Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

[Edge-]

there is taxes that getting taken out of your pay check to pay for government programs. (this may affect peoples way of living.)
if you own property you also have to play taxes on that but that is separate.

The federal government does not collect property taxes. That's a state-level tax only, and some states do not have one.

Also, if you're struggling to pay your taxes, I doubt you actually own property. You're more likely to rent, so you're not paying the state tax on property.

[Felya]

there is taxes that getting taken out of your pay check to pay for government programs. (this may affect peoples way of living.)

Well, no... what impacts their lives is how much they get paid for work. Taxes work through brackets, where the less you make, the lower percentage of taxes you pay. If your job doesn’t pay you enough to live, the problem isn’t taxes.

if you own property you also have to play taxes on that but that is separate.

You also have to pay taxes on a PS5... I don’t think being able to afford a PS5 or property, hinges on the tax.

then there is the yearly filing of taxes that you could possibly pay money on, break even, or get money back.

But, the fact that you get money back, kind of shows that it’s on a scale... how does that mean you can’t afford taxes?

[Witchblade77]

I have such mixed feelings on it.

do I want everyone to be able to get healthcare treatments they need? not just get stabilized in the emergency room, genuine healthcare with preventative measures, that reduce the need to go to emergency room in a first place. yes, please.

do I think its possible with private insurance companies being set up the way that they are right now? 100% not. do I know how to fix it? no bloody clue

I keep thinking about how much cheaper veterinary services are, despite them more often then not having the same level or better of the professionalism and equipment. I mean... one of my dogs had to have an emergency surgery and then stay for a few days in a hospital for recovery. it was a major surgery and a delicate one at that. it was not cheap, per se, but it was about 10 times cheaper then similar situation when it was my SO that had to have a surgery and hospital stay for recovery. why the disparity? (and as I said, from personal experience at least these animal hospitals are as well equipped as the human ones. sometimes it almost feels like they are better equipped TBH) how do we fix this disparity? what is causing it? is it just privatized insurance companies? cause there are multiple insurance plans you can buy for your pets as well. because that disparity HAS to be fixed. one of the reason we do not have universal healthcare is because with current prices it would be prohibitive as far as costs go. I mean... we know how expensive medicare is to run.

so while I absolutely do want everyone, absolutely EVERYONE to be able to get medical care they need. I do not know how to accomplish it. (before other countries get brought up - I've heard enough horror stories about NHS, even from people who were generally grateful to have it but still got misdiagnosed, ignored, what have you while in its care - to know that its far from perfect. to the point where people who can afford it, end up buying private insurance anyways - and we end up back at the start where not everyone gets to experience proper medical care after all)

edited to add, on property taxes from someone who actualy pays them. for me at least property tax + mortgage is STILL cheaper then rental (of smaller space) in the same area...
you can also set up an escrow with your mortgage company so that they pay taxes for you, and split the payments into smaller, monthly chunks added to your regular mortgage payment, making it easier to manage. we personaly opted out of that, but it IS an option.

[Antiganon]

there is taxes that getting taken out of your pay check to pay for government programs. (this may affect peoples way of living.)
if you own property you also have to play taxes on that but that is separate.

then there is the yearly filing of taxes that you could possibly pay money on, break even, or get money back.

i am probably wording things wrong still so things might be being missed. give me a minute to think of how to word it correctly.

The taxes you file annually ARE the taxes that come out of your paycheck. The filing is sending in paperwork that says "this is how much I made, this is how much I already paid, these are all the tax breaks I'm eligible for".

The "goal" is for the return to be zero - break even between paycheck withholding and tax owed. I personally like to withhold far more than I expect to owe, in case I get a new job mid year making more money, or another unexpected windfall. This also all but guarantees me a large return when I file my taxes every year.

If you find you owe money when you file taxes, it means you underpaid for the rest of the year, not that the government is taking more money from you because reasons.

This is super basic shit. Literally high school accounting.

