I miss dkp.

[Vinictus]

Where is player c - the guy who attends every raid, is utter dog shit and doesn't improve even with BiS gear? Having people like this get gear over competent people is infuriating

[Blackmist]

I used to maintain the DKP system for a guild.

I do NOT miss it. Not one fucking bit.

[Lolites]

DKP is a thing of the past... like hard content in vanilla

hard content in vanila is not thing of the past its thing of imagination content wasnt hard, people just had no clue what they are doing

[Sofo1]

again a different dkp system that i was talking about, the system that worked for me as a reward system rather than a competitive one was where items had a set dkp cost depending on slot

weapon 1300 dkp
tier 900dkp
all the rest 675dkp etc

When you would bid you would bid

1) need (100% cost)
2) minor upgrade/alt (75% cost)
3) pass.

Something like this anyway. with dkp points EARNT based on attendance and static bonuses for the whole raid given on boss kills. and static bonuses for all in attendance given for each passing hour.

So why would you ever take a minor upgrade over a need roll at the cost of 75%? those static prices will always and have always resulted in gear being disenchanted or people passing on loot because there are better items around when in reality the group might benefit from people having the slightly worse items in short term.

[Cinnamilk]

I used to maintain the DKP system for a guild.

I do NOT miss it. Not one fucking bit.

Same. Used to administer EPGP. I liked it at the time and did some math to find out the ideal parameters for decay, base ep, and min ep to administer loot to the raid in a pretty fair manner, and I was proud of what I did. It was much less drama than doing a council.

With that gone, it's actually been a big relief for me, especially that I don't play as frequently as I used to, nor do I want to. Personal loot works just fine. If you're with a group of people who give a shit about each other, they'll distribute the items that they don't need in a manner they think is fair, which is all okay with me.

[Cren]

Again someone that experienced a bad system, in the system that worked you had dkp squish each month, again balanced correctly meant new players wouldnt be too far behind at all. it was alla bout the balance in the settings whether it worked or not, maybe i was just lucky to find a guild that knew how to balance it fairly so everyone got rewarded for the time they put in.

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Yes, bid dkp bad bad bad. im not talking about bid dkp, im talking about accumilate system that was even for all, no biased awarding and no bidding, same item cost for all also dependant on slot. with a dkp squish (30%) once a month so new members werent miles behind.

If you were hoarding dkp you had it squished at the end of the month, the more you hoarded the more you lost when it was squished.

The problem with "your" system is that even if you are the only person who can use an item you might still just let it get disenchanted even tho it's an upgrade because you want to save your dkp for a better upgrade.

With the bid system (which has it's own negative things) atleast items that where minor upgrades usually didn't get disenchanted.

[Loveliest]

All systems are flawed. With personal loot at least there is almost no guild drama because it is out of the player's hands. Sadly, this is the only way to go, because people don't play fair and tend to get quite toxic. No, you can't leave it in as an option either. While i hate I haven't seen loot in ages and ppl who have half the attendance get lucky, this should be addressed through a bad luck protection system and not by leaving this to ppl.

[Elkfingers]

Loot council - yes.

DKP - nope.

Effective loot distribution is the goal. Having gear go to a player who is going to get very little benefit out of it because they have marginally more DKP than a player who would be getting a massive upgrade is about as bad as just using personal loot.

[rrayy]

Why do you think wow is losing 140k subs a year? 140k players a year getting fed up of being unrewarded for the effort they put in.

Good job player bs, good job.

Link showing us sub loss.

Also, people leave for a variety of reasons. Claiming they all left because of what you say doesn't make your point more valid.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Exactly. I hated that shit. I always felt bad for new people entering the guild and not getting their BIS until months later. There was one person on my old raid team who didn't get their BIS for like three months because he had a full time job and the people who basically live on WoW just accumulated dkp by donating materials to the guild.

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Once again, your version of dkp has never existed and it's clear you've never actually done dkp. All your comments make it more likely that you heard people talk about dkp rather than actually participating in dkp.

Maybe in Classic and TBC, but by the time of WotLK, any guild with somewhat competent leadership would have switched to a DKP system with weekly decay and set prices (or LC).

DKP without decay and people bidding against eachother is so retarded that the biggest surprise is how long that specific version of DKP lasted.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Every single DKP system we had was gamed in one way or another. I was a constant pain in the ass to fine tune the rules, especially whenever Blizzard introduced new things that ever so slightly changed the loot meta, like legendaries, special quest items or even just when new content dropped and we were practically forced to reset the points, because there was always someone who could have gotten the whole loot table for weeks with the amount of hoarded points. No thanks. I'd rather just roll for them while people keep track of the actual upgrade potential via sims before I play with DKP again.

[Relapses]

Maybe in Classic and TBC, but by the time of WotLK, any guild with somewhat competent leadership would have switched to a DKP system with weekly decay and set prices (or LC).

DKP without decay and people bidding against eachother is so retarded that the biggest surprise is how long that specific version of DKP lasted.

