New major problem with current direction of development

[WowIsDead64]

I still don't understand what difficult story content this game has? I don't think I did a single quest in this game where I thought "damn, that was challenging"...

I guess the most difficult part would be when you have to go to the Maw for your story and even that is not hard. You just have to watch your back. Yes elites are running around because IT'S THE MAW. It is this dangerous place by design. But you are not supposed to fight those dangerous enemies. You need to figure out ways to bypass them. Basically whenever you need to go into the Maw for story reasons, it's a stealth mission.

I just hate that "by design" excuse. Don't design this way then. I.e. first they design it this way and then they refuse to change it due to "by design" argument, that causes dead loop.

[Wuusah]

I just hate that "by design" excuse. Don't design this way then. I.e. first they design it this way and then they refuse to change it due to "by design" argument, that causes dead loop.

I don't see the problem of having a zone being dangerous by design where you are not supposed to fight the dangerous enemies but instead sneak by. Can you please explain the problem of such a design?

[WowIsDead64]

If you have no fun in anything outside of that gated content you won't stay subbed either way.

For Blizz this is better. People who play anyway have something new to do in every week. People who only want to do the story quests either want to make them current, so they stay subbed, or come in a few month later, do everything in one sweep and cancel again.
So: Raiders etc stay subbed either way. And tbh most don't care about staggered story release.
Flying is another thing but there is no homogenous mass so i ignore that for now.
Casuals who only want to do the story will quit after a month anyway again as they did their story. If they quit at the start or after four month doesn't make a difference for blizz or for the player.

What makes a difference are the people who stay subbed to do the story but would not if it would all release in one batch at the start.

And to be completly honest: I don't think many people in the game ACTUALLY care about gated release of story content. (excluding flying)

For me gating is fun. In most cases as i don't get burned out in week 2 and have new stuff to do every week besides raiding and mythic+. the expansion feels more alive. Also i don't think wow should regard players who only sub for a month anyway for anything.

Players, who sub for story only, don't want to play this game in a first place. They'd better read books or watch TV. But I want. I just try to say, that many players resub later, exactly because they like that "end of xpack" moment, when everything is nerfed, accessible and players allowed to do everything just for fun. And if game would be like this now, they would be subbed now. I don't say, that whole game should be nerfed like this. May be there are that "Gun barrel at head's back" players, who don't play, if they have nothing to do, i.e. they can't find activities in game for themselves and play only if they're forced to. But some basic content should be available. And I just don't think, that it's productive to stay so stubborn and keep saying that "Maw is hard by design", if removing it from leveling and Covenant campaign would make many players resub or keep them subbed.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't see the problem of having a zone being dangerous by design where you are not supposed to fight the dangerous enemies but instead sneak by. Can you please explain the problem of such a design?

May be because it's RPG, not stealth action? And of course it would be just half of this problem, if I wouldn't be forced to fight them. Because it's almost impossible to "sneak", if they guard my quest items and route, I need to go through. I don't play Rogue, sorry. Rogue is special case, not common one. I call it "bait" design. Blizzard say you need to avoid elites or, let's say, PVP, but at the same time they do everything to force you into this situation. And overall I think, that such design implies "hard" content. And hard content should be optional.

[Wuusah]

But some basic content should be available. And I just don't think, that it's productive to stay so stubborn and keep saying that "Maw is hard by design", if removing it from leveling and Covenant campaign would make many players resub or keep them subbed.

You keep talking out of your ass saying people unsub and would resub if the Maw wasn't so hard. There is zero proof for that. You have zero proof that people unsub because of the 5 minutes of Maw gameplay they need to do per week. And you have zero proof that people would resub if the Maw was nerfed to the ground.

