I think the story needs a Red Wedding style surprise

[ClassicPeon]

dunno man, always though Danouser and his crew are devs, developers of the story, but if you have another name you can say.

And after BFA and the blatantly copy paste of mop plot i stick with what i said

A developer is a programmer though? Not a story writer

I've heard people call themselves developers if they work closely with programmers aswell(even though its technically not correct) but i've never heard anyone call story writers a developer

[czarek]

Ye this theory has been around for some time now, but seems more like you just repeated what every one already said, but then it short.

Dont get what you mean with the elune part. You thought lets throw that in there as well since many people talk about elune? Lol

No one excatly know what elune is. She could be Azeorth it self. She is using light not only moonlight but light as a whole. Anduin said the light is with him even here in the Maw. Jailer know he need to capture Anduin and put him into his army to take full control to destroy/rule Azeroth.

[haiyken]

Of course not every character needs to be Arthas-like to be cool. We see quite nice characters of Thrall (pre-Cata), Grom, Tyrande and Malfurion, Jaina (pre-BfA) - they all differ from Arthas path and all are more or less cool. It is because they have some development of their characters, motives etc. Anduin just has no development at all - he is the constant of light, joy, happiness, rightfulness, perfect golden boy-king who wields infinite eternal wisdom. This is just boring and stale. It is good for an ending of some story, where 'happily ever after' happens and story ends (just like Lord of the Rings did). But in ever-changing game story having such stale and bland character is wasteful imo. And I see here in this thread plenty of same thoughts. So it is not just my personal bias towards Alliance or Anduin or w/e.

For the past few expansions, we've seen quite a lot coming from Anduin. Talking about "constant of light, joy, happiness" feels a bit disingenuous after literally having a big part of his arc being about the death of his father, the burden that comes with Varian's legacy, the hardships of leading his people to their death into a war he never wanted and overall the feeling of not being fit to be the king his people and fellow leaders expect him to be. The fact that, despite this constant struggle and doubts, he still manage to draw from his faith in the Light to remain a beacon for others, to heal and lead is people is quite remarkable.

People act like Anduin is a one-dimensional character while it's far from the truth. I think his character is much more subtle than people make it to be, but at the same time is all laid out for everyone to see, mainly in cinematics and in books, so I don't really get it. I do feel players complaining about what you're complaining about don't take the time to understand the character as a whole and project a lot onto him. It's a shame, but it's what it is.

Saying he's "stale and bland" is pointless really, because it's a point of view, a biased one. The only thing people in this thread want him to be is corrupted, an Arthas-like or a Shadowform Anduin. It may be more edgy and flashy, but it's as bland as a righteous character if you start going there. People clearly want a more gritty and dark story from Warcraft, and I get it with GoT and the Witcher shaping or current view of mainstream heroic-fantasy, but I do think there is still a place for lawful good characters like Anduin, that don't need to be broken down, corrupted by outside forces, turn to the dark side, etc. Being good is not bland or stale, helping others, caring for others, feeling out of place or unfit, having doubts are not bad traits for a character to have. It doesn't make a character boring, it's just that you're not interested in what he has to offer.

I don't personally think Anduin is boring, especially because there are so many other characters in this franchise that can evolve the way people want Anduin to evole. It's even what's they're doing right now with Tyrande, and hinting at with Turalyon being perhaps a much too hardcore zealot of the Light going forward.

[ClassicPeon]

That's also what I'm talking about. He lives in a sterile world, where others do all the dirty stuff for him. Anduin makes only good and kind deeds. Writers intentionally keep him as wonderboi who is always right. He doesn't have any bad traits, such as Genn or Tyrande. Hell, even Velen had some internal conflict in Legion, but not Anduin, never!

Well remember that he used to be a kid and a plotdevice(even in pandaria, he was just a secondary character and a plot device).

In BFA blizzard had to convince people he was no longer a little kid and they had to establish his character traits.

