Arthas, Shadowlands and Blizzard

[Zmagoslav]

Even if we ignore the inconsistency of Blizzard's writing/communication and how they tend to go back on their word the answer is still "no".

What they have said is "we won't be seeing much of him during the expansion".
Thinking that means he has nothing to do with shadowlands would be just straight up stupid... considering how we knew his blade had something to do with the maw ever since the 1st covenant video containing uther confirmed it.

[loras]

Hey guys, something's been bothering me a little bit for some time and I decided to post about it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can recall, Blizzard specifically explained that we will not be seeing much of Arthas in Shadowlands, as they do not want to ruin such an iconic character. But now we know that he's only been just another pawn in the (actual) Jailer's grand master-plan.

So my question is: isn't that the exact opposite of what Blizzard officially stated?! Why do you think they did that? Could it be just the next hiccup? Or could it be an intentional lie, because they are actually planning something for Arthas?

What are your thoughts on this?

Seems like a misinterpretation on your part due to an overly literal understanding of their statement - though they could also indeed be misdirecting intentionally.

What i got from their statement is that he just won't be a main storyline focus, he's obviously there somewhere in the maw as per the Uther cinematic and perhaps we'll even get to see him a bit, but it's likely not to be of much consequence.

[Greengrim]

Seems like a misinterpretation on your part due to an overly literal understanding of their statement - though they could also indeed be misdirecting intentionally.

What i got from their statement is that he just won't be a main storyline focus, he's obviously there somewhere in the maw as per the Uther cinematic and perhaps we'll even get to see him a bit, but it's likely not to be of much consequence.

I copy/paste what I wrote to somebody else, and what actually buggs me the most:

Here, I found exactly what I was refering to. This is Ion Hazzikostas' standpoint from his May 2020 interview:

Arthas is obviously somewhere in the Shadowlands, but they want to be respectful with the character. We will learn more about him and his true nature, but we most likely won't be adventuring or interacting much with him.

So, they want to be respectful with the character, but then proceed with explaining to us that Arthas' Jailer was in fact the Phony Jailer and that Arthas was actually a puppet of the Jailer Jailer. How is that any respectful towards Arthas?

The problem is not about seeing or not seeing him or giving him a major/minor/norole in Shadowlands. It's about "wanting" to be respectful with the character (without doubt the most iconic character in the Wrcraft universe) and then basically placed a clown wig and red nose on him...

[cparle87]

keep in mind blizz also said that during wod, the whole thing about garrosh, thrall and their parents wouldn't be brought up only to be directly brought up in a cinematic. blizz isn't very consistent with their promises. especially current blizzard.

To my knowledge Durotan and Draka never found out that Thrall was their son. Grommash had no idea either until Gul'dan spilled the beans, and HE only knew cause he did research on Khadgar and the rest of us invaders.

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Wait. What? Didn't the Jailer specifically call Bolvar "a failure, just like your predecessors" right after we completed the first twisting coridor questline?

Yeah. The feeling I got was that the Jailer let the Legion use the sword and helm for their own ends because it also advanced his aims. Only for Ner'zhul and later Arthas to resist whatever minor control the Jailer could exert and do their own things instead of what he wanted. For Ner'zhul it was getting a new body for himself, for Arthas... I'm not really sure. Maybe it was the whole teensy bit of humanity keeping him from unleashing undead hell on Azeroth. Maybe that's what Jailer wanted. Arthas fails, but Sylvanas kills herself right in front of the helm. Jailer has seen Uther throwing Arthas into the Maw and gets the idea to do the same to get Sylvanas onto his side for a third try.

[Zmagoslav]

The problem is not about seeing or not seeing him or giving him a major/minor/norole in Shadowlands. It's about "wanting" to be respectful with the character (without doubt the most iconic character in the Wrcraft universe) and then basically placed a clown wig and red nose on him...

He has worn that wig and nose for a while before this happened.
His entire arc, in WC3, is about him being manipulated left and right, being no more than a puppet of Ner'zhul up to literally the last 10 seconds of the game, when he puts on the helmet.

After that his role in WoW doesn't necessarily show him in a better light. From what we've seen his achivements ended the moment he put on that helmet, erasing Nerzhul's conciousness and taking the reins.
He was somehow king to the most dangerous army in Azeroth, but his biggest achievement was bunkering within Icecrown (for a few years), raising more zombies and only sending a handful of them to pose any danger to the rest of the world.