Also how is there not tons and tons of "basic content" available to everyone? Your problem with this game seems to be that this one zone with these handful of quests there are tougher than your usual worldquest where you just start blasting. When 99% of the game is easy and 1% of the game is still easy unless you mess it up and pull the elites, then the game is still easy. I don't understand how you can even think that the campaign is difficult. And I can absolutely not understand how you can think that the campaign is so difficult that people unsub because of it. That's just not happening.


edit:

May be because it's RPG, not stealth action? And of course it would be just half of this problem, if I wouldn't be forced to fight them. Because it's almost impossible to "sneak", if they guard my quest items and route, I need to go through. I don't play Rogue, sorry. Rogue is special case, not common one. I call it "bait" design. Blizzard say you need to avoid elites or, let's say, PVP, but at the same time they do everything to force you into this situation. And overall I think, that such design implies "hard" content. And hard content should be optional.

And an RPG must not have a difficult zone where you are supposed to be more stealthy? That's the thing, though. IT IS OPTIONAL TO FIGHT THEM. You can CC them, get the loot that need and then run away and reset them. I don't remember a single quest where you HAVE TO fight an elite without the quest being designed so that you either debuff the enemy making them weaker, buff yourself or have some extra NPCs helping you. I don't remember A SINGLE quest in this game where you need to fight an elite from 100% to 0% and struggle to survive during it.

[VinceVega]

Players, who sub for story only, don't want to play this game in a first place. They'd better read books or watch TV. But I want. I just try to say, that many players resub later, exactly because they like that "end of xpack" moment, when everything is nerfed, accessible and players allowed to do everything just for fun. And if game would be like this now, they would be subbed now. I don't say, that whole game should be nerfed like this. May be there are that "Gun barrel at head's back" players, who don't play, if they have nothing to do, i.e. they can't find activities in game for themselves and play only if they're forced to. But some basic content should be available. And I just don't think, that it's productive to stay so stubborn and keep saying that "Maw is hard by design", if removing it from leveling and Covenant campaign would make many players resub or keep them subbed.

- - - Updated - - -


May be because it's RPG, not stealth action? And of course it would be just half of this problem, if I wouldn't be forced to fight them. Because it's almost impossible to "sneak", if they guard my quest items and route, I need to go through. I don't play Rogue, sorry. Rogue is special case, not common one. I call it "bait" design. Blizzard say you need to avoid elites or, let's say, PVP, but at the same time they do everything to force you into this situation. And overall I think, that such design implies "hard" content. And hard content should be optional.

What is the problem with the maw? You go there a few short times over the course of the levleing experience.
After that you can completly ignore it if you want. The 15 souls are done in like 5 minutes.

[Subrias]

.

btw i did the raid this week for the first time and we smashed through 9/10 hc with an okayish guild grp, is it normal that hc is that easy? i would be bored too if this was my endgame content, or is mythic raiding the new norm for casuals these days?

If you did 9 of 10 heroic then your supposedly okish guild is better than about 70% of the player base. Good job.

[Lei]

I don't see the problem of having a zone being dangerous by design where you are not supposed to fight the dangerous enemies but instead sneak by. Can you please explain the problem of such a design?

The Maw is a special case of hell because of how group finder grouping works (or rather how it doesnt) and also how unpopular the Maw itself is. If I go there on Wednesday on my low-mid pop realm, the whole area is dead, no danger there, I run around like I own the place. If I go there on Friday, every mob is up and either you fight one by one them to get through, or you just run through and hope for them to evade and not kill you first.

[NineSpine]

I don't see the problem of having a zone being dangerous by design where you are not supposed to fight the dangerous enemies but instead sneak by. Can you please explain the problem of such a design?

1. In older versions of the game, which this notion of a dangerous outside world is supposed to harken back to, classes were significantly more varied, which resulted in the difficult content having rewarding, immersive gameplay that felt very class based. A paladin approached it through big defensive cooldowns, a warlock approached it through pet tanking and fears, a mage approached it through slows and poly. It doesn’t really feel like that anymore. It feels very samey for everyone because the classes have been homogenized so much.

2. The maw doesn’t reward stealth. It rewards avoiding killing things. Those aren’t the same thing. There is a big difference between avoiding enemies altogether and feeling compelled to run from every non-essential thing that sees you. The former can feel good, the latter feels weird.

