Is Classic too easy?

[Heathy]

how difficult it is, is entirely subjective, what you can do to gauge some sort of metric is look at the difference between the amount of guilds that cleared aq40 and the current state of progress in naxx.

on my server https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/ser...ss&partition=3

84 guilds (some pugs) have logged clears of aq40

meanwhile 6 weeks later only 17 guilds have cleared naxx and 14 of them are at 4h.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/ser...ss&partition=5

it took my guild 4 weeks to do saph and kel, mainly because it was taking both raids (we do 2x 40s a week sunday and tuesday the day before eu reset) to reach saph and we would have no buffs and very few attempts before the weeks raiding was done (reset). no one really had much FR gear that first week I think, you wouldn't have been able to get that many frozen runes either. (not while focusing on progress)

last week we cleared it in 4hrs with DMF and this week (yesterday) it was done 30 minutes quicker and in a single raid without dmf. as you get more gear, as ppl get used to the fights it gets easier again. the first week was the hardest week. because you only had bwl/aq40 gear. each week your raid has more and more t3 so now (if you have already cleared it) its just being farmed for gear like any other raid. saphiron is a bit of a shitter because you'll likely have to bring more healers if you don't have WBs. some guilds may not have ppl who can switch to geared healer alts and other guilds do.

all in all naxx is a noticeable step up from aq40, gear and buffs make a huge difference, with them the raid is extremely powerful without them its a lot more balanced where you have less room for failure. when your raid is buffed you want to try to get as far as you possibly can with those buffs while losing basically no-one, doing the content isn't so bad but doing it with perfect execution isn't exactly super easy. random ppl will pull aggro and die or die from a lack of heals etc. having it go perfect is something you can only hope for but not guarantee. when a raid is fully buffed, there is a fair amount at stake and an obligation to do your best and carry those buffs as far as you can and get the most out of them.

sure with infinite time anyone can wipe fest through naxx, but not many ppl are managing to pull off good execution.

one example is that with full world buffs ill tank naxx trash with a 2h in berzerker stance and not give a fuck, without world buffs I know ill run the risk of being gibbed one good crit will melt me but with the buffs you have the hp to laugh it off. and your healers ofc have the mana to piss away spam healing through the trash the whole thing is just much faster if you can maintain a buffed raid compared to one that is running no buffs because everyone died or it took too long so they ran out.

killing the bosses and doing the raid isn't impossible, no raid is, doing 10 or so bosses without many ppl dying (preferably no one) is beyond a single persons control but it is the thing you want to ultimately achieve. once its cleared its simply about perfection and doing it well. there is a huge difference between clearing naxx in 1 raid or 4hrs and clearing it in 8hrs or 12hrs. now that we can clear naxx in 1 raid we can go back and chill in aq40/bwl on tuesdays. clearing all relevant content in 2 days. and not wipe festing all week. having it cost a fortune in time and consumes. if we keep this up everyone will have decent gear to take into BC. (the whole point of doing it) maybe we'll even manage a second atiesh.

a lot of the one line posts saying that its easy are probably coming from ppl who aren't doing the instance, its easy if you have a raid spot and are clearing it each week, its not easy if you aren't in a guild raiding it. unlike retail there is no highly puggable version of naxx that you can faceroll with randoms picked out of a hat. you've either been gearing up for naxx since phase 1 or you haven't.

lets also remember that classic isn't as linear or formulaic as the modern game, what stands out to me a lot at this stage is how t2.5 for warriors is probably better for tanking than t3 is on most bosses its the better threat generating set. this is the same throughout the game where key BiS gear doesn't all come from naxx. the best tanking neck in the game drops from c'thun, shaman t1 is better than t2 etc etc etc, this is a consistent thing in classic for various classes and specs. where some of your BiS gear doesn't drop in naxx. the game just isn't as clear cut as it is today. I only use my t3 for patchwerk and 4h where threat isn't a problem and only mitigation matters. classic is weird in this way where things are more ambiguous.

as a tank (but not the MT) each naxx raid costs me 1 titans(i can get away with just 1 for patchwerk MT needs 2), 5x mongoose/giants/defence elixirs (1 every hr), 4 faps (patchwerk trash), 2-3 frost resistance potions(saph/kel), 2-3 shadow protection potions(loatheb/saph), and 2 stoneshield potions(patchwerk). this assumes no wipes. one raid can be done without too many consumables but this is the bare minimum for me. each raid costs something like 250-300g the flask makes up the bulk of this but its still 100g or so in other shit. while you only make maybe 60g back from the boss kills. if your guild isn't as consistent in making progress or you do just wipe over and over it ends up costing a lot, to the point that a lot of ppl probably won't be able to simply keep wiping there.

