Is it Time to Bring Back Primary Stats?

[TrollHunter3000]

You are correct, except with pieces that are not jewelry and weapons. For all other pieces (9 of them), primary stat is a direction reflection of itemlevel. Every helm, shoulder, cloak, chest, bracer, gloves, belt, pants, and boots of the same itemlevel will have exactly the same primary without exception. That's why I think the system needs to change. It is uninspired and uninteresting. It is exciting to see secondary values interact with each other. I would love to see some exception in primary as well.

I think boring is a fully valid argument when discussing things people do for fun. Getting gear is interesting for a lot of people. Currently the only choice being made is secondaries. I would love for a little more excitement in gearing.

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Itemlevel determines stat budgets for Armor, Primary stat, Stamina, Critical Strike, Haste, Mastery, Versatility. Only secondaries get to deviate - that is what I don't like. Armor, Primary stat, and Stamina could be hidden completely and it wouldn't matter. The game already does not tell you how primary stats affect your abilities.

Literally all you're asking for then is for it to be more difficult for the average player to know when an item is an upgrade such as when secondaries were stronger than primary stat. That issue still exists for rings and neck already where someone takes an item with worse stats for their class just because it's higher ilvl and they actually lose dps and are completely unaware. The fuck you mean it doesn't tell you how it affects your abilities? It makes them hit harder.

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It's not a matter of lack of knowledge. It's a matter of the game being better by adding flavor. Primaries are just flat stats that don't do anything that could be done through itemlevel - that's what I want to change.

This is such a stupid fucking complaint lmao

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remove gear from the game make it all cosmetic, and balans stats with gems that drop from bosses and the likes, everyone gets what they want.

Isn't that just turning gear into gems. It would essentially be the same thing lmao

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I fully understand how it works. I am suggesting it is time to change. Games need to evolve. 16-year-old games die if they do not change. Nothing of what I'm asking is in the game. What is in the game is powerful, bland primary stats that serve no purpose other than making numbers bigger.

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I fully understand how it works. I am suggesting it is time to change. Games need to evolve. 16-year-old games die if they do not change. Nothing of what I'm asking is in the game. What is in the game is powerful, bland primary stats that serve no purpose other than making numbers bigger with zero differentiation between similar pieces.

The game isn't even close to dead and has drastically changed over the years. What the fuck do you think stats are supposed to do? They make you hit harder/heal more like that's literally their purpose. You want some kind of weird complex stats that do other shit then that's just going to make gearing more complicated.

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They often change how spells interact with eachother and stacking certain stats change rotations. Primary do not change anything other than make every ability more powerful. Additionally, primary stats are a guaranteed, inflexible part of items. Secondaries are fully modifiable. Going from 0% crit to 10% crit does not equate to a 10% damage increase. It is much more complex than that, especially with certain specs. There is a difference between 'ultimately boils down to' and 'does.'

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I am making perfect sense, you are not comprehending it. I will summarize:

Primary stats on gear should be more interesting and not rigidly defined by itemlevel.

Rotations haven't existed in the game since like wrath.

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You know what, I agree with you... Balance is important ofc, but as you say now... those stats... has become pointless and could be invisible... since they make no sence... and if stats become like that... what is the point of them, I do remember when stats made sence to go for, and that feeling is great.

Its understandable for the Min/maxers they want less things to calculate on and have the perfect balace... but that makes things boring, stuff like that should be a Player choice not... make it an over all thing that is the same for everyone.

Hope what you say will happen, It was so fun in vanilla when a green item droped with "Intelect and agility".

So I am all for making it more interesting.

PS: picking the right stats should be a thing a good player does, not what the game does for you in Default mode.

PPS: if you ask me all the stats... should be useful in some way for all the classes.

Players always have a choice. The choice between being sub-optimal or playing the game correctly.

[Jonnusthegreat]

You must have not raided in a decent guild since personal loot.

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The fuck are you talking about? Higher ilvl gear has a higher budget for stats. All stats, both primary and secondary. You're not even making a real argument. How does those "do something interesting" anymore than primary stat? They make your dps or hps go up.

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The ilvl decides the stat budget........ fuck you're dense.

You're missing the entire point.

[Skorpionss]

I just wish we had more secondary stats than Crit, Haste, Mastery and Versatility, with one or more being nearly useless for most specs... Or at least make primaries do something other than straight AP/SP increases... The way they are now they may just as well remove primaries and nothing would really change... just make weapons give 1000 attack power/spell power based on spec and be done with primaries forever...