[Niwes]

No matter what route they take, if you do the same content for a few weeks you will get bored of it. It's just how it is.

Now if you do it and not have anything to show for it, you'll be both bored and dissapointed.

but there are ppl out there that have no problems with playing a raid or some dungeons again. and again. but with another class (alt). also there are ppl that did not whine while MoP or Cata, just bc of they run out of PvE things once a week. they just played the whole game, by doing PvP, pet battles, alts, AH, collect stuff and doing achievements. these ppl never were bored. these ppl did not complain. but these ppl complain now, because they are bored of being forced to use their dedicated wow time to repeat the same shit week for week, while not having time for alts, pvp, etc.

what i wanna say: there is a HUGE difference in repeating content you like, i.e. playing a raid again and again with 2-3 alts, than being forced to do the same Maw, Thorgast, WQ, Covenant shit with same character week for week for week.

if i would not play this game for 15 years now and if i would not know enough of above ppls, i would say: maybe thats just me. but i doubt i am alone with this.

[Sluvs]

The silliest excuse, I've ever heard. Content inside location isn't content of this location. Do general Maw rules not apply to story quests? I.e. no ground/flying mounts, badly designed terrain, crowds of mobs and elite mobs everywhere, intentional exceeding challenge? No?

You are claiming that a long campaign, that has a couple of quests in the maw, is integral part of the maw. Which is not, you are claiming torghast, a place that it's entrance is in torghast and nothing more, is part of the maw. You are claiming that an introductory experience that last 40 minutes, in a heavily phased and altered part and of the maw, is part of the maw. Which is quite silly. Sure, technically you are right on all account, but it is pretty silly to say that they are part of your maw experience.

Your argument is the silly one. You are asking for a whole zone to be altered and be excluded from your gameplay, you want to pretend that that zone does not exist. That is silly.

- - - Updated - - -

this is only semi true - if you care about thorgast then no maw is not optional on your main due to account wide upgrades it gives.

I would argue that torghast is not part of the maw at all since, if you want to do it, you spend like, 30 seconds in the maw in order to get to it. I mean , sure it is part of the maw, but not really.

[Wuusah]

1. In older versions of the game, which this notion of a dangerous outside world is supposed to harken back to, classes were significantly more varied, which resulted in the difficult content having rewarding, immersive gameplay that felt very class based. A paladin approached it through big defensive cooldowns, a warlock approached it through pet tanking and fears, a mage approached it through slows and poly. It doesn’t really feel like that anymore. It feels very samey for everyone because the classes have been homogenized so much.

2. The maw doesn’t reward stealth. It rewards avoiding killing things. Those aren’t the same thing. There is a big difference between avoiding enemies altogether and feeling compelled to run from every non-essential thing that sees you. The former can feel good, the latter feels weird.

1. Classes don't feel homogenized at all, wtf are you talking about.

2. There is a big difference between avoiding enemies and avoiding enemies???

The Maw is a special case of hell because of how group finder grouping works (or rather how it doesnt) and also how unpopular the Maw itself is. If I go there on Wednesday on my low-mid pop realm, the whole area is dead, no danger there, I run around like I own the place. If I go there on Friday, every mob is up and either you fight one by one them to get through, or you just run through and hope for them to evade and not kill you first.

Aren't campaign quests putting you in a different layer, though?

[Aggressive]

I am not so sure, now, that the problem lies with the developers. I think the issues partly come from players as well. All the whining about certain classes being "OP" and "OMG. This class outperformed me on the meters". The classes being boring and needing a fresh look with new spells is partly to blame on the players as well. All the whining. Hence you get a class like warlocks with the same old agony, corruption, and unstable affliction.

For example....Last I checked in lore a warlock likes to evolve himself in his practice by learning new spells to cast. Well the warlocks of warcraft only evolve themselves in staying boring.