[aceperson]

To my knowledge Durotan and Draka never found out that Thrall was their son. Grommash had no idea either until Gul'dan spilled the beans, and HE only knew cause he did research on Khadgar and the rest of us invaders.

doesn't change the fact the blizz said they wouldn't and they did.

[Myradin]

He has worn that wig and nose for a while before this happened.
His entire arc, in WC3, is about him being manipulated left and right, being no more than a puppet of Ner'zhul up to literally the last 10 seconds of the game, when he puts on the helmet.

After that his role in WoW doesn't necessarily show him in a better light. From what we've seen his achivements ended the moment he put on that helmet, erasing Nerzhul's conciousness and taking the reins.
He was somehow king to the most dangerous army in Azeroth, but his biggest achievement was bunkering within Icecrown (for a few years), raising more zombies and only sending a handful of them to pose any danger to the rest of the world.

If anything if they want to blame his silly Dr Claw routine in Wrath on jailor influence it'd probably be defending his WC3 protrayal. Arthas in Wrath pretty much makes no sense, and effectively retcons the end of WC3.

[cparle87]

doesn't change the fact the blizz said they wouldn't and they did.

Did Blizzard say they wouldn't find out or did they say that Thrall wouldn't tell them? There's a difference.

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If anything if they want to blame his silly Dr Claw routine in Wrath on jailor influence it'd probably be defending his WC3 protrayal. Arthas in Wrath pretty much makes no sense, and effectively retcons the end of WC3.

What do you claim it retcons?

[loras]

I copy/paste what I wrote to somebody else, and what actually buggs me the most:



The problem is not about seeing or not seeing him or giving him a major/minor/norole in Shadowlands. It's about "wanting" to be respectful with the character (without doubt the most iconic character in the Wrcraft universe) and then basically placed a clown wig and red nose on him...

Ah, like that.

Well wasn't that sort of servitude always implied?

I mean first he was led on a wild goose chase by demons, enslaved by frostmourne, serving the demons directly as a death knight, then serving the lich king, then merging with the lich king to continue his pre-existing agenda.

That doesn't sound very in-control-like to me, in fact he seems like he's always been a puppet.

Then came WotLK and the puppetry was only expanded upon by making it obvious both the lich king and the demons had been manipulated by and were quarrelling with the old gods (saronite infesting frostmourne's cavern, faceless encroaching on the scourge everywhere, Icecrown being made out of saronite, Yogg-Saron gathering an unscourgable army in Ulduar, etcetera).

So to me it seems like he was always a puppet, and as he was actively fighting demons and old gods the only question that was remaining was whose agenda he was serving.

After all: a non-puppeted Arthas would have had no reason to declare war on the living if he was truly and solely in control.
The jailer is then just a name given to the one whose agenda he was enforcing.

[huth]

The jailer is then just a name given to the one whose agenda he was enforcing.

No, that's the name of the one whose agenda he was supposed to enforce. The end of Bolvar's Torghast quests makes it clear that none of the various Lich Kings did.

[Houle]

No, that's the name of the one whose agenda he was supposed to enforce. The end of Bolvar's Torghast quests makes it clear that none of the various Lich Kings did.

true
ner'zhul was busy trying to fuck over kil'jaeden in every way he could think of
arthas was busy uniting an undead world under his command so the legion couldnt take azeroth
bolvar was merely just keeping the scourge in icecrown and not much more

thats why the jailer had to alter the plan and switch to sylvanas

[Razion]

They didn't just say Arthas wouldn't be involved in Shadowlands, they explained why. My thoughts on the matter are that The Jailer is the big bad of this expansion - he should be getting the spotlight, so I'd rather them build up the Jailer and all the other denizens of the Shadowlands. We have a new place with new faces, so I'd like to appreciate those instead.

[Soon-TM]

My guess is that they will try to draw some half assed parallel between Sylvanas being subdued and abused by Arthas on one hand, and Arthas being subdued and abused by the Jailor on the other. "See bois? Arthas wasn't that bad after all! Cya after redeeming Sylv!".

[Zentavius]

Ummm, how exactly?

The Runecarver was the one who gave up the designs for Helm of Domination and Frostmourne so that they can be crafted in the first place, looong before they reached Arthas.

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This has been the assumption, though I question how it happened the Jailer was able to show the runecarver the image of a Helm and Mourneblade that hadn't yet been made?

Is it not possible, he's trying to remake them for his new secret weapon?

Nothing in that memory cinematic dated it as the first creation of the Helm and Frostmourne, and the fact the Jailer knew their appearance to show them to the Runecarver makes no sense. Then you have the timing aspect. It would imply the Jailer had been freed and has been siphoning souls to the maw since before WC3, and likely also the Primus has been missing for even longer than that.