[Zan15]

The federal government does not collect property taxes. That's a state-level tax only, and some states do not have one.

Also, if you're struggling to pay your taxes, I doubt you actually own property. You're more likely to rent, so you're not paying the state tax on property.

Well i mean in a round about way you are paying the property tax as part of your "all in" rent payment.

Also if you own property and can't afford the taxes you should probably sell before you lose it all and really end up screwed.

[Endus]

The taxes you file annually ARE the taxes that come out of your paycheck. The filing is sending in paperwork that says "this is how much I made, this is how much I already paid, these are all the tax breaks I'm eligible for".

The "goal" is for the return to be zero - break even between paycheck withholding and tax owed. I personally like to withhold far more than I expect to owe, in case I get a new job mid year making more money, or another unexpected windfall. This also all but guarantees me a large return when I file my taxes every year.

If you find you owe money when you file taxes, it means you underpaid for the rest of the year, not that the government is taking more money from you because reasons.

This is super basic shit. Literally high school accounting.

Like, I've literally never had to send a check in to the government. Between tuition offsets and that I pay the full rates regardless of those offsets, I've managed to pay in more than I owe every year, so I get a tax refund when I file.

How do people not know this? I was aware of this stuff when I was 16 and filing because I was working.

[Antiganon]

Like, I've literally never had to send a check in to the government. Between tuition offsets and that I pay the full rates regardless of those offsets, I've managed to pay in more than I owe every year, so I get a tax refund when I file.

How do people not know this? I was aware of this stuff when I was 16 and filing because I was working.

The only taxes I pay out of pocket are sales tax and the property tax on my car. Income tax is withheld. Property tax is built into my mortgage payment.

I don't understand where people are getting the idea that they are going to somehow get a massive tax bill, unless they are intentionally withholding as little income tax as possible.

[Zan15]

I keep thinking about how much cheaper veterinary services are, despite them more often then not having the same level or better of the professionalism and equipment. I mean... one of my dogs had to have an emergency surgery and then stay for a few days in a hospital for recovery. it was a major surgery and a delicate one at that. it was not cheap, per se, but it was about 10 times cheaper then similar situation when it was my SO that had to have a surgery and hospital stay for recovery. why the disparity? (and as I said, from personal experience at least these animal hospitals are as well equipped as the human ones. sometimes it almost feels like they are better equipped TBH) how do we fix this disparity? what is causing it? is it just privatized insurance companies? cause there are multiple insurance plans you can buy for your pets as well. because that disparity HAS to be fixed. one of the reason we do not have universal healthcare is because with current prices it would be prohibitive as far as costs go. I mean... we know how expensive medicare is to run.

Vets do not have the level of legal requirements an ER or Hospital has, Not even close.
They also do not have to have the level of equipment, staff and expenses a hospital has for 24/7/365 service.

Just as an example you think a Vet has to have a fully staffed Burn unit or Trauma unit that may or may not even see 1 patient all week but still cost a shit ton of money to staff?

How do you think they pay for that? Right pro rate it across all Patients. That million dollar MRI machine, yup...spread out the cost.

Cost to heat the hospital 24/7/365......yup.

etc etc.

so while I absolutely do want everyone, absolutely EVERYONE to be able to get medical care they need. I do not know how to accomplish it. (before other countries get brought up - I've heard enough horror stories about NHS, even from people who were generally grateful to have it but still got misdiagnosed, ignored, what have you while in its care - to know that its far from perfect. to the point where people who can afford it, end up buying private insurance anyways - and we end up back at the start where not everyone gets to experience proper medical care after all)

The Horror stories on the NHS and other systems are the rare outliers that get eyeballs to read the media its posted/printed on. For every one NHS horror story you have tens of thousands if not millions of positive stories.

edited to add, on property taxes from someone who actualy pays them. for me at least property tax + mortgage is STILL cheaper then rental (of smaller space) in the same area...
you can also set up an escrow with your mortgage company so that they pay taxes for you, and split the payments into smaller, monthly chunks added to your regular mortgage payment, making it easier to manage. we personaly opted out of that, but it IS an option.