SL is the first expansion where i feel like they are going to play around with him a bit and challenge his ideals.

Thats the fun part about having an overall good guy character that people sometimes forget(just like arthas used to be right)

[Justintime328]

A little off topic but does any one else think that when this is all over it's gonna be like years in the future? Idk why but I get that kind of feeling from the plot so far. Has anyone said anything of how time works in the Shadowlands?

[Muxtar]

For the past few expansions, we've seen quite a lot coming from Anduin. Talking about "constant of light, joy, happiness" feels a bit disingenuous after literally having a big part of his arc being about the death of his father, the burden that comes with Varian's legacy, the hardships of leading his people to their death into a war he never wanted and overall the feeling of not being fit to be the king his people and fellow leaders expect him to be. The fact that, despite this constant struggle and doubts, he still manage to draw from his faith in the Light to remain a beacon for others, to heal and lead is people is quite remarkable.

People act like Anduin is a one-dimensional character while it's far from the truth. I think his character is much more subtle than people make it to be, but at the same time is all laid out for everyone to see, mainly in cinematics and in books, so I don't really get it. I do feel players complaining about what you're complaining about don't take the time to understand the character as a whole and project a lot onto him. It's a shame, but it's what it is.

Saying he's "stale and bland" is pointless really, because it's a point of view, a biased one. The only thing people in this thread want him to be is corrupted, an Arthas-like or a Shadowform Anduin. It may be more edgy and flashy, but it's as bland as a righteous character if you start going there. People clearly want a more gritty and dark story from Warcraft, and I get it with GoT and the Witcher shaping or current view of mainstream heroic-fantasy, but I do think there is still a place for lawful good characters like Anduin, that don't need to be broken down, corrupted by outside forces, turn to the dark side, etc. Being good is not bland or stale, helping others, caring for others, feeling out of place or unfit, having doubts are not bad traits for a character to have. It doesn't make a character boring, it's just that you're not interested in what he has to offer.

I don't personally think Anduin is boring, especially because there are so many other characters in this franchise that can evolve the way people want Anduin to evole. It's even what's they're doing right now with Tyrande, and hinting at with Turalyon being perhaps a much too hardcore zealot of the Light going forward.

I see your point, but when I want to read fairy-tale, I get book and read fairy-tale, where good side is always good and kind, and bad side is always bad and evil. Warcraft from the start set another theme for its lore - where baddies are not always bad (Orgrim Doomhammer), and goodies are not always good (Arthas Menethil). And it was interesting to explore, because stories and characters felt alive. What you propose is to have never-changing 'beacon of hope' who is 'eternally good' .

Maybe such characters are good enough for you, but for plenty of people (here as well) they are bland and boring.

P.S. I've read a lot of books in my life, and I know when character is interesting even when he is good (i.e. Frodo Baggins), and when he is just stale.

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Well remember that he used to be a kid and a plotdevice(even in pandaria, he was just a secondary character and a plot device).

In BFA blizzard had to convince people he was no longer a little kid and they had to establish his character traits.

SL is the first expansion where i feel like they are going to play around with him a bit and challenge his ideals.

Thats the fun part about having an overall good guy character that people sometimes forget(just like arthas used to be right)

We'll see where they will get with their 'playing around him', but so far it is just continuation of ever-right Anduin we all saw in BfA.

[paxen]

First, what should be the most obvious: the Red Wedding, whether through the books or the show, was the furthest thing from surprising. It is the end result of thousands of pages of foreshadowing, and every small step that was made towards it, especially in the third book, made it abundantly clear that something really bad was going to happen to a whole bunch of characters. If anyone was surprised when it happened, they either weren't paying enough attention to the story and the characters, or they did not care to.

This site needs a like button!


Personally, I feel that WoW (and even more FFXIV) is barking up the wrong tree. It's an *mmo*. You have countless players all interacting together, and in the end the story is for them. Making the player a "chosen one" is extremely wrong, but having the focus on NPCs isn't it either.

