Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

[Zan15]

That doesn't work for pretty obvious reasons.

Picture a guy running a local big grocery store as a non-profit. He's community-focused, and only takes a salary of $50,000, pushing profits into employee wages rather than his own pocket. He doesn't incorporate because he's not into that stuff.

His gross revenue over a year is gonna be over a million. I've seen estimates for starting a medium-size grocery store at around $250k for the first three months; you need to be making more than that to turn profit.

If you tax his income at the $1 million gross revenue, rather than his salary income, he's not gonna be able to keep the store afloat.

I definitely agree that loopholes need to be closed, and a good way to do so would be to do things like add income caps to qualify for exceptions on things like home ownership, and to greater control what counts as "charitable donations"; donating to your kids' university or to the local opera that you frequent shouldn't qualify as "charity", because you'll reap benefits yourself. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that taxing gross income rather than net is really workable; better to tweak how you can "hide" net income.

Not sure how non-profits are managed, regulated and run in Canada but in the US its a huge abused loophole in our tax code used for greed and avoidance of paying a lot of taxes.
But they got something right, Even Non-Profits pay employment taxes for Social Security and Medicare off gross wage if they have employees.

Its not the companies gross revenue that gets taxed for healthcare, its wages we were talking about not business revenue/profits/income.

Why would this change for Universal Healthcare?
Continue paying for healthcare through employment taxes, just expand the definition of what kind of income is subject to employment taxes. Expand how much employers pay vs employees. They should not be paying an equal share, companies in a universal system should be paying a lot more since they are the ones who are going to benefit/save the most money under this kind of system.



It does not change the fact that those employees and the company rely on govt services and in this scenario healthcare.
They are going to save hundreds of thousands-millions-billions on healthcare cost but then not be expected to pay into the countries healthcare taxes?

Many companies including non profit manage to make it work every year.

[anyaka21]

For me, it's my litmus test. Whereas, as an example, and in many ways can still be true now, abortion for a lot of America is their litmus test on who to vote for. I'd say this mainly as a conservative held ideal esp on the Christian right side of things.

Thus, as said, that litmus test in Universal Healthcare. If you want my vote, then that's the minimum entry point. If you don't support it, then I won't vote for you. For me, I think Healthcare needs to be a basic human right. Just that simple. People shouldn't live in fear of whether or not they have to ration their insulin because Pharma and insurance have jacked up the prices even higher. You shouldn't have to rely on healthcare thru your work because as has been shown during this last year how many millions have lost their healthcare because of business closures. That also said, in terms of jobs, it also can prevent people from going to other jobs or striking out on their own and opening a business or pursueing a dream because it would mean losing your healthcare.

That said, the most common excuse is, at least in the US, is that it's a socialist policy (and when you say socialist policy, they really mean communism), or the eventual endgame by anti-M4a people is to turn the US to communism. That said, in the same breath what is also said is that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Thus, my response is simple - If Universal healthcare is socialism, and therefore it shouldn't exist anywhere in the world. However, every developed country has it. And again, if socialsim has failed everywhere it has been tried, then by their own logic, Universal Healthcare must not be socialism.

[Cinnamilk]

Just did a section in my Japanese class on healthcare systems around the world. As the lone American, I got to describe the unique shittiness of the American system compared to like literally any other industrialized nation.

People who don't support universal healthcare are lizardmen.

[PACOX]

The only legitimate reason to not support universal healthcare is cost. And then the argument is what's more important, lives or money. If you value money more than lives than you perception of money is way off.

The problem is that that human lives are cheap. American society as a whole doesn't really value human lives are part ones own. So if a profit based insurance company runs healthcare in America then so be it if taxes are low...even if a universal system would probably cost you less in the long run. It's the fact that one's money is officially paying for the healthcare of another that pisses people off because we don't value other human lives and rather have that money sitting in our bank account. It's gross.

[Traveler Voltin]

how would you pay for it?
that is all i really want to know.

[Endus]

how would you pay for it?
that is all i really want to know.

The same way you pay for any government program. Taxes.

How is this even a question? You realize literally every single developed nation on the planet but the USA figured this out, right?

[Krakan]

The same way you pay for any government program. Taxes.

How is this even a question? You realize literally every single developed nation on the planet but the USA figured this out, right?

I don't know about all of them but the us system is rather bizarre. I don't see the benefit of having private insurance existing in it's current form rather then funding it solely through the government.

[tromage2]

No i do not support it.

Because alot of people dont take care of their body and are living a unhealthy lifestyle.
Others do extreem sports or stupid things what increase the risk of injury alot.
So i am not willing to pay for people that make bad choices.

That said some people are very unlucky when it comes to their health so i could see a system that protects people that become sick and could not prevent it like cancer ect. But if a doctor can prove that a condition is because of a choice then it is up to them to handle their own situation.

[Felya]

No i do not support it.

Because alot of people dont take care of their body and a living a unhealthy lifestyle.
Others do extreem sports or stupid things what increase the risk of injury alot.
So i am not willing to pay for people that make bad choices.

Uhm... why do I have to pay for the same people to subsidize employer coverage? Why are you acting like you are not paying for that already, with as much as US spends on healthcare? If we spend more than other countries, while demanding that care be denied, don’t you think our system is a failure and your argument is just ego?