[Thelxi]

How can you "milk" a specific group of ppl when we all pay 15 Euros / dollars?Will it become clear if you tell us what that "very specific group" is?

I see pvpers, mythic+, raiders in several difficulties. I see ppl who don't engage in that and only play alts or world quests? People who do Torghast and those avoaiding it. People playing 6 hrs a day, other 2 hrs a week. And yeah...all pay the same.

And anybody still being shocked about timegates is really puzzling me. You may claim there were less of them in the past. But since WoD and Pathfinder it should be apparent that this isn't going away. I give you one x-pac to learn that. If you haven't understood it by the time BfA was out, there is no help. And for SL it was announced early that we would again have pathfinder and that again we would have a gated campaign, limits on time spend in the maw etc etc.

Are people so helpless with their money that they cannot leave it in their wallet but still need to buy and play a game that seems to be full of features they plainly hate? And then cry about "being milked". What happened to being grown up and making your own decisions? And standing by them?

I don't think you understand my point, and I really have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Try again?

[Niwes]

I still don't understand what difficult story content this game has? I don't think I did a single quest in this game where I thought "damn, that was challenging"...

I guess the most difficult part would be when you have to go to the Maw for your story and even that is not hard. You just have to watch your back. Yes elites are running around because IT'S THE MAW. It is this dangerous place by design. But you are not supposed to fight those dangerous enemies. You need to figure out ways to bypass them. Basically whenever you need to go into the Maw for story reasons, it's a stealth mission.

lol. i have to think a while why my challenging quest count would be 0 instead of 1. then i realized: the only thing in my mind at this point in Maw was: „thx god i play a n11 druid at the moment and can go stealth or use race ability“

so, not even 1 challenging quest for me.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think you understand my point, and I really have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Try again?

what @det wanna say here (i assume): wow caters to everybody. this means: no one is 100% happy and everyone always will have something to complain and Blizz by design can not do it right. and i assume he asked himself why not all ppl got this after such a long time.

imo wows biggest fail is to try to cater to everyone. they have NO target audience. no player type will ever be 100% happy. everything is always a compromise between many many different player types. but ppl should know this and not play wow if they do not like it.

[kranur]

but there are ppl out there that have no problems with playing a raid or some dungeons again. and again. but with another class (alt). also there are ppl that did not whine while MoP or Cata, just bc of they run out of PvE things once a week. they just played the whole game, by doing PvP, pet battles, alts, AH, collect stuff and doing achievements. these ppl never were bored. these ppl did not complain. but these ppl complain now, because they are bored of being forced to use their dedicated wow time to repeat the same shit week for week, while not having time for alts, pvp, etc.

what i wanna say: there is a HUGE difference in repeating content you like, i.e. playing a raid again and again with 2-3 alts, than being forced to do the same Maw, Thorgast, WQ, Covenant shit with same character week for week for week.

if i would not play this game for 15 years now and if i would not know enough of above ppls, i would say: maybe thats just me. but i doubt i am alone with this.

No they did not. When people had enough of the content they either quit, took a break or started complaining on the forums.

[WowIsDead64]

Not saying this to be mean whatsoever, but you really, really just need to walk away from the game. You will be much happier when you find something else to do with your time.

I actually do it. I have around 100 games in Steam and currently I play games like Terraria for long term grind, Hollow Knight for short term fun, ETS/ATS for relaxation. But I'm too connected to Wow to just go away. That's why I still provide feedback about SIMPLE and EASY changes, that could be made to keep me playing in very long term, because Wow is "global" game, that has everything, I need, so other games wouldn't be needed.

[SoloMmofriendly]

Unsubbed here precisely because of all the timegating shizzle. Not interested in being spoonfed several Torghast floors a week with a few things to do inbetween.
Already did the Keystone master and got the Curve. Current WoW experience is miserable to veteran players to say the least. If you're new player, however, things might be brighter and more pleasant.

