Is it Time to Bring Back Primary Stats?

[huth]

I don't know what game did you play, but beside some blue quality items in Vanilla WoW during leveling (literally 16 years ago) that never happened. The example you gave us about the cloth Moonkin has nothing to do with main stats, a Moonkin will always use intellect. Your example is about classes using a gear type that's not their main. It's a horrible idea and destroys morale when every single intellect user in your raid group want the same loot. Yeaaah, it was so much fun when 25 out of 40 people rolled for the Azuresong Mageblade in MC, right? NO

The Moonkin example is even worse... they didn't wear cloth because it was interesting or anything. They wore cloth because that was the only thing there was. Once BC gave us actual caster leather, cloth was quickly abandoned since none of them actually wanted the stuff.

[Zephire]

Back in the day everything was suboptimal, more or less. That is not the case today where everything has power to it.

You went Leather instead of Mail due to the former having a stat you wanted. Today the stats you want are represented on your main armour type.

Primary and Stamina easily explains that you get those two. It could just be ilvl and everyone would get as much primary and Stamina as the ilvl (and the scales adjusted accordingly) but it would reduce one layer of information that new players find usefull.

In most cases I find gear stats really boring. Especially when something some 13 ilvl lower is considered better due to its secondary stat combination. I don't even have enough loot to really make a choice because I just have to roll with the little I get.

I rather take corruption 2.0 without stat booster corruptions, balanced better and unable to farm for a specific. Was fun combinding things to stay lower than X corruption while maxing whatever you wanted and only mixing between what you actually had gotten on your gear. When we could buy it, the excitement completely left me. Was nice to have exactly what I wanted but that made me not care about corruptions after that as well.

[Elkfingers]

Is it primary stat that makes itemlevel upgrades or just itemlevel? Was it the chicken or the egg? This is the point - it is simply a copy paste of another formula.

Why would you want crit? Why would you want mastery? Because they do something interesting. Primary stat does not.

You're overthinking this. It's primary stat. All ilvl does is determine how the stats are budgeted - it's the stats themselves that makes higher ilvl gear interesting, not the other way around.

Neither primary or secondary stats are interesting in and of themselves. In isolation all they do is make numbers go big. The interesting part is the interaction *between* stats. Crit amplifies every other stat because it makes the numbers bigger. Haste amplifies every other stat because it makes the big numbers happen faster. Vers functions in essence the same as primary stat, but also synergises with it in that it amplifies the gains granted by having higher primary stat by a flat %. Mastery creates bigger numbers from the mastery effect to be in turn amplified by the other stats. The optimisation happens in determining the ideal ratio of these stats based on your available gear.

Primary stat does, in fact, create interesting choices by virtue of it amplifying the effects of all secondary stats. Were that not the case, you would just choose gear based on it having appropriate secondaries irrespective of ilvl because anything else would almost certainly result in lower output. Having primary stat increases on higher ilvl gear is what allows gear with terrible secondary stats to still represent a viable (if suboptimal) upgrade path.

The way things are now, you can get a big ilvl upgrade with shit stats and still not feel awful about it. Sure it might not be ideal loot for that slot, but you still get a powerspike even if you know you'll be replacing it down the line instead of having to wait for the perfect item to drop.

You know what really wasn't interesting? BiS lists. That's the alternative.

[TrollHunter3000]

You're missing the entire point.

You're not making any points to miss bruh

[Echocho]

They're already in the game. You don't actually want iLvl, iLvl isn't a stat increase, you want the main stat associated with the iLvl.

This just sounds like a perception problem to me.

[Jonnusthegreat]

And you're asking for the balance to be made worse. Not to mention that you can't seem to find a line for what you even want. Plate has Strength and Intelligence. It doesn't have Agility because Agility is completely worthless to Plate users. Unique isn't the same as good or interesting, either, and there are far to many items for regular stats to make them unique at this point.

Maybe balance isn't my top priority? Maybe it's interesting interactions in gearing choices?

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Are you saying that primary stats should add something extra like they used to (ie. Intellect increased your mana pool, Agility increases dodge chance, Strength increases parry chance) or are you suggesting that they just randomly add primary stats to pieces that it makes no sense for them to be on (ie. cloth with agility on it)?