[huth]

I am making perfect sense, you are not comprehending it. I will summarize:

Primary stats on gear should be more interesting and not rigidly defined by itemlevel.

You responded to a post saying that you're asking the devs to break the gear system with "That is the purpose of this thread". Not one saying what you're 'summarising' here. So the one with comprehension issues here is you.

It also doesn't make your request any more sensible. Primaries provide a solid baseline to work with. "Interesting" cannot be done with everything, both because you quickly run out of workable ideas that are actually interesting to work with, and because you quickly run into major balancing issues with unintended interactions.
There's also the problem that your idea of "interesting" may wildy differ from what the devs consider such, and most likely simply wouldn't fit in their design plans for the game with out some major course corrections that are likely going to take an expansion or two to do.

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I just wish we had more secondary stats than Crit, Haste, Mastery and Versatility, with one or more being nearly useless for most specs... Or at least make primaries do something other than straight AP/SP increases... The way they are now they may just as well remove primaries and nothing would really change... just make weapons give 1000 attack power/spell power based on spec and be done with primaries forever...

All that would achieve is making it harder for you to get the two secondaries you like. It won't change anything about the fact that some secondaries are going to be worse than others, or as you call it "nearly useless".

[Blackmist]

No thanks. Vanilla was badly designed. I have no desire for that again. Classic is there for all your clothadin fantasies.

[Jonnusthegreat]

You responded to a post saying that you're asking the devs to break the gear system with "That is the purpose of this thread". Not one saying what you're 'summarising' here. So the one with comprehension issues here is you.

It also doesn't make your request any more sensible. Primaries provide a solid baseline to work with. "Interesting" cannot be done with everything, both because you quickly run out of workable ideas that are actually interesting to work with, and because you quickly run into major balancing issues with unintended interactions.
There's also the problem that your idea of "interesting" may wildy differ from what the devs consider such, and most likely simply wouldn't fit in their design plans for the game with out some major course corrections that are likely going to take an expansion or two to do.

Expressing my concern for changing the current gear system to make primary stats more interesting is, in fact, the purpose of this thread. I summarized it right there for you (again). Primaries should be more flexible. I find it silly that plate has only strength and that leather has only agility, for example. Items should be more unique. Balance is an issue. Look how covenants turned out.

[huth]

Expressing my concern for changing the current gear system to make primary stats more interesting is, in fact, the purpose of this thread. I summarized it right there for you (again). Primaries should be more flexible. I find it silly that plate has only strength and that leather has only agility, for example. Items should be more unique. Balance is an issue. Look how covenants turned out.

And you're asking for the balance to be made worse. Not to mention that you can't seem to find a line for what you even want. Plate has Strength and Intelligence. It doesn't have Agility because Agility is completely worthless to Plate users. Unique isn't the same as good or interesting, either, and there are far to many items for regular stats to make them unique at this point.

[Skorpionss]

All that would achieve is making it harder for you to get the two secondaries you like. It won't change anything about the fact that some secondaries are going to be worse than others, or as you call it "nearly useless".

There can be solutions to that, like bracers can have 2 of Haste, Crit and Mastery, gloves can have 2 of Haste, Mastery and Versatility, Weapons could only have 2 of Crit, Armor Penetration and something else... They could bring back Reforging in one way or another, maybe tie it to professions instead of being a vendor service.

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And you're asking for the balance to be made worse. Not to mention that you can't seem to find a line for what you even want. Plate has Strength and Intelligence. It doesn't have Agility because Agility is completely worthless to Plate users. Unique isn't the same as good or interesting, either, and there are far to many items for regular stats to make them unique at this point.

The balance is already a joke so why not at least make the game more fun since they obviously can't balance it anyway?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Expressing my concern for changing the current gear system to make primary stats more interesting is, in fact, the purpose of this thread. I summarized it right there for you (again). Primaries should be more flexible. I find it silly that plate has only strength and that leather has only agility, for example. Items should be more unique. Balance is an issue. Look how covenants turned out.

Are you saying that primary stats should add something extra like they used to (ie. Intellect increased your mana pool, Agility increases dodge chance, Strength increases parry chance) or are you suggesting that they just randomly add primary stats to pieces that it makes no sense for them to be on (ie. cloth with agility on it)?