Originally we were just random adventurers taking on odd jobs, but players rebelled after downing and expansion endboss or three. This led to having 10 million singular saviors. I wish that wow decided that there's a canonical amount of "player characters" around, perhaps 20 to match up with mythic raid groups, or maybe 40 to have some extra. What kind of story can you tell when there's 40 main characters around? I don't know, but I wish mmo devs would give it some thought.

Note that there could still be interesting NPCs around, but they should not be the main focus. They're our bosses, our managers, our support system, our antagonists, but when shit gets done it's this group of people, one of which is your player character, that does the heavy lifting.

[Varitok]

I have many times said that people are trying to turn WoW into GoT style nihilistic murder story and this sort of proves it.

I'd lose so much fucking interest if they took that route, just leave the game as high fantasy. There are plenty of post-modern depression stories you can all go experience, I don't need that in my fun game about heroes and space goats. GoT has been a blight on modern fantasy.

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A developer is a programmer though? Not a story writer

I've heard people call themselves developers if they work closely with programmers aswell(even though its technically not correct) but i've never heard anyone call story writers a developer

Dev is developer, developing a game. Story is developed too, everyone working on the game is a dev. You're factually wrong.

[paxen]

I see your point, but when I want to read fairy-tale, I get book and read fairy-tale, where good side is always good and kind, and bad side is always bad and evil. Warcraft from the start set another theme for its lore - where baddies are not always bad (Orgrim Doomhammer), and goodies are not always good (Arthas Menethil). And it was interesting to explore, because stories and characters felt alive. What you propose is to have never-changing 'beacon of hope' who is 'eternally good' .

Having one unequivocally good character doesn't turn a story into a fairytale. Captain America is the most obvious example, all the best Cap stories are about his innate sense of justice and fairness rubbing up against a morally gray world. Anduin could easily have similar story arcs.

[haiyken]

Well remember that he used to be a kid and a plotdevice(even in pandaria, he was just a secondary character and a plot device).

A character like Anduin is not a plot device. It doesn't work that way. A plot device is more often an object, a forced situation or a magical resolution that will force the plot to move forward.

Starting in Vanilla, Anduin was never a plot device but only a small side character in the Onyxia storyline. His existence did not move the plot forward, he was part of the story as much as Bolvar or Katrana Prestor. If anything, the mysterious disappearance of Varian was the plot device to put all of this storyline in motion.

In Pandaria he did put into motion the reason for Varian to send ships after him, but it's not really him being a plot device as a setup for a larger story. The fact is that finding Anduin then helping him was a large part of the Jade Forest Alliance storyline, with Anduin being as involved as any other side character from the SI:7. Him taking part of the Garrosh storyline doesn't make him more of a plot device, because the plot device was the Divine Bell itself, forcing conflict between the factions and causing all of the Dalaran/Jaina/Sunreaver storyline. And even then, I don't view the Divine Bell as a real plot device, it's just part of the story being told. Without those kind of wierd magic artefacts, you end up with character with unbelievable powers.

The fact that Anduin didn't have much character development until Legion doesn't make him a plot device, because he's a character, not a plot point. His existence or his actions putting events into motion doesn't make him a plot device, or if that's the case every character is a plot device. It's just not how storytelling works.

I see your point, but when I want to read fairy-tale, I get book and read fairy-tale, where good side is always good and kind, and bad side is always bad and evil. Warcraft from the start set another theme for its lore - where baddies are not always bad (Orgrim Doomhammer), and goodies are not always good (Arthas Menethil). And it was interesting to explore, because stories and characters felt alive. What you propose is to have never-changing 'beacon of hope' who is 'eternally good' .

Maybe such characters are good enough for you, but for plenty of people (here as well) they are bland and boring.

P.S. I've read a lot of books in my life, and I know when character is interesting even when he is good (i.e. Frodo Baggins), and when he is just stale.