God i wish i lived by you. My property tax on my property i used to own (ex property now) is 5800 dollars for 1100 sqft house in meh condition with .43 acers.
The property was valued at 208k and this years assessment is 146,020. that was 2017, its due this year for its assessment and will prob climb over the 6k mark.
All in mortgage + property tax + insurance = 1500 a month.
For 1500 dollars a month around here i could have +50% the size apartment with amenities that far exceed what the house could provide. Not to mention no maintence cost, no labor on property, etc etc.
It would cost me about 1000-1100 for something that matches the house. Not to mention the savings on the insurance since apt insurance is 90% cheaper cause of what you don't have to cover on the property.

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The only taxes I pay out of pocket are sales tax and the property tax on my car. Income tax is withheld. Property tax is built into my mortgage payment.

I don't understand where people are getting the idea that they are going to somehow get a massive tax bill, unless they are intentionally withholding as little income tax as possible.

well you should be withholding so that the govt is holding on to as little of your money as possible since you get ZERO interest on that money.
You could take that money and invest it so many different ways that are better than the govt getting to use your money for 12 months for free.

Edit: sorry i think you just said that in another post......

You also left out Gas tax and a few other you probably pay

[Endus]

The Horror stories on the NHS and other systems are the rare outliers that get eyeballs to read the media its posted/printed on. For every one NHS horror story you have tens of thousands if not millions of positive stories.

Not to mention, people like to overlook the "I didn't die, but I lost my house and my entire family is living out of the back seat of a hatchback because of the bills" stories in the USA, or the "they gave me some aspirin and told me I needed heart surgery, but they wouldn't do the surgery unless I could come up with $80,000 cash I don't have. And they charged me $300 for the aspirin" stories, or the "I avoided going to the hospital for an infection because I can't afford care, and now they're going to cut my leg off to try and save my life when this all could've been solved with $30 worth of antibiotics a month ago" stories.

As if those aren't hugely damning of the American healthcare system.

The big difference is that horror stories in a universal care system occur when the system breaks down or something slips through the cracks. The American horror stories are the system working as intended.

[Zan15]

Not to mention, people like to overlook the "I didn't die, but I lost my house and my entire family is living out of the back seat of a hatchback because of the bills" stories in the USA, or the "they gave me some aspirin and told me I needed heart surgery, but they wouldn't do the surgery unless I could come up with $80,000 cash I don't have. And they charged me $300 for the aspirin" stories, or the "I avoided going to the hospital for an infection because I can't afford care, and now they're going to cut my leg off to try and save my life when this all could've been solved with $30 worth of antibiotics a month ago" stories.

[/i].

Silly Endus those things don't count towards comparing things like wait times with Canada's health system!!! Or overall health outcome measurements!
You can't drive the average down, if you are not included in the average!!!

The big difference is that horror stories in a universal care system occur when the system breaks down or something slips through the cracks. The American horror stories are the system working as intended.

Well the horror stories in the US are basically in two buckets. Economic and Ooopsy.

Economic is self explanatory.

Ooopsy is things like having no coverage because your plan sucks or you didn't know what you chose (catastrophic plan vs full plan--thanks trump).
Ooopsy what do you mean an experimental treatment is not covered because it will only help me live 3 more months.
Ooopsy having problems getting something paid because your doctor refuses to follow the appropriate procedures.
Ooopsy the private insurance company really just fucked up cause....well they are human ya know and a huge bureaucracy. Instead of just having to deal with one of them you have to deal with a dozen in your market and many more if you have a large population of big corporation employees.

etc etc.


All things like this are just more proof on how much money could be saved on a new system thus resulting taxes will be a net gain for most people at the end of the year.