The original lore was that the Helm and Frostmourne were in the possession of the Burning Legion and given to Nerzhul as the first Lich King, so rather than a retcon, it could simply be that the Runecarver (suspected to be the Primus) created them long before and that's why the jailer comes a knockin'. He wants Manduin to be his version of the Lich King for his new world order, so needs a new helm and mourneblade.

[huth]

This has been the assumption, though I question how it happened the Jailer was able to show the runecarver the image of a Helm and Mourneblade that hadn't yet been made?

Is it not possible, he's trying to remake them for his new secret weapon?

Ever heard of blueprints? The Runecarver does the same thing for PCs with the appropriate crafting skills, hands them a memory containing the information on how to make the items, and the scene is about the Jailer forcibly taking the memory on how to make those items from the Runecarver.

Nothing in that memory cinematic dated it as the first creation of the Helm and Frostmourne, and the fact the Jailer knew their appearance to show them to the Runecarver makes no sense. Then you have the timing aspect. It would imply the Jailer had been freed and has been siphoning souls to the maw since before WC3, and likely also the Primus has been missing for even longer than that.

Only the part about the Primus. And for that, we have no idea how long the Primus has been missing. The soul thing is definitely a very recent event.

It's also shown that the Jailer can forge these weapons in weeks to months at most, so it wouldn't have to be long before the Lich King arrived on Azeroth.

[Greengrim]

Ever heard of blueprints? The Runecarver does the same thing for PCs with the appropriate crafting skills, hands them a memory containing the information on how to make the items, and the scene is about the Jailer forcibly taking the memory on how to make those items from the Runecarver.



Only the part about the Primus. And for that, we have no idea how long the Primus has been missing. The soul thing is definitely a very recent event.

It's also shown that the Jailer can forge these weapons in weeks to months at most, so it wouldn't have to be long before the Lich King arrived on Azeroth.

So, according to Zentavius, in that scene, the Jailer is forcing the Runecarver into giving up the blueprints of the helm and sword, not for the first time???????

[shadowmatrix]

This has been the assumption, though I question how it happened the Jailer was able to show the runecarver the image of a Helm and Mourneblade that hadn't yet been made?

The Jailer was stealing the Runecarver's memories so he could show him any of his designs even those still in the planning stages.

[Trumpcat]

There was a photo in the Internets somewhere of Christie Golden underlining on a big board "if you can use Arthas, use Arthas" as a story principle.

Arthas isn't becoming a new pawn, because he was already a pawn and we supposedly know that well. His pride made him a victim and his soul was messed up by Frostmourne just like Uther or Sylvanas. And just like Anduin's is about to be, unless... Something, something.

We also always knew the helm of Domination changed every bearer like it did with Nerzul, Arthas and Bolvar, all of which had already been altered in ways before. Bringing in the Jailer as the force that was ultimately behind the powers of the helm just gives more context of its origin.

It would be cheapening the story if it turned out that they were doing his bidding, but we have clearly been told they didn't, even if it heavily influences the characters.

So Arthas was tricked into getting his soul stolen by Frostmourne, messed up Uther and Sylvanas (and many others) then merged into the Lich King, was ultimately defeated and his messed up soul was thrown into the Maw by messed up Uther. It is only fitting that we should see some soul restoration or conclusion for both Arthas and Uther as they both became victims to the same ultimate powers albeit in different circumstances. No way SL will go without more Arthas.

[Zentavius]

Ever heard of blueprints? The Runecarver does the same thing for PCs with the appropriate crafting skills, hands them a memory containing the information on how to make the items, and the scene is about the Jailer forcibly taking the memory on how to make those items from the Runecarver.

Yeah but we have to find his memories that were stolen by the jailer, we return them to him. In the cinematic, the Jailer shows images to the runecarver of the helm and blade and calls them the instruments required for domination. He hasn't taken the memory of those yet as that's what he's stealing right then. Still maintain its strange he knows what the finished items would be, without having seen them already.

[huth]

Yeah but we have to find his memories that were stolen by the jailer, we return them to him. In the cinematic, the Jailer shows images to the runecarver of the helm and blade and calls them the instruments required for domination. He hasn't taken the memory of those yet as that's what he's stealing right then. Still maintain its strange he knows what the finished items would be, without having seen them already.

Er, yes, he has taken them at that point. Meaning he effectively has "seen" them already.