Opinion: Kiss/Curse powers don't belong in Torghast

[Omedon]

Obviously this is 10,000% my opinion, but I can’t resist posting this for a moment longer.

Seriously, the pitch for torghast is you gain crack powers, BUT the enemies also participate in a scaling arms race, but also you have to manage the downsides of some of your “bigger” powers.

One of these things does not belong. If there’s a scaling race with the consistently empowered foes, none of those powers should have a downside.

Oh, but you might say “make a choice, you don’t have to take the kiss/curse powers,” ok… they’re still taking up space on the RNG table and there COULD be better options in their place (because I’m sorry, the cursed powers don’t exist to me as valid choices), or they could just BE CONSISTENT UPGRADES like the NPCs will get without fail every floor!

I know, I know, Torghast is “beaten content:” for you maybe, but some of us will keep doing it and this is one of my only complaints about the main flow of the mode. I don’t get the logic: There isn’t a curse that happens to the NPCs, the power arms race is consistent on one end but RNG-based on the other AND there are kiss/curse powers polluting the pool.

A guildie of mine just showed me timebreaker’s paradox and this post just had to happen. I do not agree with this decision to have the “the fun is in the crack powers” game mode come with downsides to those powers. We wouldn’t tolerate it to this degree outside of Torghast (Surrender to Madness is a meme talent, I’m sorry), why is it ok within Torghast where the OP-high is part of the fun?

That’s my opinion, such as it is.

[Relapses]

"Man, I really regret taking that ability that stopped me from being able to jump." -nobody, ever

[misterrium]

"Man, I really regret taking that ability that stopped me from being able to jump." -nobody, ever

i did, never ever take any powerups restrict my movement in any way

[Raugnaut]

"Man, I really regret taking that ability that stopped me from being able to jump." -nobody, ever

Actually, I did a single time - In Skoldus Hall, there is an area in which you can fall off the edge into a water pool. If you have the inability to jump power, you are unable to get onto the rocks you need in order to grapple out. Thus, you are stuck and must drown.

[zyx]

its not rng the powers are set ahead of time

Wait.. So are you saying that the fact that all the powers are pre-rolled when you zone in, that it is not RNG?

[Shelly]

pick up the rope on the ground to get out

There is no rope. It's literally the 3 pixel ledge on the edge of every pool of water/lava/whatever in the game.

By dying you can then go back to the start of the level, rather than hearthing out and losing all progress.

To the OP; I actually wish there were more. I'd like to see them as more robust ones too, things like increases your damage done but lose hit rating, or you randomly use a power while in combat which can put it on CD but the powers effect is increased by 500%.

[Raugnaut]

pick up the rope on the ground to get out

You are literally unable to see the Grapples to get out. Can't interact with them, because you need to be able to jump to get on the rocks, and you can't.

[Relapses]

i did, never ever take any powerups restrict my movement in any way

Do you click to move? O_o

[Dome Fossil]

I think Torghast is the perfect place for them, since it's supposed to be a crazy world where anything goes and everything is temporary to that single run. And really, if you don't want the curse then don't take the kiss; it's just an option.

[Relapses]

Actually, I did a single time - In Skoldus Hall, there is an area in which you can fall off the edge into a water pool. If you have the inability to jump power, you are unable to get onto the rocks you need in order to grapple out. Thus, you are stuck and must drown.

That sucks but that's... kind of a one-off, too. If you know ahead of time you can't jump and you get knocked off anyway you kind of deserve to die at that point.

[Biomega]

The no-jump power is busted, it's a huge damage increase given how well primaries scale right now.

Also as a more general point, I think that kiss/curse powers are among the BEST design, because they at least theoretically force you into making choices - and choices make things interesting. If everything just translates into flat +X% damage and you merely choose between values of X that's not very interesting, and a lot of the offensive Torghast powers are exactly that.

That being said, the particular design of the kiss/curse powers in Torghast isn't all that great. Some are absurdly good, like the no-jump power (basically no downside) or powers that reduce elemental damage you don't have (oh no my Warlock deals 25% less Arcane damage!). Others are absurdly bad (like reducing elements you basically use exclusively, like -fire for a Fire Mage). There's few that aren't either insane or useless, and very few that give you actual INTERESTING choices, i.e. modifying the way you play.