[Witchblade77]

Vets do not have the level of legal requirements an ER or Hospital has, Not even close.
They also do not have to have the level of equipment, staff and expenses a hospital has for 24/7/365 service.

Just as an example you think a Vet has to have a fully staffed Burn unit or Trauma unit that may or may not even see 1 patient all week but still cost a shit ton of money to staff?

How do you think they pay for that? Right pro rate it across all Patients. That million dollar MRI machine, yup...spread out the cost.

Cost to heat the hospital 24/7/365......yup.

etc etc.




The Horror stories on the NHS and other systems are the rare outliers that get eyeballs to read the media its posted/printed on. For every one NHS horror story you have tens of thousands if not millions of positive stories.




God i wish i lived by you. My property tax on my property i used to own (ex property now) is 5800 dollars for 1100 sqft house in meh condition with .43 acers.
The property was valued at 208k and this years assessment is 146,020. that was 2017, its due this year for its assessment and will prob climb over the 6k mark.
All in mortgage + property tax + insurance = 1500 a month.
For 1500 dollars a month around here i could have +50% the size apartment with amenities that far exceed what the house could provide. Not to mention no maintence cost, no labor on property, etc etc.
It would cost me about 1000-1100 for something that matches the house. Not to mention the savings on the insurance since apt insurance is 90% cheaper cause of what you don't have to cover on the property.

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well you should be withholding so that the govt is holding on to as little of your money as possible since you get ZERO interest on that money.
You could take that money and invest it so many different ways that are better than the govt getting to use your money for 12 months for free.

Edit: sorry i think you just said that in another post......

You also left out Gas tax and a few other you probably pay

it depends on the vet. the hospital we took our dog to was 24/7 state of the art hospital in a middle of NYC and they certainly cost a lot more even for just check in, then our regular vet, but still nowhere near the cost of the human hospital (they do have specialist units and he had a full team working on him - this is the hospital in case you are curious https://www.amcny.org/). also veterinarians have to study longer.

the horror stories are not really THAT much of an outliers and I haven't seen them from the media, I have seen them from people. those people were still thankful to have had an option at all and its certainly better that what we have in US (heck, I have horror stories of my own here), but it could use sooo much improvement still. you know? if we are going to implement a new system shouldn't we see if we can make sure to learn from the mistakes of existing systems?

is your mortgage a 15 year or something? or is your insurance super high? our taxes ARE lower then yours but we also don't have municipal hookups (still cheaper cause maintenance on our well and ceptic is pretty darn low, as long as we are not abusing them) admittedly ours is also higher then quotes I looked up as far as renters insurance goes, but... those quotes may also not be super accurate as it doesn't take dogs into account. with our dogs, we'd have to pay extra both towards insurance AND security deposit (and potentially higher rent as well, I've noticed a lot of places charge extra per month if you have pets if they even allow them in a first place)

taking all the regular costs into account, it would cost us $200 more for a rental that is about the size of main floor only with no land attached (we have a fully furnished basement that we do use, mainly as gym/workshop combo). and then there is the fact that rent goes up every time you renew the lease, landlord may decide not to renew it so you have to start looking for the new place, and eventually you pay off your mortgage even if its 30 year term (which is what we have, though I have been throwing extra towards the principle whenever I have a chance which I guess does bring it up to be equal to rental costs, but will let us pay it off faster) and then you just have taxes, utilities and maintenance while rent costs are pretty much for the rest of your life. edited to add - forgot to take laundry costs into account. I've gotten so used to having acess to our own washer/drier that they are in a background of my subconscious at this point, but as one load of laundry just finished, I was reminded again about the weekly costs we used to have to do the laundry outside of the house as most rentals here do not come with washer/dryer acess, and if they do, there is a charge to use them. I'll need to replace my washer/dryer eventually, but in terms of cost effectiveness its still better then weekly laundromat (I'm talking about self service btw, we never use the drop off services, but rather carved out a few hours each week to spend at a laundromat - and yeah, you kinda had to supervise or at least set rigid alarms, cause people were NOT above taking your stuff out and if you are lucky, leaving it in a basket nearby to put their own stuff in).

