rejected because going from 300 to 400, is too much of a cut... noice...

The answer you're looking fo you already gave which was to give loans. The answer isn't to not give a wage increase....

What? WTF?

[Bodakane]

Ah yes... but also no... there are 1-2 democrats that may be a problem, one in particular... but if they do nothing they will lose and they will switch remember how Manchin walked back his opposition to 2k within hours.

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Because Biden is an idiot... and Democrats always have done this. It is almost like.... history isn't a thing that matters to them...

Remember how the Italian government thought they could placate the fascist party by compromising and giving them positions in government... yeah... Mussolini sure learned his place thanks to compromise! In defence of the Italians though they were very scared of the left because you know... reasons.

For a less extreme example..


Remember how Obama was a republican (by own admission his administration was like a moderate 80s republican platform) but no matter how much he compromised nothing happened... because they made the mistake of thinking republicans gave a shit?

Exactly.

The Dems keep underestimating the Republican's depravity. The Dems are George McFly and the Repubs are Biff, from the intro timeline. If the Dems just once, knocked the Repubs the fuck out, things would change and the Repubs will turn civil.

[Themius]

Exactly.

The Dems keep underestimating the Republican's depravity. The Dems are George McFly and the Repubs are Biff, from the intro timeline. If the Dems just once, knocked the Repubs the fuck out, things would change and the Repairs will turn civil.

Frankly it seems to be the go to strategy to do nothing... "we would really love to but those darn Republicans! Vote more of us in. We will make sure to do the right thing. Oh but... god damn it, we won't do anything unless we get 10 republicans. Darn it! Bipartisianship should be the way but tsk, sorry guys"

Frankly... it just seems like an excuse for most of them to do the same old capitalist lobby daddy bullshit antics they all do but a few, while getting to pretend they really really really wanna do something but just can't because of those gosh darn repubs.

The error here is expecting Dems to "want" to knock Repubs out... we have a similar problem as Republicans against Trump have. That being one of decorum... so many democrats talk about how they are good friends with the R senators and actually like them and so on. And it isn't all bluster as we sometimes see them together... as they do nothing.

They have the power now, but without pressure from the left in particular not too much will change. Recall Biden's "Nothing will fundamentally change"



When it is clear that things need to fundamentally change. It is the most bizarre thing when you take a step back and look at it all.

[Felya]

That is true. What is also true is the same people who would benefit from that raise also work in industries that have been forced to shut down or run at a reduced capacity because of various governors orders which resulted in layoffs(unemployment should have been extended due to this). If a business can only have 50% of the customers that they were allowed to before, how would raising the minimum wage benefit anyone if those same businesses cannot generate enough revenue due to various governors telling them they cannot do so.

But, that also makes it a perfect time to restructure, because their staff is already cut. There is an assumption that once things go back to what ever normal will look like, there would be both, maintaining the growth in working from home and a return of some of those that were cut previously.

There is also the assumption that increased pay results in more spending, thus resulting in demand for more workers, as well as the justification due to increased spending.

Remember, it’s not just a 15$ minimum wage, it also does away with tipping being able to justify sub minimum wages and sub minimum wage jobs for disabled (which I don’t know what that even is... wtf? You can pay disabled less?). I saw this on Vaush, he had the same reaction...

The big hit will be small towns that can’t pay 15$ an hour... and there needs to be government subsidies, just like they did with farms, until inflation does the dirty work. Loans are not the answer... we can’t put people into perpetual debt, even if it’s interest free.

As I said, I'm all for raising of the minimum wage. It is badly needed. The issue is that until the various states allow places to run at full capacity, those same businesses won't be able to support said raise of wage as they cannot get the customer base to even pay for the difference.

I actually did this at work... because our clientele is smaller until people can be in groups again, we need to focus on strengthening the back bone of our company. This is the perfect time to adjust, because when you start bringing people back, you will be doing it knowing the cost. Instead of hiring, then firing because of the cost. This is an opportunity for business to look inward, since not many are coming from outside.

I do know that it would affect more then the service industry however the blunt of said damage from COVID came to the service industry which is still being affected by the various states orders. What would be better is if the various states(or federal) picked up the tabs if they want to keep places running at a minimum capacity until things get better.