As I took the time to point out, Anduin is not never-changing and the "beacon of hope" comes with the burden of him being full of selfdoubt (which can lead to a lot of things in the Warcraft universe). I disagree that having lawful good characters makes everything into a fairy tale, and I hope you can believe that people can still be good in the real world as well. I think it's most interesting to have a character trying to be good in a world that doesn't allow it (like in Warcraft). To see the nuances, you have to also see the extreme. If characters in Warcraft can be irredeemably bad (like Gul'dan), some should be truly good.

I get that you don't like character like theses, but I also see plenty of people liking Anduin, on this forum and elsewhere.

And I'm glad you read a lot of books in your life, I guess ? (I'm joking, but it's a weird statement to make. I've read a lot of books too, and...? My opinion in not more valid than yours because of that... Sorry if I misread what you meant by that, I assure you that I respect you opinion on this topic.)

[ClassicPeon]

I have many times said that people are trying to turn WoW into GoT style nihilistic murder story and this sort of proves it.

I'd lose so much fucking interest if they took that route, just leave the game as high fantasy. There are plenty of post-modern depression stories you can all go experience, I don't need that in my fun game about heroes and space goats. GoT has been a blight on modern fantasy.

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Dev is developer, developing a game. Story is developed too, everyone working on the game is a dev. You're factually wrong.

Developer literally means programmer. I am a programmer. Look up the word if you want

A story teller doesnt help develop a game.

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A character like Anduin is not a plot device. It doesn't work that way. A plot device is more often an object, a forced situation or a magical resolution that will force the plot to move forward.

Anduin 100% used to be a plot device, which is what i said. I didnt say he was one today. Characters can be plot devices

[Halyon]

It definitely don't, the game is completely different from GOT, we don't need the appeal to shock to make something good, we almost don't have characters to do that kind of thing and the devs are not competent enough

This. WoW has never been something extreme in terms of storytelling. It's fairly milktoast and safe when the writers aren't being yanked around by their noses.

[owbu]

The red wedding was a carefully crafted climax which has been preshadowed since book I. Blizzards writing style and time table do not allow for any of that.

And killing off a bunch of characters for the sake of shock value and cast reduction is not a red wedding. And we do seem to get those every other expansion. So far they haven't helped the story much imo.

[Alanar]

No one excatly know what elune is. She could be Azeorth it self. She is using light not only moonlight but light as a whole. Anduin said the light is with him even here in the Maw. Jailer know he need to capture Anduin and put him into his army to take full control to destroy/rule Azeroth.

..but I never said anything about elune and she is not realy connected to anduin in lore, she is connected if at all to Tyrande and that whole story. But putting elune in an already questionable posts, makes it confusing..

Cant make much of what you are trying to say here or what your point is.

[OokOok]

Doesn't work that way, GRRM wrote his novels with the red wedding in mind and planned for in a a series that was going to end eventually a couple books later(it's not done yet but the show is) it was specfically written in place for those characters to die and other main characters take the light in their POV. Robb isn't even a POV character in the books.
WoW has no end date, if you just start killing off main characters in a red wedding like event and the game plans to keep going for another 10 years you're going to run out of main characters and have to make new ones. People don't react well to new "heroes" everytime blizzard adds a new hero to the story people cry "WTF DU U MEAN VOLJIN IS WARCHIEF AND NUT THRALL!? DATS FIN STOOPID" "WTF DU U MEAN SYLVANNAS IS WARCHIEF!? SHES A FKIN CHICK DUDE!!!! VLJINIS DA 1 TRU WARCHIEF" "WHO THE HELL IS ANDUIN!?"

WoW doesn't even have that many lead characters if you think about it. You have what, 10? outside of those 10 it's just a bunch of npcs you never hear from.