[Utrrabbit]

[QUOTE=Fathr;52953568]

Ive cleared it in classic already, I also got to kel in vanilla main tanking as a prot paladin. It was not hard. Time consumming does not equate diffuculty. Only reason we never down it in vanilla was we only went in once the week before TBC came out.

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I look forward to your youtube video then of you MT'ing Kel as a prot paladin in classic (and NO wotlk aint classic, where a prot paladin could feasibly do it with his eyes closed. Naxx in Wotlk was a total joke, and my guild cleared it first week it came out as did a lot of others).

I was talking about vanilla not wotlk. You had prot paladins tanking in vanilla, just cause it was not as previlant than now does not mean it did not happen. I had already known about the kings threat trick back than.

[Dalinos]

[QUOTE=Utrrabbit;52955104]

I was talking about vanilla not wotlk. You had prot paladins tanking in vanilla, just cause it was not as previlant than now does not mean it did not happen. I had already known about the kings threat trick back than.

Biggest lie of the century. Maybe you tanked as a prot pala on the last week of Classic, when TBC talents were introduced, but you did not tank as a paladin in Vanilla. You couldn't even reach the defense cap to become uncrittable, and that was the meta back then. Full turtle-mode tanks with maxed out Defense that could take a beating and survive for 5-6 seconds without getting healed. I, having been 12/15 in OG vanilla as a Resto druid, call bullshit on your claim.

[scelero]

This is what happens when people water down the meaning of the words they speak. To think, you all have different ideas on what is easy is, so this should be a discussion on the meaning of 'easy'.

Here's a simple concept that have same idea but mean two completely different things. Stopped and Parked. One is illegal to do on a highway, while the other is perfectly ok. Know the difference people because you will be tricked into thinking you parked when really you only stopped.

Stop putting different meaning on words, there are PLENTY OF OTHER words to be used that are better suited for what you're trying to convey.

Or, you can use words like this that only get people arguing over how they read the question.

[Lolites]

it was sold in 2004 as casual and easy MMORPG
and after 15years of knowledge and experience people think it became hard?!

[arkanon]

This is what happens when people water down the meaning of the words they speak. To think, you all have different ideas on what is easy is, so this should be a discussion on the meaning of 'easy'.

Here's a simple concept that have same idea but mean two completely different things. Stopped and Parked. One is illegal to do on a highway, while the other is perfectly ok. Know the difference people because you will be tricked into thinking you parked when really you only stopped.

Stop putting different meaning on words, there are PLENTY OF OTHER words to be used that are better suited for what you're trying to convey.

Or, you can use words like this that only get people arguing over how they read the question.

What on earth are you talking about? Your example is absolutely terrible, has no bearing at all on the conversation at hand, and honestly just doesnt make any sense at all.

[Synical123]

What on earth are you talking about? Your example is absolutely terrible, has no bearing at all on the conversation at hand, and honestly just doesnt make any sense at all.

It's actually not and makes complete sense. Your critical thinking skills seem to not have improved since the last time I responded to one of your comments.

What he is saying (which I can't believe I have to explain this) is that the topic should use a different phrase to have a more meaningful discussion because 'easy' means a million different things to a million different people. He is saying maybe we should say something like "Are the mechanics in vanilla raiding to simple" or maybe "Is the content in vanilla cleared too quickly?".

Because when you ask "Is it too easy?" thats really a silly question. Because if someone has absolutely no life and has all the time in the world for example, they may see classic as super duper simple. But if there is a person that maybe really good at mechanics of the game but lets say can only play 30 mins a day, yeah classic may not be that 'easy' for them.

I honestly can't understand how you wouldn't get this to be honest, unless something else is going on with you.

[arkanon]

It's actually not and makes complete sense. Your critical thinking skills seem to not have improved since the last time I responded to one of your comments.

What he is saying (which I can't believe I have to explain this) is that the topic should use a different phrase to have a more meaningful discussion because 'easy' means a million different things to a million different people. He is saying maybe we should say something like "Are the mechanics in vanilla raiding to simple" or maybe "Is the content in vanilla cleared too quickly?".

Because when you ask "Is it too easy?" thats really a silly question. Because if someone has absolutely no life and has all the time in the world for example, they may see classic as super duper simple. But if there is a person that maybe really good at mechanics of the game but lets say can only play 30 mins a day, yeah classic may not be that 'easy' for them.

I honestly can't understand how you wouldn't get this to be honest, unless something else is going on with you.

You seem really confused about how discussions work. You claim the question should be rephrased into an absolute - a closed-ended question - a yes/no question. That kills any discussion, and simply promotes an echo chamber of everyone saying exactly the same answer, since there can be only one correct answer. The way this question is phrased is correct if a discussion is what you want, and ironically, for the exact reasons you outlined.