I think this might be where out disagreement is, which is totally understandable... neither of us can see the future...

I think covid makes changes like this, easier for companies that already have minimal staff and clientele to adjust. While you believe that minimum wage will compound the existing problem that causes there to be minimal staff. I think I see you perspective, but simply disagree on what I think will happen.

If they want to raise the minimum wage, then also give forgivable loans to those same businesses that MUST be used to cover whatever differences until things get better if a business is directly affected by government policy. This would not apply to those that can run at a full or near full capacity or rely more of delivery type of business.

They need to give money to states, to choose how to subsidize small business that can’t afford it. It cannot be lead by the federal government and cannot be in the form of loans. It has to be precise and not have need to pay back as a detractor.

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The Dems keep underestimating the Republican's depravity. The Dems are George McFly and the Repubs are Biff, from the intro timeline. If the Dems just once, knocked the Repubs the fuck out, things would change and the Repairs will turn civil.

You shouldn’t lie when you do it though... the argument needs to be that the payments are not enough, not that they got decreased. Muddying the waters is just Trumpism from the left...

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When it is clear that things need to fundamentally change. It is the most bizarre thing when you take a step back and look at it all.

This is in response to people who literally claim his winning is the end of western civilization. Just 3 months ago, a bill that includes a minimum wage increase to 15$, would have been considered a fundamental change.

Now... I am all for normalizing progressive causes, where we just treat them as expected course of action... but, we are nowhere near there. AnarchoBidenism might be dead, but it shouldn’t welcome Trumpism to the left.

[cordrann]

How did we go from 600 a week to 300 to 400? Things are worse now especially after months and months of nothing and the solution is to give people a 33% cut in the additional pay

Because people sitting at home shouldn't have been getting $600 a week in addition to regular unemployment in the first place when essential(expendable) employees are still risking their health for less. A full time job at the federal minimum wage is $290 a week, before withholdings. My wife had to leave her job when the pandemic started due to child care concerns. We were better off financially with her unemployment than her working. Until that is fixed, it seems like a really bad idea to incentivize people to try to leave their job in a way that will get them unemployment.

The lowest state unemployment benefit is $235 a week in Mississippi. Add the 600 dollars to that and its the equivalent of a 21 dollar an hour job... in Mississippi. That's just stupid.

[Bodakane]

Frankly it seems to be the go to strategy to do nothing... "we would really love to but those darn Republicans! Vote more of us in. We will make sure to do the right thing. Oh but... god damn it, we won't do anything unless we get 10 republicans. Darn it! Bipartisianship should be the way but tsk, sorry guys"

Frankly... it just seems like an excuse for most of them to do the same old capitalist lobby daddy bullshit antics they all do but a few, while getting to pretend they really really really wanna do something but just can't because of those gosh darn repubs.

The error here is expecting Dems to "want" to knock Repubs out... we have a similar problem as Republicans against Trump have. That being one of decorum... so many democrats talk about how they are good friends with the R senators and actually like them and so on. And it isn't all bluster as we sometimes see them together... as they do nothing.

They have the power now, but without pressure from the left in particular not too much will change. Recall Biden's "Nothing will fundamentally change"



When it is clear that things need to fundamentally change. It is the most bizarre thing when you take a step back and look at it all.

They believe in the good of their fellow man. They don't believe all 70+ million people that voted for Trump are terrible people. They think they are just misguided and need a little,"aw shucks Uncle Joe", to see the light and change their ways. So when they sit down to the table with Repubs, they think these people will be blown away by their attempts at compromise. Instead, the repubs see blood and the water and take everything they can, because they are compassionless.

Like Repubs, they are too stubborn to see the light and change their ways. And also like Repubs, that is why they also fear progressives like Bernie, Warren and AOC.

So many people jumped my shit because I didn't want Biden to get the nom. All the people that came for me, also said they too preferred a different candidate, but (just made the assumption that) Joe had the best chance to win.

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You shouldn’t lie when you do it though... the argument needs to be that the payments are not enough, not that they got decreased. Muddying the waters is just Trumpism from the left....

I don't think that poster lied so much as you're playing a little lawyer ball with semantics.