Cause I can't figure out which it is, and I don't think I'm alone in my confusion.

[huth]

There can be solutions to that, like bracers can have 2 of Haste, Crit and Mastery, gloves can have 2 of Haste, Mastery and Versatility, Weapons could only have 2 of Crit, Armor Penetration and something else...

That does pretty much the exact opposite of fixing it. Not to mention ArPen being good for something like 2-3 specs out of 36, so having it as a stat would be a terrible idea.

The balance is already a joke so why not at least make the game more fun since they obviously can't balance it anyway?

Because making the situation worse isn't helping.

Are you saying that primary stats should add something extra like they used to (ie. Intellect increased your mana pool, Agility increases dodge chance, Strength increases parry chance) or are you suggesting that they just randomly add primary stats to pieces that it makes no sense for them to be on (ie. cloth with agility on it)?

Cause I can't figure out which it is, and I don't think I'm alone in my confusion.

Probably both, and likely with other damage affecting effects as well. Which would likely put us back at those glorious str/agi cloth boots that absolutely nobody has any idea why they even exist.

[hulkgor]

snip

Disagree entirely with your opinion, and i think gearing\itemization is in a good place right now (except amount of loot drop in raids\m+, but that's a different discussion).

[Xires]

Is it primary stat that makes itemlevel upgrades or just itemlevel? Was it the chicken or the egg? This is the point - it is simply a copy paste of another formula.

Why would you want crit? Why would you want mastery? Because they do something interesting. Primary stat does not.

lol what? Yes, primary stats are what makes the item an upgrade along with your pref secondary stats. Right now for a lot of people primary stats outweigh secondary stats by almost 3 to 1 in dps power.
Primary stats make you hit harder. That is their purpose.

[Essem]

Current items are incredibly boring. Every single belt of the same ilvl has the exact same amount of int/str/agi and stamina. The current secondary stats are boring too, haste/mastery/vers/crit. Haste and crit are fine though.

It's also presented on the items in a dull way. It "looks" like every item is the same.
Instead of just +49 Haste i prefer it back when it said "Increases your Haste Rating by 49" makes the item come more alive and be more memorable.

I also think stats that have a "hardcap" is good. It's typically a very very good stat until you reach that cap and plummets in value after that. Makes you think about your gear a bit more and juggle stats.
Now its just pack on as much x stats as your simcraft says without any thinking.

[Firefall]

Old main stats are not compatible with personal loot, because you either have IE the warrior loot table include nearly every item in the tier and make it awful trying to get what you want, or you just have everyone locked-into one set of armor anyway and nothing changes from how it is now.

[Lazerbrain]

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Isn't that just turning gear into gems. It would essentially be the same thing lmao
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Well it would be almost the same, but people would not complain about plate users using leather and it would be easier to make a wide variety of stats available.

And before anyone says you can always sim the best, for raw power yes, but if skills would be affected differently from more stats, there could potentially be a increase in spec variation.

You could even expand this system to remove gear manager and just let us save different gemsetups, allowing us to switch on the fly without having to carry a lot of gear in backpack.

[dadoodoo]

yes, I am aware idiot-proofing the game is necessary

Why is it though? is it not insulting to someone to tell them they cannot learn something before they are even given the chance to do so?

Idiot proofing the game is why the general community is made up of nothing but average players with a tiny pool of good players, all the players that played for 4 years played with idiot proofing, they didnt have to open there spellbook there is only 4 buttons to press, they didnt have to look deeply at there gear there is nothing to reforge, no hit points to consider, no haste breakpoints to calculate.

Blizzard gradually took out everything i enjoy about the game (the depth) the thinking, there is nothing to think about anymore as you said, just equip highest ilvl and press your 3 buttons.

is it not elitest and patronising to presume everyone is dumb and simplify everything for them?

I remember when the game had depth, take resto druid:

Then:
8% haste 4th rejuv
9.5% extra lifebloom tick
11.4% haste 5 regrowth tick
15% haste 5 rejuv ticks
17% extra lifebloom tick
21% 6 regrowth tick
27% 6 rejuv
31% extra lifebloom tick
while balancing spirt intellect and other stats you would have to decide which breakpoint to get inline with.

now:
equip highest ilvl.