I started raiding in mid-WotLK and most guilds were using zero sum DKP. I kind of liked this version of DKP because it was actually a complete fucking meme.

[RoKPaNda]

You know one thing that has been consistent for all 16 years of WoW? You get adequately rewarded for the effort that you put into the game. More effort / harder content = overall better rewards. You know what else has been consistent? People whining about that and claiming that they're not getting rewarded for their effort lol.

[God Save The King]

DKP had a lot of flaws. Many of which have already been addressed in this thread. Dozens of different DKP systems exist all with differing rules to try to make it fair.

The most notable issue was any late joiners in the tier/expansion/etc. Once you passed a trial, most guilds agree you should be offered loot at the same rate as other members. However DKP made that nearly impossible to handle. It made recruitment as a DKP guild outside of point resets (if you used a system with them...) challenging as no one wanted to join a guild where they'd have to close a gap in points to get loot. Giving late arrivals a lump sum of DKP was also unfair as it depreciated the value of earlier won DKP. Most guilds handled this with a new version of DKP that decayed over time while also having point resets every tier to avoid people amassing points for the final tier and getting BiS super quickly.

It also made managing a bench difficult as people wanted to get DKP when told to sit out while players actually progressing wanted more points than doing nothing, since they were spending gold on consumables and not able to farm/do other things. So sitting people was even more contentious than a pointless system like loot council or even open rolls.

There was also the issue of roles within a guild. If you had several of the same armor/weapon type, they would often rip through their points in competition for the best loot while tanks/healers/rare roles (such as elemental shamans or holy paladins) often got their pieces for cheap, allowing them to easily outbid on cross-role loot such as cloaks, jewelry, and trinkets. This was slightly solved by the minimum bid system, but then you'd often have items no one wanted and were sharded because no one wanted to lose the valuable points, preferring to save for weapons or trinkets.

The system also bred rivalry and disdain in the raid as each piece of loot was now a competition, with prices being driven up artificially in an attempt to get someone to waste as many points as possible on the piece of gear. There were several attempts to fix that issue ranging from placing a bid costing a set amount of DKP to having a DKP buyout cost or having a miniature loot council decide if a piece was contentious. None worked that well. Raid teams should be a team and DKP undermined that.

You've since updated your post to say you really meant EPGP instead of DKP. EPGP is literally DKP with the built-in decay I mentioned before. It encouraged people to spend their points and was slightly less terrible for new members, but still had all the other issues. But like DKP, there were dozens of variations trying to fix issues. The core element of EPGP is DKP with decay, everything else is variation. DKP with decay still existed, it just wasn't called epgp.

Maybe you had experience with a specific DKP/EPGP system that had a lot of issues resolved that the community never figured out, but my guess is that you were in one of those rare roles that really benefitted from it. I played a holy paladin in an DKP guild for a while during TBC/WotLK and it was ridiculous. I was the only holy paladin so all intellect plate was automatically mine. I was able to easily get BiS quickly buy swiping away general healer gear quickly as I had the points. It was incredibly unfair for my other healers and I would routinely pass on items I could easily afford as not to be a dick. Didn't stop me from facing lots of disdain from my other healers as I easily bought my BiS each tier without much difficulty and always had a massive surplus of points when reset came around. When we finally swapped to a loot council system, our issues of burnout and turnover died within a tier, and our morale/unity improved, as did our guild ranking since we were able to get pieces where they were needed.

The single biggest issue with DKP/EPGP is the splitting of set items. In a council guild, you can get each person their 2/4 piece sets at a time. In a DKP system generally everyone gets their 1st piece, then their 2nd, and so on, drastically reducing the team's power until enough pieces had dropped, instead of funneling set items to a single player at a time, increasing overall raid power much faster.

[enigma77]

This thread got weird fast.

[Xalvia]

DKP or whatever point system based crap has produced the largest amount of drama i have ever seen.

proper LC is hands down the best way to do things. you can literally tell the moment you join if its a corrupt one, and if all LC's seems corrupt to you well then you're the lootwhore and don't want to see it.

[Ticj]

hard content in vanila is not thing of the past its thing of imagination content wasnt hard, people just had no clue what they are doing

It's hilarious to me people are still trying to say vanilla was hard when WoW classic content gets cleared in less than a day.

I say this as someone who enjoyed WoW classic lol

[Krasuss]

This thread got weird fast.

lol yea, but thats because op talks about completely different system than standard oldschool DKP where you have bidding wars with guildmates, but EPGP which is system ppl started using around Cata iirc which uses addon to do everything for you(attendance, boss kills, points spend etc.) and normal raider sees only pop-up with need/greed/pass buttons. Never seen the addon from master looter perspective, but iam quite sure it can be cheesed.

anyways both (all dkp) systems are shit..personal loot is the best BUT loot is too scarce atm and not having bonus rolls fucking sucks (they should be part of the revard from vault imo 1 per extra earned choice)

[Danuel]

And I'm not.

[prwraith]

DKP Was pretty great. especially in larger guilds. Rewards people who actually show up. As opposed to the DPS god who only makes it to one raid a month.