I Hate Borrowed Power

[Nyel]

I hate borrowed power as well, but the Covenants and Soulbinds with Conduits positively remind me of Legion's artifact. It's way better than Azerite and more fun to play with. The only problem will be, again, transitioning away from it. I don't want to lose what I've got during Shadowlands, but that's exactly what's going to happen.

[Lodravel]

I hate borrowed power but for different reasons. It muddles class identity and gameplay.
There's some notable examples of abilities that fit well within their classes toolkit but then there's a whole host of additional effects that are class agnostic and only fit with classes to an extent or barely at all. All of that comes at the cost of making interactions between classes (in PvP) much less concise. You're not fighting their class, you're fighting their covenant and their soulbind. These latter can be quite defining, too - Seed is a good example.
So perhaps I'm not disagreeing with borrowed power as a whole but rather borrowed power that is class agnostic.

Fortunately, it's not as bad as BfA. Thank god. Still not great, though.

[huth]

Eh? Powercreep has never been as bad as it has been in the most recent expansions.

We didn't have power creep in recent expansions. Power inflation is a seperate issue, and very much intended on Blizzard's side.

Power creep is about getting more and more abilities to the point that you can do anything(and it becomes hard to add more). Power inflation is just getting stronger and is at most a technical issue due to limited processing capabilities.

[Bigbazz]

We didn't have power creep in recent expansions. Power inflation is a seperate issue, and very much intended on Blizzard's side.

Power creep is about getting more and more abilities to the point that you can do anything(and it becomes hard to add more). Power inflation is just getting stronger and is at most a technical issue due to limited processing capabilities.

Well more "abilties" in wow doesn't necessarily equal more raw performance, more adaptable sure. When we talk about "power creep" in games like Diablo we're exactly talking about stuff like this, comparable to WoW with all the borrowed powers and neverending scaling. In terms of keybinds in SL i'm back up to my highest amount as I was in MOP before the prune (possibly even more?), they added a tonne of stuff back in SL and we have all these talented abilities + pvp abilities.

But in MOP we didn't have any borrowed powers offering massive scaling potential, it was just ilvl inflation. In Legion we had the never-ending artifact weapons that just kept adding new abilities, procs and synergies and then just outright % scaling slapped on top. In BFA Azerite, essences, corruptions and in SL the Conduits and whatever future renown has in store (I haven't looked to be honest), possible future 2nd legendary slot and tier bonuses + whatever new borrowed power they may add.

The main thing causing massive power gains in old expansions (MOP/WOD) is the raw ilvl gains between tiers, but from Legion a character at the same ilvl would have vastly different performance depending on what patch it was, in addition to ilvl gains also being huge. Power creep has never been worse than in modern expansions, the difference in power just within a single tier these days is unbelievable.


You should explain how you're interpretting the term "power creep" because it's not at all how I've typically seen it used.

[Nak88]

Me too, that's why my main game is Classic and soon TBC/Wrath.

[Big Thanks]

What kind of life do you live when you think having 1 or 2 entire years of the same customization option............
........
....
as something to be sneezed at

What in the actual hell

This is why i will never understand the "borrowed power" argument

[Nerovar]

I hate borrowed power but for different reasons. It muddles class identity and gameplay.
There's some notable examples of abilities that fit well within their classes toolkit but then there's a whole host of additional effects that are class agnostic and only fit with classes to an extent or barely at all. All of that comes at the cost of making interactions between classes (in PvP) much less concise. You're not fighting their class, you're fighting their covenant and their soulbind. These latter can be quite defining, too - Seed is a good example.
So perhaps I'm not disagreeing with borrowed power as a whole but rather borrowed power that is class agnostic.

Fortunately, it's not as bad as BfA. Thank god. Still not great, though.

This is a really great and concise criticism of Blizzard's recent experimentation with borrowed power systems. I think it's also worth bringing up that for every "class agnostic" (as you put it) borrowed power, we're effectively losing out on mechanics that could be part of a core class toolkit. It appears that ever since Blizzard started emphasizing borrowed power systems overall class design has been stagnant with many specs playing pretty much the exact same way for 6 years in a row while only the cherry on top is being changed up a bit every 2 years.
It feels to me like the overreliance on these systems is actively hampering their ability to push class design in new directions and it's starting to become very detrimental to the game. I mean, look at what classes actually got reworked and the amount of community outrage was required to bring attention to the issues. It's insane.
It's like these days they're treating specs like some sort of champions in a moba game that will only be changed if enough people are begging for it.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Then you're shit out of luck, because this game's power was always borrowed.

[Drusin]

I wouldn't mind it if class abilities of our covenant of choice became permanent.