A big part of why Torghast gets so boring so fast for so many people is that you so rarely do something new. A lot of powers just end with you doing virtually the same you're doing outside, just with more damage. There are some exceptions - spamming Vivify for damage from Monk, for example. But even when something modifies your rotation, often it's just simplifying it - endless Chaos Bolt spam without fillers on Destro Lock, for example, or infinite Condemn spam on Warrior. That's cool once or twice, but after a while you realize that just spamming one button for 30 minutes isn't actually all that entertaining.

[Ladey Gags]

What the heck is a kiss power

[mysticx]

What the heck is a kiss power

The whole term is "Kiss/curse power", so an advantage with a disadvantage attached, like the "More DPS, but no more jumping" one, i have also seen "Boost to haste, decrease in nature damage", they can be traps if you don't pay attention.

[Razion]

The point of Torghast is to be an endless dungeon, and like the games it was inspired by to have a lot of different ways to change up your play so that runs were always different. If Torghast was only flat 1% increases to stats like the old talent trees it wouldn't create as many interesting builds and your variety for entertainment would be more predictible and it would get stale.

That's was the theory anyway.

In practice Torghast isn't a game played on repeats for wacky runs like the games that inspired it - it is run for rewards more or less.

While I would agree that in the Torghast we got the idea of less curse and more unga bunga power sweep kill all 100% of the time and never fail to get the reward is better...

... for the dream they were trying to go for, they were trying to make something enjoyable and replayable for its own sake. Perhaps had it been, kiss/curse would have worked to its benefit.

It's unfortunate Torghast turned out this way. And now that the reality is here the question of whether to try and make that vision and maybe fail or try to do damage control is a hard one.

But to be perfectly selfish, I would agree ultimately and say the kiss/curse as it is now isn't fun and in the current iteration isn't meshing with how it was envisioned so yes - it is out of place.

[Azerate]

Some of those "kiss/curse" powers as you call them are really powerful though. I used to avoid them, but then I had a run of corridors where I had 2x the power that increases your haste by 25% and decreases healing done. I think that ended up being my one of the smoothest runs where I was the most powerful. Healing up was a bit harder, but I was demolishing everything so much more than usual.

But yeah, there are also certain ones you should never take depending on your class. I think that's also quite cool. Like there are those that remove the cooldown on your abilities but decrease dmg by 50% or something. Might work for some classes, and for some it might not.

[rowaasr13]

i did, never ever take any powerups restrict my movement in any way

Even that one that blocks S-backpedaling, that no sane man should use ever?

[Dristereau]

Some of them are cool, especially Warlock sacrificing HP for Haste and Souls for more powerful Summons. I've also enjoyed the one where your Damage increases each floor but your Hp decreases (That was an interesting run ).

The increase 'x school' damage/healing and decrease 'y school' damage/healing are interesting, as well as the Bone Rare's Dust where everything has an increased 25% Crit Chance, including against you.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of that Timebreakers Paradox right now, but who knows, I haven't levelled my Mage yet. However why should they not exist in Torghast? It's a fun experimental place.

[owbu]

As long as the kisses are stronger than the curses, I don't see a problem. You have the choice between a good power up or an even better one with a downside and both help you overcome the scaling of the enemies.

It's just that the power ups are so badly balanced that a lot of the ones without downsides are stronger and more universally helpful than just the upside part of the kiss curse ones.

Which is obviously broken and needs to be fixed.

[MrKnubbles]

I like that they exist. I don't always take them but sometimes I do. It depends on if I'm solo or in a group, if I'm ranged or melee, if I'm dps or a tank. It really depends on the situation but I like that they exist because it's a different choice rather than a flat damage increase. Those are the most boring upgrades.

[Lefrog]

The problem I have with the kiss/curse abilities is that they are rarely part of a "build." That makes them less interesting over all even though I almost always take them unless part of my build shows up along side one.

The abilities, if chosen correctly, will help you out scale the race...same as other powers...so not sure what the initial complaint is about? The only difference is you have to consider how badly the curse can screw you over...but to anyone who has played enough, the curse isn't something that can unknowingly end your run. That's why so few people take the "no backpedal" power. Ahead of time you just know it's not worth it.