1. #1561
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The minimum wage debate is stupid
    Right now, that's what happening, except that there are some states that chose not to have a floor.

    They are using the current minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour, and therefore (40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year) $14,500 for a full-time job.

    The poverty line for a single American is $12,500.

    Now maybe your point is "every state should be required to set their own". In which case, yeah, we can find common ground on that one.

    Until then, there are seven states with no minimum wage. They are all red states. Funny story, all seven are also "right to work" states. So if we simply abandon the federal minimum wage, those seven states not only would allow employers to pay $5/hour but would also prohibit collective bargaining to fix that.

    Maybe you'll argue $15/hour is too high. We might find common ground on that one, too. But simply throwing away the federal minimum wage and making no other changes is not an option -- or, it is an option that will just flat-out kill the lower class in seven states.

  2. #1562
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    He hasn't been paying attention to what the Socialdemokratiet and their leftist coalition is doing in Denmark. They're exiling as many immigrants as possible, and forcing the rest into even larger ghettos.

    Making a red/brown alliance over hating immigrants just isnt progressive. Their version of Class Reductionist socialism is doomed to fail.
    lol the social democrats in europe have been shitty and centrists for ages now, try to keep up. Not to mention that social democrats have not been socialists before even your parents where born. But somehow, these parties are the most leftwing ones in your eyes.


    A larger amount of % black and brown people are part of the working class than white people you hate so much, but youll just ignore that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    That you’re still shilling for Trump supporters in your sig doesn’t surprise the rest of us.
    That you still think the majority of the working people or the poor supported Trump also does not surprise me.
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2021-01-18 at 06:19 PM.

  3. #1563
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    "It should be a state issue" = "we need to ensure we have a permanently impoverished underclass because we were taught federalism is good in High School".

    We don't let states decide for the same reason we don't let them decide who gets to be a citizen anymore.

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    Hundreds of billions of dollars in proposed funding to keep businesses open even accounting for things like hazard pay is hardly 'lip service', by American standards at least. At least read the legislative packages you're whinging about. Rofl.
    Biden's plan is to "call on employers to meet their obligation". Sure sounds like lip service to me.

  4. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    Biden's plan is to "call on employers to meet their obligation". Sure sounds like lip service to me.
    That's nice: again, we're talking about what's actually written in the legislative packages.

    Why doesn't your wife's union just go on strike until conditions impro-- oh, wait. Y'all sold your rights to collective bargaining, didn't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #1565
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    lol the social democrats in europe have been shitty and centrists for ages now, try to keep up. Not to mention that social democrats have not been socialists before even your parents where born. But somehow, these parties are the most leftwing ones in your eyes.


    A larger amount of % black and brown people are part of the working class than white people you hate so much, but youll just ignore that.

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    That you still think the majority of the working people or the poor supported Trump also does not surprise me.
    It helps if people understood that social Democrat and democratic socialist are two entirely different things. Only one aims to be post capitalistic. Though perhaps confusion happened due to Bernie claiming to be a democratic socialist when he is really a social democrat.

  6. #1566
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Right now, that's what happening, except that there are some states that chose not to have a floor.

    They are using the current minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour, and therefore (40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year) $14,500 for a full-time job.

    The poverty line for a single American is $12,500.

    Now maybe your point is "every state should be required to set their own". In which case, yeah, we can find common ground on that one.

    Until then, there are seven states with no minimum wage. They are all red states. Funny story, all seven are also "right to work" states. So if we simply abandon the federal minimum wage, those seven states not only would allow employers to pay $5/hour but would also prohibit collective bargaining to fix that.

    Maybe you'll argue $15/hour is too high. We might find common ground on that one, too. But simply throwing away the federal minimum wage and making no other changes is not an option -- or, it is an option that will just flat-out kill the lower class in seven states.
    Yeah the argument isn't without merit. For example a livable wage for a single person with no kids in Oklahoma is around 11 bucks an hour compared to Just over 16 buck an hour in New York

    I wonder if you could set a federal law that requires each state to have a minimum wage in line with a living wage calculation for a single adult in that state, or something to that effect and that the minimum wage should be recalculate every 5 years or so.

  7. #1567
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    the minimum wage should be recalculate every 5 years or so.
    This is also a key feature. I won't go through state by state but the federal minimum wage took place in 2009. Even at 2% inflation, that's +25% since then. Try increasing monsters health/damage by +25% without increasing your ilvl and see what happens. If you were comfortable before, you're slogging now. If you were struggling before, you're dead.

  8. #1568
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post

    That you still think the majority of the working people or the poor supported Trump also does not surprise me.
    45% of the working class or poor voted for Trump. That’s a frighteningly huge amount of people. Like more than the entire population of Scandinavia huge.

    Also 58 million racist white people for voted for Trump. Are these your people?

  9. #1569
    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    Expecting corporations at large to ever do the right thing just for the sake of it is pretty naive. My gripe is that the government is still continuing to focus on the unemployed while essential workers get only lip service.
    Gotcha....so corporations are precious and untouchable and since they won't change the government better give the poor people less money.

    Makes perfect sense.

  10. #1570
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    It helps if people understood that social Democrat and democratic socialist are two entirely different things. Only one aims to be post capitalistic. Though perhaps confusion happened due to Bernie claiming to be a democratic socialist when he is really a social democrat.
    It really helps to understand that in America things will still get divided along racial lines. Like if America got over its fear of socialism you would just end up with a bunch of non racist socialists and a bunch of racist socialists.