that said... where my parents are, their mortgage IS higher then what they would have paid for rent for a similar place. but.... their location is a bit more central then ours, so there is that.


in any case, I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is no need to be stuck with a one time lumpsum tax payment, cause you can roll it into your mortgage payments.


but to go back to universal healthcare.

when comparing two evils, the lesser evils would certainly be stuck trying to fight the doctors to run the tests on you instead of dismissing you, because you actualy CAN go to the doctors to advocate for yourself with, vs not being able to afford to go at all. not going to argue with that.

but at the same time - I cannot see how we could implement universal health care in US AND keep our private insurance business going AND keep the insurance costs of the hospitals to protect from litigations as high as they are, AND allow far too much power to administrators vs actual doctors.

I want universal healthcare in concept. I'm not sure how to make it work here, in practice.

[Twdft]

how would you pay for it?
that is all i really want to know.

Germany figured that out in the fucking 1880s when we still had an emporer. Short version: if everyone pays into the system there is enough money to cover everyone. I'm sure the US has a couple bright heads to come up with a solution 137 years later.

[Antiganon]

well you should be withholding so that the govt is holding on to as little of your money as possible since you get ZERO interest on that money.
You could take that money and invest it so many different ways that are better than the govt getting to use your money for 12 months for free.

Edit: sorry i think you just said that in another post......

You also left out Gas tax and a few other you probably pay

The goal for many or most should be to withhold the exact amount of tax owed, yes. I know myself and I know that I wouldn't properly save or invest the extra few tens of dollars in each paycheck, but the big return every year generally goes to paying off long term debt or making a substantial extra mortgage payment.

I didn't leave out the gas tax and other excise taxes, I'm lumping them in with sales tax - tax on purchases paid at point of sale.

[Kraenen]

Pretty much in support of it! There are many reasons but one interesting one is that from a conservative perspective, I'd expect it reduces risk outcomes and enhances social trust. Presumably the variance in life outcomes due to either environmental or third-party effects would lower, and the probability that someone you interact with is healthy would increase. There are of course things that should be de-prioritized if no taken off the table, like preventable diseases due to poor personal decisions. I think there's room for personal responsibility while getting the more efficient system and the couple benefits above.

[Zan15]

it depends on the vet. the hospital we took our dog to was 24/7 state of the art hospital in a middle of NYC and they certainly cost a lot more even for just check in, then our regular vet, but still nowhere near the cost of the human hospital (they do have specialist units and he had a full team working on him - this is the hospital in case you are curious https://www.amcny.org/). also veterinarians have to study longer.

.

I'll have to trust you but my experience with 4 dogs with cancer and surgery on 3 of them vs what my family has spend on healthcare its not even close

the horror stories are not really THAT much of an outliers and I haven't seen them from the media, I have seen them from people. those people were still thankful to have had an option at all and its certainly better that what we have in US (heck, I have horror stories of my own here), but it could use sooo much improvement still. you know? if we are going to implement a new system shouldn't we see if we can make sure to learn from the mistakes of existing systems?.

Yah they are. Do you know how many claims are processed a year? Billions.
Just let that number sink in while you think about the # of horror stories you heard about and are reported on.

Thing is we don't need to implement a new system. there are a half dozen already in place around the world that would work almost perfect here.