The point they were making is that it is fucked up the promised amount keeps changing and it is still less than originally promised/discussed. Especially when those original numbers were part of the sales pitch.

[Shadowferal]

Until that is fixed, it seems like a really bad idea to incentivize people to try to leave their job in a way that will get them unemployment.

If you knew what you're talking about then you'd know you can't leave your job to collect unemployment and that little addition without sufficient reason. To do otherwise would be fraud.

[Felya]

Because people sitting at home shouldn't have been getting $600 a week in addition to regular unemployment in the first place when essential(expendable) employees are still risking their health for less. A full time job at the federal minimum wage is $290 a week, before withholdings. My wife had to leave her job when the pandemic started due to child care concerns. We were better off financially with her unemployment than her working. Until that is fixed, it seems like a really bad idea to incentivize people to try to leave their job in a way that will get them unemployment.

See... this is why his argument is such shit... it lets people do this...

My dude... How long did your wife receive that 600$? Have you considered that you should have considered that 600$ as not just a bonus for those few weeks, but can be applied to the wage loss in the following 6 months, where you got 0 bonus? Has that been something you considered?

Have you considered that making more than you did, is the point of the stimulus. That the point isn’t to just match your previous salary. That the point is to give you more, so you can afford the changed landscape of your life. Like, your kids being at home... having to buy masks and shit to prevent covid... a lot of toilet paper I guess...

What if... The bonus to unemployment, was intended to surpass actual salary?

Edit: ... when I was on unemployment due to furlough, even with 600 bonus, I was making less... and am not bitching about it... making people making more complain, kinda... self defeating?

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If you knew what you're talking about then you'd know you can't leave your job to collect unemployment and that little addition without sufficient reason. To do otherwise would be fraud.

Fuck... I missed that... lol

[Themius]

Because people sitting at home shouldn't have been getting $600 a week in addition to regular unemployment in the first place when essential(expendable) employees are still risking their health for less. A full time job at the federal minimum wage is $290 a week, before withholdings. My wife had to leave her job when the pandemic started due to child care concerns. We were better off financially with her unemployment than her working. Until that is fixed, it seems like a really bad idea to incentivize people to try to leave their job in a way that will get them unemployment.

The lowest state unemployment benefit is $235 a week in Mississippi. Add the 600 dollars to that and its the equivalent of a 21 dollar an hour job... in Mississippi. That's just stupid.

That is a testament to a too low minimum wage.... and frankly you entire argument sounds ridiculous as fuck.

"The slightly more liveable wage we get from the government has made it easier for us to survive. What we must do is not incentivise that but instead incentivise people going back to work for their corporate overlords who underpay them to the point where they can barely survive."

What the fuck are you on about mate??

[jonnysensible]

Because people sitting at home shouldn't have been getting $600 a week in addition to regular unemployment in the first place when essential(expendable) employees are still risking their health for less. A full time job at the federal minimum wage is $290 a week, before withholdings. My wife had to leave her job when the pandemic started due to child care concerns. We were better off financially with her unemployment than her working. Until that is fixed, it seems like a really bad idea to incentivize people to try to leave their job in a way that will get them unemployment.

The lowest state unemployment benefit is $235 a week in Mississippi. Add the 600 dollars to that and its the equivalent of a 21 dollar an hour job... in Mississippi. That's just stupid.

you have it backwards, employers should stop paying poverty wages.

[gondrin]

But, that also makes it a perfect time to restructure, because their staff is already cut. There is an assumption that once things go back to what ever normal will look like, there would be both, maintaining the growth in working from home and a return of some of those that were cut previously.

There is also the assumption that increased pay results in more spending, thus resulting in demand for more workers, as well as the justification due to increased spending.

Remember, it’s not just a 15$ minimum wage, it also does away with tipping being able to justify sub minimum wages and sub minimum wage jobs for disabled (which I don’t know what that even is... wtf? You can pay disabled less?). I saw this on Vaush, he had the same reaction...

The big hit will be small towns that can’t pay 15$ an hour... and there needs to be government subsidies, just like they did with farms, until inflation does the dirty work. Loans are not the answer... we can’t put people into perpetual debt, even if it’s interest free.