They're just going to add something new again you'll also probably love

[Bigbazz]

I mean yeah? The added power of BfA corruptions and Azerite traits came as a result of the borrowed power, that is, like the name entails, borrowed and culled after every expansion.

They didn't add Azerite traits unto Legion's artifact weapons, the Artifact weapons were made obsolete.

It's very simple, they cannot keep adding stuff permanently, so they add things temporarily, and whatever REALLY works is worked into the talent trees.

That corruptions and Azerite traits were ridiculously strong is not a problem of philosophy but tuning.

The system works as it's intended to work. Imagine a BfA where the artifact weapons scaled up to level cap AND players were Given the Heart of Azeroth AND had corruptions made available to them.

Now imagine a Shadowlands where every bit of added power from Legion and BfA scaled up to level cap along with soul binds.

It's just not feasable.

Well yeah we don't have the borrowed power moving into the new expansion, but we still have an expansions worth of gear/power progression within a single tier and then multiple borrowed power systems per expansion. Like Legion had this several times (from the updated/expanded artifacts to the crucible thing) and BFA too (essences/corruptions). Time will tell if SL gets more systems, but we will already see several times the power progression in this expansion than we would have in old expansions.

In the old days we did get new powers that crossed expansions. Example is in WOTLK Warriors got Titan Grip/Bladestorm, in Cata they got Colossus Smash, in MOP they got Storm Bolt (which used to do huge damage in PVE)... But at the same time they also lost stuff, things got rebalanced and reworked (like SB which is now just a utility) and for WOD we had a huge prune.. It was never these abilities/talents that caused the power, it was the insane increases in ilvl and synergy with set bonuses.

The first big case of a borrowed power causing monstrous power creep was WOD with the legendary ring, which was ludicrously strong. You legit started WOD where 20k dps was pretty good individual dps, and you ended it where a single mage could probably outperform your entire highmaul raid team combined.

[MasterOfNone]

Legion's Artifact/Legendary system was far more impactful than Covenants and it's gone. You'll live. It's not like borrowed power is a new concept anyway. Classic's Legendaries eventually stopped being relevant. As did TBC's. As did Shadowmourne in WotLK. As did the Legendary Staff and Rogue daggers in Cata. As did the cloak in MoP. As did the ring in WoD. See a pattern here yet?

i think hes just being reactionary to be reactionary. there isnt a whole lot of truth or substance to his complaint.

[Santas]

i think hes just being reactionary to be reactionary. there isnt a whole lot of truth or substance to his complaint.

What do you want, exactly? Too many two-dollar shrinks around here, more than I remember, you guys have practically grown roots. Anyhow, it's simple, really, I prefer the old style of power gain (despite its drawbacks) especially since most of the abilities this time around are actually amazing. How to make it more simple for you? Feel free to disagree. And comparing legendaries of old to SL covenant abilities feels a bit hyperbolic. The difference is very clear, and it's becoming more and more apparent with every expansion, same for the impact it has on our classes, and then it vanishes. Usually it also messes with class identity, which I also dislike, this time around it is much better though.

[MasterOfNone]

What do you want, exactly? Too many two-dollar shrinks around here, more than I remember, you guys have practically grown roots. Anyhow, it's simple, really, I prefer the old style of power gain (despite its drawbacks) especially since most of the abilities this time around are actually amazing. How to make it more simple for you? Feel free to disagree. And comparing legendaries of old to SL covenant abilities feels a bit hyperbolic. The difference is very clear, and it's becoming more and more apparent with every expansion, same for the impact it has on our classes, and then it vanishes. Usually it also messes with class identity, which I also dislike, this time around it is much better though.

the dude explained it to you. you arent paying attention. borrowed power has been a thing since the inception of this game with legenaries. at this point you are literally just vomiting word salad and hoping it sticks to create a reaction.

[Beastiel]

I like how most of the responses here are just "This game has always had borrowed power!"

1. borrowed power in the form of abilities is as new as legion and should be considered it's own separate thing. I doubt anyone finds losing set bonuses or outleveling legendaries detrimental to their experience and bringing it up is just a vapid strawman

2. So? are game mechanics immune to criticism because they've bene here a while? how is "well it's here to stay so you're shit out of luck" contributing to the conversation?

Honestly the most frustrating thing i find about borrowed power is there simply isn't enough people working on class design to really understand what abilities are essential to the enjoyment of the rotation and what isn't. So they've been saying since legion that popular borrowed abilities will just be built into the class the next expasion, but it doesn't seem like that actually happens very reliably.

I do think they've learned since legion and that's why most covenant/class abilities are on a 45 second cooldown or longer, so that they don't actually impact the feel of the class quite as much and aren't noticed when they're lost

[Santas]

the dude explained it to you. you arent paying attention. borrowed power has been a thing since the inception of this game with legenaries. at this point you are literally just vomiting word salad and hoping it sticks to create a reaction.