You seem to be confusing an open-ended question, like the one this thread poses, and a closed-ended question. Im very glad you are being so honest though, good for you!

[Grimreaper]

But it's true though. It's actually false to say "Classic is easy". You can say it's simple if anything, easy is just an opinion.

[deenman]

Back when WoW was released, back in the age of FF11 and Everquest, it was considered "The casual MMO".

but for very different reasons,it was because of a lack of penalties for death and how it was holding your hand way more,by those standards the current game is even more casual (if we dont take mecanical complexities in to consideration)

the meaning behind casual for mmo's has changed over the years

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AHAHAHA.
Normal SL is miles more complicated than anything in Classic.
Classic just has an even higher concentration of "not-so-skilled-players" than retail has.

Classic is perfectly fine, but nothing in there is a challenge for normally competent players of today.

normal sl was insane compared to everything in the past,i dont remember the last time a raid was this hard on normal and hc,first time not clearing hc day 1 or 2

[arkanon]

But it's true though. It's actually false to say "Classic is easy". You can say it's simple if anything, easy is just an opinion.

i dont want to be "that guy" but......you might want to check out the definitions of those words.

simple means something can be easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.

easy means something can be achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties.

Although they do have slightly different definitions, in this context they are entirely interchangeable.

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but for very different reasons,it was because of a lack of penalties for death and how it was holding your hand way more,by those standards the current game is even more casual (if we dont take mecanical complexities in to consideration)

the meaning behind casual for mmo's has changed over the years

2

I agree with this - I think it has become far more contextual. If you are only comparing leveling a fresh character from lvl 1 to max level, on a fresh account, retail is clearly the more casual experience. However, the water becomes slightly muddy when you start comparing entry level content, and gets even muddier when you start introducing higher difficulties and expectations.

[Synical123]

i dont want to be "that guy" but......you might want to check out the definitions of those words.

simple means something can be easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.

easy means something can be achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties.

Although they do have slightly different definitions, in this context they are entirely interchangeable.

How are you this bad at understanding literally anything lol. They are not interchangeable and what he said is 100% true and you linking the definitions proves this.

simple means something can be easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.

This works well with vanilla. Simple. Easily understood or done.

There is nothing too difficult to understand with vanilla. Specs/mechanics/rotations in this game presents no real questions. Simple works perfectly.

easy means something can be achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties.

This is definition presents waaay more room for subjectivity. Even if you understand vanilla completely, and get that you just have to press one button, it could still be presented as ‘not’ easy from a persons perspective who may not have all the time in the world to actually complete these tasks.

Your lack of understanding is truly baffling.

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You seem really confused about how discussions work. You claim the question should be rephrased into an absolute - a closed-ended question - a yes/no question. That kills any discussion, and simply promotes an echo chamber of everyone saying exactly the same answer, since there can be only one correct answer. The way this question is phrased is correct if a discussion is what you want, and ironically, for the exact reasons you outlined.

You seem to be confusing an open-ended question, like the one this thread poses, and a closed-ended question. Im very glad you are being so honest though, good for you!

Wow I missed this post somehow. Once again showing your lack of understanding. I didn’t say the question shouldn’t be open ended I said it should be more PRECISE about what it’s trying to ask.

Hence the difference

“is classic too easy?”

“Is classic raid mechanics too simple?”

“Is the time commitment for classic too much?”

These are completely separate questions. It is possible to think classics raid mechanics are too simple, but also think the time requirements for them being too high makes the game not too easy.

I doubt you’ll even understand that tho given your history in this thread.

[arkanon]

Your lack of understanding is truly baffling.

"Presenting no difficulty"
"presenting few difficulties"

"not interchangeable" - "completely different" hahaha, amazing stuff - keep it up.

I love how some people are so obsessed with classic they keep flapping on about the "time commitment" without realising its substantially LOWER than retail.......

So you only want people to ask Yes / No questions on a discussion forum - what an amazing and dynamic forum that would be!

You are honestly just rambling at this point - just incoherent nonsense - so busy trying to win some internet points you are not thinking things through at all.

[Synical123]

"Presenting no difficulty"
"presenting few difficulties"

"not interchangeable" - "completely different" hahaha, amazing stuff - keep it up.

I honestly can't tell, are you seriously trolling or did you really not get the difference between what I said?

[arkanon]

I honestly can't tell, are you seriously trolling or did you really not get the difference between what I said?

You are looking for a difference that isnt there, both share meaning in this context and are entirely interchangeable.