Just shows how far blizzard have come in there "simplifying" mission since wotlk

The game gradually went from a game where your ability would get you far to a game where the most important thing was how fun you was to be around, even if you are very very good if your not sociable and overly fun to be around then they can make do with lesser skilled players because the game is no longer as demanding as it was.

Your skill and ability no longer has a platform.

[Tradu]

I am making perfect sense, you are not comprehending it. I will summarize:

Primary stats on gear should be more interesting and not rigidly defined by itemlevel.

No. The explicit purpose of primary stat is to push you towards picking higher ilevel, because it's easier for the vast majority of players to understand if they can just equip their highest ilevel items and be fine. If you want more interesting stats, making secondaries interesting should be the goal(maybe even add new ones).

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Why is it though? is it not insulting to someone to tell them they cannot learn something before they are even given the chance to do so?

Idiot proofing the game is why the general community is made up of nothing but average players with a tiny pool of good players, all the players that played for 4 years played with idiot proofing, they didnt have to open there spellbook there is only 4 buttons to press, they didnt have to look deeply at there gear there is nothing to reforge, no hit points to consider, no haste breakpoints to calculate.

Blizzard gradually took out everything i enjoy about the game (the depth) the thinking, there is nothing to think about anymore as you said, just equip highest ilvl and press your 3 buttons.

is it not elitest and patronising to presume everyone is dumb and simplify everything for them?

I remember when the game had depth, take resto druid:

Then:
8% haste 4th rejuv
9.5% extra lifebloom tick
11.4% haste 5 regrowth tick
15% haste 5 rejuv ticks
17% extra lifebloom tick
21% 6 regrowth tick
27% 6 rejuv
31% extra lifebloom tick
while balancing spirt intellect and other stats you would have to decide which breakpoint to get inline with.

now:
equip highest ilvl.

Just shows how far blizzard have come in there "simplifying" mission since wotlk

The game gradually went from a game where your ability would get you far to a game where the most important thing was how fun you was to be around, even if you are very very good if your not sociable and overly fun to be around then they can make do with lesser skilled players because the game is no longer as demanding as it was.

Your skill and ability no longer has a platform.

Get over yourself. As much as I liked having breakpoints and cappable stats in the game, knowing those numbers didn't make you some sort of superhuman genius. It was the equivalent of looking up which soulbind to use in the current game or simming top gear on raidbots. We had tools to calculate the best gear setup, accounting for breakpoints, back in the day. We have even better tools now.

[Amaterasu65]

I'd prefer if we had creative new secondaries to play around. WoD tried but didn't quite do it.

Or at least give us the Pandaria reforge system so we can divide one secondary stat for half of another one.

Then again the stats at this point can be so min-max'd due to the evolution of simming with raidbots etc and the whole research stuff happening for all classes, that I don't know if I want any more, considering the combinations of stats with so many different borrowed powers (like in BFA when we had azerite, essences, corruptions). I'm sure SL will get to a similar point with covenants, full soulbinds, legendary powers and tier sets.

[Vilendor]

Ever since the homogenization that happened over a decade ago, primary stats have disappeared from the game, except as a sub-stat completely defined by itemlevel and slot. Every item of the same itemlevel and slot has exactly the same primary stat. Since this is the case - the primary stat actually serves no purpose in decision making. Players have long equated primary stat with itemlevel.

We used to have exciting interactions where players had to choose for example Strength vs. Agility, in addition to secondary distributions, because each gave a different benefit, of which we knew what they did. Today, itemlevel, erm, a primary stat "Increases the magnitude of your attacks and abilities." This is a boring iteration that has made loot not exciting, and idiot-proof (yes, I am aware idiot-proofing the game is necessary).

We have personal loot now. We no longer need to have the community decide that the cloth pants should go to the Moonkin because they are the flavor of the tier. Each individual player is in charge of what items they receive and use.

I don't know what game did you play, but beside some blue quality items in Vanilla WoW during leveling (literally 16 years ago) that never happened. The example you gave us about the cloth Moonkin has nothing to do with main stats, a Moonkin will always use intellect. Your example is about classes using a gear type that's not their main. It's a horrible idea and destroys morale when every single intellect user in your raid group want the same loot. Yeaaah, it was so much fun when 25 out of 40 people rolled for the Azuresong Mageblade in MC, right? NO

[czarek]

Actually itemization is quite flat. 1st of all i ilvl sadly. After secondary stats. Stamina just came with higher ilvl sadly 0 diveristy