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That said some people are very unlucky when it comes to their health so i could see a system that protects people that become sick and could not prevent it like cancer ect. But if a doctor can prove that a condition is because of a choice then it is up to them to handle their own situation.

I have never seen someone argue for a form of “pre existing conditions”...

Hey, have you considered questioning the life styles of people who make a fortune on your healthcare? Maybe if they took fewer risks and ate more conservatively, they wouldn’t need to charge us so much for our care? Maybe if they curb their life styles, we could afford to provide care for everyone?

[Vash The Stampede]

No i do not support it.

Because alot of people dont take care of their body and are living a unhealthy lifestyle.
Others do extreem sports or stupid things what increase the risk of injury alot.
So i am not willing to pay for people that make bad choices.

Like it or not you're paying for someone else's unhealthy habits. Japan practically make it illegal to be overweight because they pay for their citizens healthcare. So if anyone is caught being overweight then the company gets fined. It's required that governments measure the waistlines of citizens often for this reason. The punishment is that they pay for a dietitian who will make sure you eat healthy. I would argue that we Americans should make certain fruit and vegetables free to eat since that promotes a healthier life style and won't let people go hungry. For the cheapo's out there, they can eat nothing but salads to save money instead of ramen noodles. For the homeless they can also eat fruit or raw vegetables because it's also free. It's cheaper to eat unhealthy than to eat healthy, which is also a large part of the problem. Nobody goes hungry, healthcare gets cheaper, and tromage2 doesn't complain about paying for others unhealthy lifestyle.

That said some people are very unlucky when it comes to their health so i could see a system that protects people that become sick and could not prevent it like cancer ect. But if a doctor can prove that a condition is because of a choice then it is up to them to handle their own situation.

Having a Doctor prove that their condition is because of their own actions will likely be spending more money to determine if we should spend more money, which kinda defeats the purpose. It's cheaper to give someone diabetic drugs than to run blood tests and stool samples to see if they're eating the wrong foods. Imagine getting into a car accident and then doing an investigation of who's at fault to pay for medical expenses? Both people in car accidents blame each other and there isn't always footage to determine who is or isn't at fault. It's also morally wrong to judge people to see if they're worthy of paying to save their lives.

[Lochton]

Yes, I support Universal Healthcare.

Reasons? Don't need any more than to say that everyone deserves covering healthcare.

[Traveler Voltin]

The same way you pay for any government program. Taxes.

How is this even a question? You realize literally every single developed nation on the planet but the USA figured this out, right?

how to appeal that to people who cant afford to have their taxes raised?

[Antiganon]

how to appeal that to people who cant afford to have their taxes raised?

The people who can't afford their taxes raised will get a pay INCREASE by way of not paying insurance premiums, while the wealthy near the vast majority of any tax increase.

[Zan15]

how to appeal that to people who cant afford to have their taxes raised?

The people who can't afford their taxes raised will get a pay INCREASE by way of not paying insurance premiums, while the wealthy near the vast majority of any tax increase.

not to mention most plans proposed have zero out of pocket cost.

So you would save all those insurance premiums AND when you do need medical care, all that out of pocket cost which can be thousands or even tens of thousands.

Even if you converted to Medicare for all, your out of pocket cost would still be substantially less.

[Endus]

how to appeal that to people who cant afford to have their taxes raised?

Do you not understand how tax brackets work, or something? Over and above the not-having-to-pay-out-of-pocket angle from above users.

[Zan15]

how would you pay for it?
that is all i really want to know.

we already do, do you want the numbers?

Here google the following.

total Medicare spending 2019
total Medicaid spending 2019
total private insurance/healthcare/premium spending 2019
total healthcare out of pocket cost US 2019
total VA cost 2019
total CHIP cost 2019
total US bad debt write offs for medical care 2019
total ACA cost 2019



just to name a few. Tell me how many trillions you come up with.


Or how about the easy one.
Cost per capita US healthcare 2019 vs rest of the world.

Then you can see how much more we already spend vs the rest of the civilized world to not cover everyone and to cover the rest with shit coverage.

[Felya]

how to appeal that to people who cant afford to have their taxes raised?

I would explain how tax brackets work...

[Traveler Voltin]

The people who can't afford their taxes raised will get a pay INCREASE by way of not paying insurance premiums, while the wealthy near the vast majority of any tax increase.

i wasnt specific enough so this is my bad.
are you talking about people who barely afford taxes and health care or people that can barely afford taxes and have no health care?

[Felya]

i wasnt specific enough so this is my bad.
are you talking about people who barely afford taxes and health care or people that can barely afford taxes and have no health care?

What are you talking about, when saying ‘barely afford taxes’? Saying as much, implies that you don’t actually know how taxes work.

[Traveler Voltin]

What are you talking about, when saying ‘barely afford taxes’? Saying as much, implies that you don’t actually know how taxes work.

there is taxes that getting taken out of your pay check to pay for government programs. (this may affect peoples way of living.)
if you own property you also have to play taxes on that but that is separate.

then there is the yearly filing of taxes that you could possibly pay money on, break even, or get money back.

i am probably wording things wrong still so things might be being missed. give me a minute to think of how to word it correctly.