Slow down, stop trying so desperately to be "right", and look back at what you said. You literally said:

classic can be "easily done", and then immediately went on to say that it is not EASY for someone who doesn't have enough time. Which is it? Scroll up and have a ready. I can link the contradiction for you if you are unable to find it.

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It is possible to think classics raid mechanics are too simple, but also think the time requirements for them being too high makes the game not too easy.

No, its not, since part of the definition of "simple" is literally "can be done easily" - if someone doesn't have the time to commit, then by the very definition of the word, it is not simple. You are really stuck on this "time investment" thing, as many casual classic fans are, because it is the only thing they can hold on to when comparing classic to other games or other iterations of this game that actually pose some challenge.

[Zig Zug]

Lol, 75 pages and no answer.

[huth]

You are looking for a difference that isnt there, both share meaning in this context and are entirely interchangeable.

Except they aren't. Simple is about complexity. Easy is about difficulty. Complexity is not difficulty, and the two don't follow from one another.

Classic is simple because it has few mechanics. It is easy because it is tuned to a fairly low level.

[Tumile]

I’m not arguing Classic is the hardest thing ever, but would all the things you mentioned be a metric of difficulty? I know it seems silly, but part of the difficulty in classic is literally just getting 40 people to show up to raid, and be prepared for that point in terms of gear/consume/etc. If a lot of guilds make it to nax and end up disbanding because of XYZ reason and you aren’t able to complete it, wouldn’t that make it pretty difficult to clear the raid then to even make it to that point and find 39 other players to stick with it?

I know this might sound silly, but it is a part of the equation that make things difficult in a game like wow. Think of it like this, think of the hardest possible fight you can think of in retail. Think of everything you have to do personally whatever your role is. Now imagine this fight is a single player fight where you have to just do your part of the fight. It would be pretty easy to do wouldn’t it? It would be seen as a complete joke. Part of difficulty in wow for sure is the entire aspect of the game. Hitting end level, gettin your professions up, getting the gear you need to walk to that point, getting consumables and farming gold to make it that far.

Sure you can say “but those things aren’t hard it’s jsut time consuming”. Ok well if retail raiding was just you logging into a character with BiS max item level and the fights were all single player it would be a complete joke as well. Difficulty is the entire spectrum of the game not just the mechanics of a fight.

been trying to explain this to my friends, personally I find mythic raiding even at the top 20 level a joke, compared to just getting in to masters in League, or competing in CSGO or <insert other competitive game that I havent personally tried here> the only difficult part has been "figuring out" the fights to begin with, making strats etc, but when i was just the average zug zugger it was literally just being told what my Job was, and executing a quite honestly, incredibly simple and easy task.

I would much rather play an even easier game where I am no longer "forced" to ditch friends in order to fit into a raid team, at a somewhat decent level (not a big fan of casual gaming, dont have the patience for people who don't care about the rest of the raid group dragging everyone down) or because of their class.

In classic we would all be able to play together, and you can still min max ur gameplay in both PvE and PvP without much of a difference in "Difficulty" from retail, we can fuck around at DMF and 4v7billion, do anywhere from 2-15 man premades, u can min max ur gold farming runs which honestly is just as difficult as mythic raiding (example, consistently running 5-10 minute Dire maul solo runs as a warlock) it's all about ur frame of mind, and how much u want to min max or challenge urself, Classic is basically a sandbox, so the difficulty argument never made much sense to me. but sadly I was never able to convince them, wether its a turd, or a polished turd, it is still a turd. Wether its easy, or slightly less easy, it is still easy, if you arent engaged in raid and strat management the difference in difficulty honestly shouldn't matter for any of the higher end mythic raiders.

[arkanon]

Except they aren't. Simple is about complexity. Easy is about difficulty. Complexity is not difficulty, and the two don't follow from one another.

Classic is simple because it has few mechanics. It is easy because it is tuned to a fairly low level.

This is completely false - you need to open up a dictionary or google the two words. I'm sorry, but you are flat-out wrong.

[Synical123]

This is completely false - you need to open up a dictionary or google the two words. I'm sorry, but you are flat-out wrong.

You literally just gave us the definitions which proved what this guy said is correct. How are you not trolling right? Are you seriously this confused?

I mean I'll link them again in case you need help

dif·fi·cult
/ˈdifəkəlt/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
"she had a difficult decision to make"

com·plex·i·ty
/kəmˈpleksədē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the state or quality of being intricate or complicated.
"an issue of great complexity"

I'll make this super simple for you. A rubix cube. A rubix cube is super simple. A lot of people say "There is beauty in it's simplicity". It's literally just a cube with 9 colored squares on each side.

But even though it's simple in its design, it can still be difficult to do.