  11. #1571
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    It helps if people understood that social Democrat and democratic socialist are two entirely different things. Only one aims to be post capitalistic. Though perhaps confusion happened due to Bernie claiming to be a democratic socialist when he is really a social democrat.
    Another fun fact is that the hard european left(socialists, various anarchist groups, communists etc..] and social democrats in europe have hated eachother for over a 100 years now.

  12. #1572
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    It really helps to understand that in America things will still get divided along racial lines. Like if America got over its fear of socialism you would just end up with a bunch of non racist socialists and a bunch of racist socialists.
    Perhaps but also take note that a lot of issues related to "workers" cross racial divides.

    Before the bacon rebellion, black slaves weren't chattel and their children were free. This put them, class wise, in a similar position to self-indentured and forcibly indentured workers from Europe who also had free children and never got what they were promised.

    What drove these two groups apart however were the wealthy masters created new rules around slavery, making blacks forever chattel and a race of slaves period. This created a new lower class and the rebellions did die down as now whites were part of a slightly higher class and fell in line.

    This is the exact problem you see repeated. In this case, I would say the white poor compared to the slaves were the Petty Bourgeoisie, and as history has shown us those types of people are integral to ensuring authoritarianism and fascism.

    Then we see over time lots of pseudoscience about intelligence and how all whites were above all something we had not really seen before(though Anglo whites were supreme of course) furthering the creation of this class divide that helped keep the oppression on.

    I do believe you'd have racists of course but I think you'd have fewer, and we should note that history has shown us in the USA's past that the best way to drive a wedge between two groups of working exploited poor was to exploit one a little bit more to make the other slightly comfortable and become an enemy to the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Another fun fact is that the hard european left(socialists, various anarchist groups, communists etc..] and social democrats in europe have hated eachother for over a 100 years now.
    Given your abolitionist avatar, I'll use this example that could explain the animosity for some other posters.

    Socialist: "All men are equal, slavery needs to be abolished!"

    Social Democrat: "All men are equal and slavery should be abolished. In the meantime we should try to pass legislation to ensure slaves are well fed, well dressed, aren't beaten and have the legal right to a maximum of 14 hours consecutive work. Eventually, we can pass more laws to get rid of slavery altogether!"

    This actually was a thing between the "radical republicans" and the moderates who didn't want to change the fundamental system, but instead, work within it to effect slow slow slow change.

    While the radicals were like "The problem is the system of slavery, not that the slave isn't fed enough. It's the fact they're a person that's a slave you fool!"

    It often seems to come down to one side saying "This needs to happen" and the other saying "This should ideally happen but... let's work within the system to make it better"

    The former usually needs some sort of major backing of the people bordering on a revolution, if not a revolution. While the other... well... the other just keeps failing as far as Amerca is concerned.
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-01-18 at 06:57 PM.

  13. #1573
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Gotcha....so corporations are precious and untouchable and since they won't change the government better give the poor people less money.

    Makes perfect sense.
    That is basically the opposite of what I said. The government needs to stop playing with the kids gloves with corporations, and that should be a higher priority for progressives than
    temporary unemployment benefits.

  14. #1574
    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    That is basically the opposite of what I said. The government needs to stop playing with the kids gloves with corporations, and that should be a higher priority for progressives than
    temporary unemployment benefits.
    People still have to live

  15. #1575
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    That is basically the opposite of what I said. The government needs to stop playing with the kids gloves with corporations, and that should be a higher priority for progressives than
    temporary unemployment benefits.
    They're not mutually exclusive.

    Again, maybe y'all shouldn't have sold off your collective bargaining rights and demonised unions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  16. #1576
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    People still have to live
    And 400 weekly extra on top of state benefits is plenty to live comfortably on in the vast majority of states... If it isn't where you live that seems like a more local problem that should be handled by a more local government.

  17. #1577
    Just gonna drop this here:

    https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/10/a-...-like-gdp.html

    For workers at the 25th percentile of income, their income in 1975 was $28,000 per year in real 2018 dollars. If those incomes had kept pace with GDP growth (the counterfactual), their 2018 income would be $61,000. In actuality, it rose to only $33,000.

    By contrast, for workers at the 99th percentile of the income distribution, their 1975 real income of $257,000 would have risen to $560,000 by 2018 at the target growth rate. In fact, it rose to $761,000.
    From 1975 to 2018, the difference between the aggregate taxable income for those below the 90th percentile and the equitable growth counterfactual totals $47 trillion.
    That is to say... the bottom 90% lost 47 trillion to the top who stagnated wages and fatted themselves. And not much has changed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    And 400 weekly extra on top of state benefits is plenty to live comfortably on in the vast majority of states... If it isn't where you live that seems like a more local problem that should be handled by a more local government.
    Is there a reason why you are out the gate trying to cap a minimum wage? This is the problem with moderates.... "Let's start from behind and see what we get!"

  18. #1578
    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    That is basically the opposite of what I said. The government needs to stop playing with the kids gloves with corporations, and that should be a higher priority for progressives than
    temporary unemployment benefits.
    They aren't mutually exclusive.

  19. #1579
    I just don't see how you can argue for 900 dollar weekly unemployment without also arguing in favor of a 23-25 $/h minimum wage. In no universe does that not get you laughed out of congress. Its just not pragmatic.

  20. #1580
    Quote Originally Posted by cordrann View Post
    I just don't see how you can argue for 900 dollar weekly unemployment without also arguing in favor of a 23-25 $/h minimum wage. In no universe does that not get you laughed out of congress. Its just not pragmatic.
    Easy, one is temporary and the other is sort of permanent.

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