[haiyken]

Anduin 100% used to be a plot device, which is what i said. I didnt say he was one today. Characters can be plot devices

Can you please elaborate on how Anduin used to be a plot device ? I've adressed both time Anduin was at a center of a storyline before Legion and explained how he doesn't fit the "plot device" definition, because he was a protagonist of each story, even if he had only a small (and passive) part to play.

I agree that characters can be used as plot device but I disagree it's the case with Anduin in past storylines. By definition, a plot device is any functionally interchangeable story element that drives a significant part of the plot. You can't change Anduin for any other person being on the throne of Stormwind in Classic being protected by Bolvar and manipulated by Onyxia. It has to be Varian's son, or the story is not the same. The same goes for him in Pandaria, where is even have a more involved story.

I'm not saying Anduin was a big or well fleshed out character before, but he wasn't a plot device.

I'm okay with you claiming the opposite, but please elaborate because I just can't see it.

[Okacz]

The idea of "Red Wedding" is mostly mislabeled as just a bloodbath. In the novels its the quintessence of Martins writing style - it's a logical consequence to a series of mistakes made by the characters and their lust for revenge. And it's still suprising, because it subverts the expectation that a good, noble lad with retribution in mind should win the day no matter what. It's an interesting suprise, because something that should be a logical conclusion was not expected by readers who expect the mistakes of "main characters" to be easily forgiven. But it's sort of turned up to 11.

With that context it could fit into WoW pretty well. A lot of the story right now is just accepting some tropes and mindlessly rolling with them, but this in fact leaves a lot of possibilities for such a subversion. Arent the Azerothians a bit too willing to accept the hospitality of Brokers in Oribos, race that has displayed their greed countless times? Isn't Winter Queen a bit too reluctant to help Bwonsomdi, or revive Ysera in the questing storyline? Doesn't the Bastion covenant story conveniently consolidate all the power in Kyrestia, while seemingly dismissing the concerns that caused the Forsworn to become a threat? A lot of threads that can be pulled, all I'm saying.

And it's not like Blizzard didn't try that before. Small subversions of those tropes were used in Legion. Illidan using the ToS campaign recklessly teleport Argus next to Azeroth? The member of once 100% benevolent race (Naaru) expecting subordination to the point of trying to enslave them? Even the "sword into Azeroth" thing fits, it's a suprise that a moment that was usually reserved for triumph (defeating the last boss of the expansion) also causes Azerite grind.

[rowaasr13]

Killing off someone won't do much, especially when it's Anduin or Jaina. Turning Anduin evil on the other hand is a welcome twist as his character progression is non-existent and he needs something.

Turning Jaina evil doesn't change anything, they tried that and it didn't work out.

Make Anduin the new Lich King, Jailer or whatever, make him a psychotic Shadow version of himself, let the Void devour him... something. He's so bland, useless and boring for the last couple of expansions, he needs character development and not more pandering.

Just so some emo edgelords have their orgasm? No, not interested. Keep your fantasies to yourself.

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People act like Anduin is a one-dimensional character while it's far from the truth.

That's because those kind of people who demand more killing or corrupting don't care about intricate details. They just want open raving psychos - that's the only way to please them.

[Syegfryed]

A developer is a programmer though? Not a story writer

I've heard people call themselves developers if they work closely with programmers aswell(even though its technically not correct) but i've never heard anyone call story writers a developer

not at all, to me a developer is everyone who work on the game, Danouser in question is senior game designer and lead narrative designer.

Like i said, if devs are jut programmers, what are the others who work on something else?

[Nyel]

Just so some emo edgelords have their orgasm? No, not interested. Keep your fantasies to yourself.

Anduin at this point servers no purpose. He's weak, he doesn't have character progression and in the end he's completely useless (he has this problem since Legion though). Making him useful or interesting (for either us or the baddies) isn't some fanfiction circlejerk.

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Also no to death knight anduin, been there, done that.

I prefer Void Anduin over Death Anduin. But in the end both versions are still better than Good Boy Anduin, don't you think?