I actually did this at work... because our clientele is smaller until people can be in groups again, we need to focus on strengthening the back bone of our company. This is the perfect time to adjust, because when you start bringing people back, you will be doing it knowing the cost. Instead of hiring, then firing because of the cost. This is an opportunity for business to look inward, since not many are coming from outside.



I think this might be where out disagreement is, which is totally understandable... neither of us can see the future...

I think covid makes changes like this, easier for companies that already have minimal staff and clientele to adjust. While you believe that minimum wage will compound the existing problem that causes there to be minimal staff. I think I see you perspective, but simply disagree on what I think will happen.



They need to give money to states, to choose how to subsidize small business that can’t afford it. It cannot be lead by the federal government and cannot be in the form of loans. It has to be precise and not have need to pay back as a detractor.

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You shouldn’t lie when you do it though... the argument needs to be that the payments are not enough, not that they got decreased. Muddying the waters is just Trumpism from the left...

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This is in response to people who literally claim his winning is the end of western civilization. Just 3 months ago, a bill that includes a minimum wage increase to 15$, would have been considered a fundamental change.

Now... I am all for normalizing progressive causes, where we just treat them as expected course of action... but, we are nowhere near there. AnarchoBidenism might be dead, but it shouldn’t welcome Trumpism to the left.

You are right as COVID really brought out the need for a vast majority of structural changes that have been needed to happen for a long time. I always state that everyone is underpaid, especially blue collar workers and service industry workers for the type of work they do. I see it all the time from people I know and their reactions to when minimum wage is talked about going up. And I always point out that type of attitude of where instead of saying "Well, I should make more too" and fight for it to uplift everyone, they would rather see people held down to make themselves feel better. It is simple jealousy.

You are also right in that when a business is forced to run at a lower capacity, that is the best time to make major changes that affect the least amount of people. That is why I stated that to give forgivable loans that don't have to be paid back if they are used for said things that the loans were meant for in the first place. It is a complex issue and one that isn't solvable with only one solution.

Forest for the trees and all that.

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Because people sitting at home shouldn't have been getting $600 a week in addition to regular unemployment in the first place when essential(expendable) employees are still risking their health for less. A full time job at the federal minimum wage is $290 a week, before withholdings. My wife had to leave her job when the pandemic started due to child care concerns. We were better off financially with her unemployment than her working. Until that is fixed, it seems like a really bad idea to incentivize people to try to leave their job in a way that will get them unemployment.

The lowest state unemployment benefit is $235 a week in Mississippi. Add the 600 dollars to that and its the equivalent of a 21 dollar an hour job... in Mississippi. That's just stupid.

Ok, explain to me how anyone sitting at home making $600/week is affecting you personally in any way? Are you that jealous of what someone else is getting that you are now embarrassed at what you are getting that instead of fighting for more, you want to take away from someone else?

Sorry for the derail.

[cordrann]

That is a testament to a too low minimum wage.... and frankly you entire argument sounds ridiculous as fuck.

"The slightly more liveable wage we get from the government has made it easier for us to survive. What we must do is not incentivise that but instead incentivise people going back to work for their corporate overlords who underpay them to the point where they can barely survive."

What the fuck are you on about mate??

My entire point is that minimum wage and bonuses for essential workers need to come before bonus unemployment. The argument is quite simply that what society needs most should be most incentivized. Essential workers and really anyone working should make more than people sitting at home. Society needs them more. 600 dollars extra still seems like entirely too much for most states. People are fighting for a 15 dollar an hour minimum wage for doing actual work, maybe unemployment shouldn't pay 25% more than that.

And you guys are deluding yourself if you think people can't/don't game unemployment, especially right now. That shouldn't be more lucrative than actually working.

[Felya]

My entire point is that minimum wage and bonuses for essential workers need to come before bonus unemployment.

This isn’t a bonus in the since of a gift... This is a bonus so people don’t go broke... This isn’t a reword for a job well done...

Edit: Minimum wage increase will impact essential workers, like delivery and packing personnel. It will impact the majority of front line workers. You know... the McDonnalds cashier risking getting covid for minimum wage, so we can get fast food.