Cause I can't figure out which it is, and I don't think I'm alone in my confusion.

Both would be great. Would be strange to see agility on a plate piece if it literally did nothing for your class, now wouldn't it?

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Old main stats are not compatible with personal loot, because you either have IE the warrior loot table include nearly every item in the tier and make it awful trying to get what you want, or you just have everyone locked-into one set of armor anyway and nothing changes from how it is now.

For it to work, warriors would still only be able to get plate, obviously, but plate items would also include agility, which would do something.

[huth]

Maybe balance isn't my top priority? Maybe it's interesting interactions in gearing choices?

Then make up your mind what you actually want. So far we've got stats being interesting, stats having interesting interactions or interesting interactions in gearing choices. Those are completely different requests.

[Jonnusthegreat]

snip

I wish it were more complex, too, but with the specific example of haste breakpoints and hot overlapping, I'm glad that evolved. With all the evolutions we have now, I think it's a good time to go back to the RPG elements of stats instead of primary stats being no different than being itemlevel.

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I don't know what game did you play, but beside some blue quality items in Vanilla WoW during leveling (literally 16 years ago) that never happened. The example you gave us about the cloth Moonkin has nothing to do with main stats, a Moonkin will always use intellect. Your example is about classes using a gear type that's not their main. It's a horrible idea and destroys morale when every single intellect user in your raid group want the same loot. Yeaaah, it was so much fun when 25 out of 40 people rolled for the Azuresong Mageblade in MC, right? NO

Enhancement shamen desired strength pieces for the increased attack power. Additionally, there is zero affect on morale when personal loot is involved. 25 people out of 40 might roll for the Mageblade, and maybe 3 of them get it. That's how personal works.

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You're overthinking this. It's primary stat. All ilvl does is determine how the stats are budgeted - it's the stats themselves that makes higher ilvl gear interesting, not the other way around.

My point is that if it WERE the other way around, literally nothing would change. Since one is defined solely based on the other, there is zero difference between the stats.

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Then make up your mind what you actually want. So far we've got stats being interesting, stats having interesting interactions or interesting interactions in gearing choices. Those are completely different requests.

Re-read the OP, you'll find the answer there. Also in the post you just quoted. Your choice. They state the same thing.

[huth]

Re-read the OP, you'll find the answer there. Also in the post you just quoted. Your choice. They state the same thing.

No, they don't. That's the point.

[Ealyssa]

But if the formula is completely related to itemlevel with zero differentiation, is it needed?.

Yes. Because it has a function : power. ilvl is just an abstract nuimber, main stat has a clear mandatory purpose : increasing your character power.

The whole system needs primary stat so that "gearing up" is somewhat linear and relevant. Sure you can create a completely different system closer to vanilla where a 48 level blue can be better than a 60 level epic for your character. But that is not something the waste majority of retail's players nor Blizzard want.

[Whitedragon]

Would be cool for things like pallys, where I could say go for side stats of int to make me a better off healer, or agility to make give me a little more survivability. I will also say I'm one of the weirdos who liked resistances and other "odd" stats given as pure bonuses.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Yes. Because it has a function : power. ilvl is just an abstract nuimber, main stat has a clear mandatory purpose : increasing your character power.

The whole system needs primary stat so that "gearing up" is somewhat linear and relevant. Sure you can create a completely different system closer to vanilla where a 48 level blue can be better than a 60 level epic for your character. But that is not something the waste majority of retail's players nor Blizzard want.

That same purpose can be fulfilled solely by itemlevel of the armor piece. Since primary stat is derived from itemlevel and itemlevel alone, it doesn't serve a legitimate purpose that the itemlevel alone couldn't fulfill. If they gave itemlevel the 'power' boost and erase primary stats altogether, the game would function exactly the same. That's the point - it's not a good system. Power boosts are needed. You get it from itemlevel. Primary stats are just a needless and redundant placeholder.