is your mortgage a 15 year or something? or is your insurance super high? our taxes ARE lower then yours but we also don't have municipal hookups (still cheaper cause maintenance on our well and ceptic is pretty darn low, as long as we are not abusing them) admittedly ours is also higher then quotes I looked up as far as renters insurance goes, but... those quotes may also not be super accurate as it doesn't take dogs into account. with our dogs, we'd have to pay extra both towards insurance AND security deposit (and potentially higher rent as well, I've noticed a lot of places charge extra per month if you have pets if they even allow them in a first place)

taking all the regular costs into account, it would cost us $200 more for a rental that is about the size of main floor only with no land attached (we have a fully furnished basement that we do use, mainly as gym/workshop combo). and then there is the fact that rent goes up every time you renew the lease, landlord may decide not to renew it so you have to start looking for the new place, and eventually you pay off your mortgage even if its 30 year term (which is what we have, though I have been throwing extra towards the principle whenever I have a chance which I guess does bring it up to be equal to rental costs, but will let us pay it off faster) and then you just have taxes, utilities and maintenance while rent costs are pretty much for the rest of your life. edited to add - forgot to take laundry costs into account. I've gotten so used to having acess to our own washer/drier that they are in a background of my subconscious at this point, but as one load of laundry just finished, I was reminded again about the weekly costs we used to have to do the laundry outside of the house as most rentals here do not come with washer/dryer acess, and if they do, there is a charge to use them. I'll need to replace my washer/dryer eventually, but in terms of cost effectiveness its still better then weekly laundromat.

that said... where my parents are, their mortgage IS higher then what they would have paid for rent for a similar place. but.... their location is a bit more central then ours, so there is that.

in any case, I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is no need to be stuck with a one time lumpsum tax payment, cause you can roll it into your mortgage payments.

.

Nope it was 30 year fixed. Insurance is higher than national rate but not abnormal like our property taxes.
Ceptic is only low cost till you have to replace it Been there done that.
Of course like you showed, it all depends on where you live and your particulars.

but to go back to universal healthcare.

when comparing two evils, the lesser evils would certainly be stuck trying to fight the doctors to run the tests on you instead of dismissing you, because you actualy CAN go to the doctors to advocate for yourself with, vs not being able to afford to go at all. not going to argue with that.

but at the same time - I cannot see how we could implement universal health care in US AND keep our private insurance business going AND keep the insurance costs of the hospitals to protect from litigations as high as they are, AND allow far too much power to administrators vs actual doctors.

I want universal healthcare in concept. I'm not sure how to make it work here, in practice.

Basically Canadian healthcare system. Read up on how it actually works. The regulations in place. The fixed cost regulations. Most of the power is given to the medical profession and decisions made by hospital staff, not much administrative problems at all.

Also litigation in this country is vastly overexaggerated in the medical/hospital industry. Another place where horror stories paint a picture that is not anywhere near realistic.

Private insurance needs to go away realistically. How we get there by band aid rip approach or slow removal is up for debate.

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I didn't leave out the gas tax and other excise taxes, I'm lumping them in with sales tax - tax on purchases paid at point of sale.

cheater!!!!

[Witchblade77]

I'll have to trust you but my experience with 4 dogs with cancer and surgery on 3 of them vs what my family has spend on healthcare its not even close




Yah they are. Do you know how many claims are processed a year? Billions.
Just let that number sink in while you think about the # of horror stories you heard about and are reported on.

Thing is we don't need to implement a new system. there are a half dozen already in place around the world that would work almost perfect here.





Nope it was 30 year fixed. Insurance is higher than national rate but not abnormal like our property taxes.
Ceptic is only low cost till you have to replace it Been there done that.
Of course like you showed, it all depends on where you live and your particulars.






Basically Canadian healthcare system. Read up on how it actually works. The regulations in place. The fixed cost regulations. Most of the power is given to the medical profession and decisions made by hospital staff, not much administrative problems at all.

Also litigation in this country is vastly overexaggerated in the medical/hospital industry. Another place where horror stories paint a picture that is not anywhere near realistic.

Private insurance needs to go away realistically. How we get there by band aid rip approach or slow removal is up for debate.