Precisely, the issue isnt the content, it is its ability to retain the veteran players, as a new player its great learning everything from scratch and everything is of course going to seem hard, as you get better and better you realise actually, the game is pretty empty and there is nothing all that hard to do and you are as you said spoonfed most of it anyway.

What the new players dont seem to grasp is given time they will become a veteran too. blizzard are having a hard time retaining there veteran players simply because the content is now way too damn easy to complete, this sistuation will only get worse and worse the more they "simplify" the shorter the window they keep the new players engaged.

Untill they change direction and start making content harder the playerbase is only going to shrink and shrink and shrink untill finally they realise, the playerbase do not want to be spoonfed, unless they are newbies.

I see so many people saying "why would blizzard accommadate 2% of the playerbase" simple answer, them 2% of the playerbase are about to walk out the door and never return. by just ignoring them and letting them go you are just leading ALL players down a path that leads to that door thats been left wide open.

[WowIsDead64]

After testing things a little bit more, I have new info:
1) 1-50 leveling is relatively fast, but no flying till 30 is way too bad. I had 60lvl character before level squish. And after that it turned into 25 and already had flying. I thought, that flying at 25 is more or less ok, because leveling till 20 is fast. But 30??? It's 40lvls without flying vs just 20 levels with flying. It's too much, especially for locations, where it was earned via grinding Pathfinder.
2) 50-60 leveling is strange. You can start at level 48, but it makes problem with level gating worse. Leveling also feels like time-gated. I.e. no matter, what you try to do to level faster, you still fall behind. For example I completed side quests in two locations. I needed to do it in first location anyway, because I started at 48 and needed to compensate this two levels anyway. But I still hit level gating. And after doing it in two locations, I decided, that I advanced enough to skip half of Revendreth. But no! Looks like I started to get less XP for story quest and this leaded me to getting to 60 by the end of story quests. I.e. same speed, as when doing minimal amount of side quests. So, I simply wasted my time.
3) Threads of fate are overtuned and suit playing in group more. I tried level till 59.9 via story and then switch to Threads. Tried to do extra objectives. Too many elites there. Yeah, they're killable, but it takes way too long and it's way too tedious.
4) Renown catch-up is terrible. We have level 26 now and my fresh renown level 1 character had just ONE calling, that provided renown, within 3 days. He has got stuck at level 7 with nothing else to do today.
5) Exceeding competition is terrible. I thought ok, I have nothing to do on fresh alt today. May be it's time to grind anima for gear and covenant upgrades? And yeah. First WQ and it was so overcrowded, that it wasn't possible to kill any mobs. They were all dead. And when they spawned - other players were killing them way too fast.

Spoiler: 

P.S. That's, how "nothing to do" usually happens.
1) Wanted to do renown catch-up on alt - I've stuck with no further ways to continue today.
2) Wanted to do anima grind on main - it's weekend, locations are overcrowded, zero mobs alive, I gave up after circling for 15 minutes.
3) Wanted to level new alt - tried to level 20-30 via dungeons because of no-flying, but queues are just too long.
Result - I'm going play Hollow Knight with my PS1 gamepad.

[WowIsDead64]

After several days of no renown for callings, my alt now has "Kill 3 rares in Maw" WQ, that of course grants renown. Maw is sooooooooo optional, yeah. So, I guess, as I don't want to do this calling and tomorrow's calling won't grant renown again, I'm stuck at renown 7 till reset and will have nothing to do in game for another 2 days. This is so great.

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

After several days of no renown for callings, my alt now has "Kill 3 rares in Maw" WQ, that of course grants renown. Maw is sooooooooo optional, yeah. So, I guess, as I don't want to do this calling and tomorrow's calling won't grant renown again, I'm stuck at renown 7 till reset and will have nothing to do in game for another 2 days. This is so great.

Do the covenant campaign. You'll get about 9 renown for that alone. finish the "aid Covenant" fill the bar quests you get whilst leveling, that's another 3. then just do a bit of everything else the game offers.

I went from 0-24 renown in a few days after hitting 60 on my rogue alt, even passing my main that I've played for a few months now.