[Volardelis]

Didn't they make the actual armor your class wore give you a bonus in Wrath? I remember distinctly liking that decision because of all the drama leather loot caused to me wanting it as enhance in TBC, since many leather items like Vision of Sargeras were so damn good. But in wrath, you lost flat out 5% of damage or agility or something significant if you didn't wear mail in all armor slots. Didn't you have that as a healer?

That came with the Cata pre-patch.

[D3athsting]

Plz bring back spirit on rogue tier or agility on green cloth items

[huth]

That same purpose can be fulfilled solely by itemlevel of the armor piece. Since primary stat is derived from itemlevel and itemlevel alone, it doesn't serve a legitimate purpose that the itemlevel alone couldn't fulfill. If they gave itemlevel the 'power' boost and erase primary stats altogether, the game would function exactly the same.

Because that isn't actually a change. That's exactly what primary stats do.

[czarek]

Apparently on my Prot Paladin my ilv 207 cloak with crit and haste is crap for tanking compared to my ilv 190 cloak with mastery and versatility. And that goes for every high ilv that does not have mastery or versatility compared to a lower ilv with both on.

At least the Pawn addon tells me so, but maybe that is all wrong.

So in a way for simple ppl like me it was a nice time when higher ilv = better gear.

Yes i know but there is no way to push stats. U cant push full stamina or full agai stat in gear. That was quite fun :P iLvl is a must higher as u can there is no other option. U can just minmax with secodary stat. Its good with patch periods and gating system because we change full gear every few next months all over again.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Because that isn't actually a change. That's exactly what primary stats do.

That's the problem.

[huth]

That's the problem.

No, that's you not getting basic mechanics.

[Jonnusthegreat]

No, that's you not getting basic mechanics.

If you truly believe that, then you've no purpose left in this thread, since it's wrong and not conducive to discussion. Bye.

[Elkfingers]

My point is that if it WERE the other way around, literally nothing would change. Since one is defined solely based on the other, there is zero difference between the stats.

Hold up. I take the time to lay out how you're wrong, and why. Your response is 'nuh-uh, imma just restate my premise'?

The function of stats is not granted by other stats. They have individual functions which interact with one another, and that's an important difference. Under the old system, you had a set list of gear which you had to obtain in order to be optimal. As things stand, you can reach a near-optimal state through different gear combinations because of how stats interact with one another in varying combinations.

No matter how many times you assert that the two systems would be functionally the same, it doesn't change the reality that they wouldn't be. At all.

Maybe balance isn't my top priority? Maybe it's interesting interactions in gearing choices?

This right here. This proves that you don't get it. I'm starting to doubt that you even played under the old gearing system, because everybody worked to complete a predefined BiS set back in the day. Where are the 'interesting interactions' there? If you truly understood how gearing currently works, you wouldn't be making the case for regression here.

That same purpose can be fulfilled solely by itemlevel of the armor piece. Since primary stat is derived from itemlevel and itemlevel alone, it doesn't serve a legitimate purpose that the itemlevel alone couldn't fulfill. If they gave itemlevel the 'power' boost and erase primary stats altogether, the game would function exactly the same. That's the point - it's not a good system. Power boosts are needed. You get it from itemlevel. Primary stats are just a needless and redundant placeholder.

This is just semantics. And it's incorrect. Both primary and secondary stats are determined by ilvl, because ilvl determines the budget. The budget is not the same thing as the stats themselves, which is why we use different terms to refer to each. Under this schema of reductionism for the sake of it, you could also argue that secondary stats are also a substitute for 'power' too.

Why not get rid of those? Just be done with it and have each piece just have a DPS value on it. There would be no interactions, though. Complexity in and of itself doesn't lead to interesting interactions between stats, but what you're proposing would reduce complexity in such a way that it would make stat interactions objectively less impactful, and interesting by extension. I really can't stress enough how much you obviously aren't grasping how this all works.

If you truly believe that, then you've no purpose left in this thread, since it's wrong and not conducive to discussion. Bye.

No dude. They're absolutely right. What isn't conducive to discussion is the fact that despite multiple people laying out the key concepts that you're missing, you have such a strong bias towards not being wrong about this that you don't even try to engage with the points that everybody here has made. You just say that they're wrong and restate your premise. That's not a discussion, my dude. That's just you insisting that you're right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.