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cheater!!!!

hmm... we had to take 2 dogs in for a surgery, one for cancer treatments (weekly visits for months, unfortunately it wasn't enough - fuck bone cancer, seriously) and one to cardiologist couple of times. in each case, it was far cheaper then what human equivalent would cost. I mean just looking at the cost of their annual visit that comes with bloodwork at a minimum and certainly vaccine boosters (though rabies is every 3 years, we get them other boosters relevant to our area that are yearly), vs MY annual visit (where bloodwork is a separate visit AND a charge).... I do not want to say that costs for pets are too low. they are not. I want to say that costs for humans are too high. so yeah, something is going to have to be done about service costs (as well as WHY they are as high as they are here) before we even begin to think about implementing universal care that is covered by taxes.

Canadian healthcare from what I know of it - reminds me of my dental plan. in theory - I have one and its 100% covered. in practice, I have to wait at least a month, sometimes more between each visit and they do NOT do multiple things per visit, we are talking: I come in, they do the xray and then i have to wait to come back for cleaning and then i have to wait to come back for any cavities at which point those cavities have gotten worse and now I need to redo the xray and at this point I just stopped using our dental and started saving up to pay out of pocket to a dentist that doesn't make me wait for months to get a single tooth fixed - while it keeps getting worse and worse. of course then i ended up paying that off to carecredit for years afterwards, but at least i got a cavity fixed before it turned into an unavoidable root canal - by that point they DO see me quicker cause its an emergency now, but the point is all that waiting to be seen is why it got that bad in a first place)

but, you say, a lot of people in US don't even have that option of covered dental care and cannot afford to pay out of pocket? you are correct. and that is bad. but having care as described above is not much of an improvement.


oh yeah, housing. its definitely on per area basis. and ceptic replacement costs ARE pretty high (I believe its between 20 and 40k? depending on a size and placement). which is why we do our damndest to treat our ceptic as well as possible so that all we need is that once every 4 years visit to check on it and drain it.


edited to add, I guess i should actualy share the costs of surgery we paid for our dog, vs surgery for SO. with hospital stay.

our pupper had to have obstruction dealt with and because unfortunately a closer emergency pet hospital didn't take it as seriously as they should have and we trusted their judgement (something that i've also experienced happening in human hospitals, recently too - resulted in a repeat visit the next day, but I digress) - top of his intestine where it attaches to the stomach, started to go septic by the time we got him to Manhattan hospital. they had to remove part of his intestine, reattach it, and monitor him for blood poisoning among other things. he lived about 6 years after that surgery, completely normal life, no special diet or anything. it was $8,000 out of pocket (care credit helped a LOT with that, made it easier to pay off)

So had to have a strangulated hernia fixed - same amount of days staying at the hospital for observation, though he didn't go septic, so at least that wasn't part of the issue. had to fight with the doctor to even convince them that NO its not his liver, just take a god damn xray already. luckily by then we had an insurance and the only out of pocket cost we had was initial emergency room co-pay with smaller co-pay for diagnostics. but our insurance still sends us itemized bills that show how much is covered. it was $76,000. so yeah, I'm fully aware of the USA's nightmare scenarios of one emergency ruining an entire family. few years earlier and it would have been us living under the weight of that debt, instead of buying a house few years later.

but I guess and call me an idealist - I'd like for us to try for something that helps both people in emergencies AND people who are trying to avoid said emergencies in a timely matter.... meaning not having to wait 20 weeks to see a specialist.

[Zan15]

Canadian healthcare from what I know of it - reminds me of my dental plan. in theory - I have one and its 100% covered. in practice, I have to wait at least a month, sometimes more between each visit and they do NOT do multiple things per visit, we are talking: I come in, they do the xray and then i have to wait to come back for cleaning and then i have to wait to come back for any cavities at which point those cavities have gotten worse and now I need to redo the xray and at this point I just stopped using our dental and started saving up to pay out of pocket to a dentist that doesn't make me wait for months to get a single tooth fixed - while it keeps getting worse and worse. of course then i ended up paying that off to carecredit for years afterwards, but at least i got a cavity fixed before it turned into an unavoidable root canal - by that point they DO see me quicker cause its an emergency now, but the point is all that waiting to be seen is why it got that bad in a first place)

but, you say, a lot of people in US don't even have that option of covered dental care and cannot afford to pay out of pocket? you are correct. and that is bad. but having care as described above is not much of an improvement.