What he and you said is simply not true, and I have been around long enough to know the difference, but like I said -- agree to disagree, keep criticizing me while throwing accusations around about some ulterior motive, like that does anything.

I like how most of the responses here are just "This game has always had borrowed power!"

1. borrowed power in the form of abilities is as new as legion and should be considered it's own separate thing. I doubt anyone finds losing set bonuses or outleveling legendaries detrimental to their experience and bringing it up is just a vapid strawman

2. So? are game mechanics immune to criticism because they've bene here a while? how is "well it's here to stay so you're shit out of luck" contributing to the conversation?

Honestly the most frustrating thing i find about borrowed power is there simply isn't enough people working on class design to really understand what abilities are essential to the enjoyment of the rotation and what isn't. So they've been saying since legion that popular borrowed abilities will just be built into the class the next expasion, but it doesn't seem like that actually happens very reliably.

I do think they've learned since legion and that's why most covenant/class abilities are on a 45 second cooldown or longer, so that they don't actually impact the feel of the class quite as much and aren't noticed when they're lost

I just decided to let people like him and a few others just "be", some are die-hard Blizzard apologists, others are immature and some are just downright typical 'mmo champion argumentative ancients' there should be a title like that for them.

On topic: I couldn't agree more with what you said, there's something wrong with class design in general for the past few years, the last time the devs really tried to add anything fun and inventive was MoP, sure, it make balance into a living nightmare, but many agree that it was the most fun time for classes, the devs really went crazy then.

[MasterOfNone]

What he and you said is simply not true, and I have been around long enough to know the difference, but like I said -- agree to disagree, keep criticizing me while throwing accusations around about some ulterior motive, like that does anything.

im the one with the alterior motive? lol ok. im not the one hand waiving about things that arent true. love it or hate it, legendaries have always been borrowed power. i have a whole bank of them right now. you know what they are worth? NOTHING

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What he and you said is simply not true, and I have been around long enough to know the difference, but like I said -- agree to disagree, keep criticizing me while throwing accusations around about some ulterior motive, like that does anything.


I just decided to let people like him and a few others just "be", some are die-hard Blizzard apologists, others are immature and some are just downright typical 'mmo champion argumentative ancients' there should be a title like that for them.

On topic: I couldn't agree more with what you said, there's something wrong with class design in general for the past few years, the last time the devs really tried to add anything fun and inventive was MoP, sure, it make balance into a living nightmare, but many agree that it was the most fun time for classes, the devs really went crazy then.

YOU started this thread bro. Who is the argumentative one? You couldnt be any further from the truth. I RARELY stick up for blizzard. That doesn't change the truth of what you percieve as "borrowed power". It literally has a different face but the concept is exactly the same. I seriously think you are being naive just to be naive. on top of that you make a thread to complain and then call people out when they tell you the truth of the matter.

[Aucald]

This thread needs to settle down. Debate your points without insinuations or implications going forward.

[ClassicPeon]

I agree that some of the covenant abilities are over the top while others are just plain annoying to use and some dont even work properly for some specs.

Thats not really an issue with borrowed power but more with implementation imo

[Roujeaux]

I would prefer they just revamped the PvE talent trees to work like the PvP talent tree and the best parts of borrowed power systems. Merge specializations back into talents, then let us slot our PvE tree from a pre-defined list of developer curated abilities. Give us around 20 or so slots designed like the Cataclysm talent trees or maybe the Classic trees, with a fairly lengthy list of abilities that can be added or subtracted from as needed.

That way, these expansion specific systems can just work with our pre-existing talent trees instead of attempting to supplant them, and developer attention can go back to maintaining our classes instead of these temporary systems. Pruning or adjusting that list of abilities wouldn't feel as terrible as outright plucking things from a static talent tree.

[huth]

I like how most of the responses here are just "This game has always had borrowed power!"

1. borrowed power in the form of abilities is as new as legion and should be considered it's own separate thing. I doubt anyone finds losing set bonuses or outleveling legendaries detrimental to their experience and bringing it up is just a vapid strawman

Set bonuses are literally the same thing. Some of the abilities have actually been set bonuses before. You're just making arbitrary distinctions to fit your argument.

Whether people miss them isn't really relevant here. Borrowed power isn't new, it's been in the game from the start.

The issue in Legion and BfA was the lack of a solid foundation for the borrowed power to be added to, not the borrowed power itself. This necessarily had to be fixed for the Covenant system to work, since we now have 4 sets of typically rather disparate powers that the class still has to work with.