.

See that is why you need to read up on how the actual program works.

Wait times are longer for people who can wait. Need care faster you are put farther up the line. Triage care basically.

Its really no different then taking my dad to the eye specialist in the US. 3 month wait. I could get him in instantly if his eyeball was falling out or bleeding, but he didn't need to jump the line. Same thing in Canada. You need an MRI cause your arm hurts you wait a little. You need an MRI cause blood is coming out your ears, you don't wait. (yes very exaggerate and really not sure an MRI would be the first thing they do..but you get the point)


Also if its a 1 week wait in the US without factoring in the 60 million people who's wait time = infinity, what would be the actual wait time for the entire population of people in need? In Canada you get the actual wait time because no one goes without when they need it.

that 1 week wait time can have its average easily 10x itself without even exaggerating the effect, for the people who have to wait years to be able to afford the service or get a job with insurance that is if they ever can.



This is one of the democrats failing points.
They never bothered to really do an education program/campaign and a fact buster on universal healthcare, Canadian system, Medicare for all......

[Sole-Warrior]

Yes, absolutely I do. I strongly support Universal Catastrophic health insurance on the state level. I'm currently pushing for my state to bring about this plan. No one in my state deserves to go bankrupt because they got cancer or some other serious illness that costs 100k

[Witchblade77]

See that is why you need to read up on how the actual program works.

Wait times are longer for people who can wait. Need care faster you are put farther up the line. Triage care basically.

Its really no different then taking my dad to the eye specialist in the US. 3 month wait. I could get him in instantly if his eyeball was falling out or bleeding, but he didn't need to jump the line. Same thing in Canada. You need an MRI cause your arm hurts you wait a little. You need an MRI cause blood is coming out your ears, you don't wait. (yes very exaggerate and really not sure an MRI would be the first thing they do..but you get the point)


Also if its a 1 week wait in the US without factoring in the 60 million people who's wait time = infinity, what would be the actual wait time for the entire population of people in need? In Canada you get the actual wait time because no one goes without when they need it.

that 1 week wait time can have its average easily 10x itself without even exaggerating the effect, for the people who have to wait years to be able to afford the service or get a job with insurance that is if they ever can.



This is one of the democrats failing points.
They never bothered to really do an education program/campaign and a fact buster on universal healthcare, Canadian system, Medicare for all......

I have read up. and its kinda the point I'm making. "can afford to wait" is a relative thing. is 20 week wait time a good thing? a LOT can happen in 20 weeks, including condition worsening and becoming an emergency.

in my example of a wait for a dentist. when they made me wait, that cavity was just a cavity. so in their estimation, I could afford to wait. by the time my wait was over, that cavity deepened enough to become a root canal requiring cavity. much more involved AND expensive procedure.

and yes, not being able to go at all is objectively worse. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the idea that existing systems are nearly perfect and that they would work GREAT here. I'm honestly not sure.

P.S. currently, my specialist wait time where I live at least - is 2-4 weeks after general practitioner referral (unless you get lucky and there is an earlier cancelation). it used to be less, but due to all the extra precautions thanks to covid, they are spacing out their visits more. is this wait time less because fewer people can afford to go in a first place? possibly. should we account for that when setting up new systems so that wait times do not drastically increase for everyone? absolutely. how do we do this? I have no bloody clue. i wish i did. oh and my dental plan is different from my regular insurance, hence the difference.

[Elegiac]

I have read up. and its kinda the point I'm making. "can afford to wait" is a relative thing. is 20 week wait time a good thing? a LOT can happen in 20 weeks, including condition worsening and becoming an emergency.

You are aware that healthcare providers will already factor this in when making triage assessments, right?