Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[Machismo]

And yet, you're fine with people being forced into capitalism.

Seems like your issue isn't actually the use of force, mate.

Inherent to the concept of "choice" must be the existence of an alternative. I sure know I was never offered an alternative to the capitalist frameworks that make up so much of the economic system of my country. It wasn't a "choice", at all.

And before you say "well, you could move to another country", go ahead and name me a liberal market socialist nation real quick, would you?

Not at all. if they want to be communists, good for them. They can choose to not be capitalistic. They don't need to participate. Just as I support the freedom for capitalism to exist, I also support the freedom for communism to exist.

I understand that some force is actually going to happen, because humans are rat bastards. There is a statistically-existent set of outliers that will refuse to adhere to anything, whatever that may be. And, as has been pointed out, anarchy has no real means in which to deal with those outliers.

Oh, I'm well aware that you had no choice, which is why I have long said taxes are forced upon people, and they are not an actual choice. I'd love if it were otherwise. But, it seems you are coming around to the old adage that taxation is theft.

As for you demanding me make your argument for you, no thanks.

[Themius]

Not at all. if they want to be communists, good for them. They can choose to not be capitalistic. They don't need to participate. Just as I support the freedom for capitalism to exist, I also support the freedom for communism to exist.

I understand that some force is actually going to happen, because humans are rat bastards. There is a statistically-existent set of outliers that will refuse to adhere to anything, whatever that may be. And, as has been pointed out, anarchy has no real means in which to deal with those outliers.

Oh, I'm well aware that you had no choice, which is why I have long said taxes are forced upon people, and they are not an actual choice. I'd love if it were otherwise. But, it seems you are coming around to the old adage that taxation is theft.

As for you demanding me make your argument for you, no thanks.

So far... most people want communism. People that are in countries part of the USSR in recent polling show most think things were better back then. That wasn't even full communism then.

I mean just think about it, after the ussr falls there were times when people backed by western Europe and the US suspended elections... and stopped people from voting because too many were voting to return to soviet style government.

[Endus]

Not at all. if they want to be communists, good for them. They can choose to not be capitalistic. They don't need to participate. Just as I support the freedom for capitalism to exist, I also support the freedom for communism to exist.

You can't seriously think this argument holds water.

We're talking about economic systems, here. They aren't individual choices. If you're living in a capitalist economy, you can't "choose to be communist"; you're forced into that capitalist society just to get by. I can't walk into a grocery store and present my self-printed ration card and grab my groceries and walk out without paying, can I?

[Machismo]

So far... most people want communism. People that are in countries part of the USSR in recent polling show most think things were better back then. That wasn't even full communism then.

I mean just think about it, after the ussr falls there were times when people backed by western Europe and the US suspended elections... and stopped people from voting because too many were voting to return to soviet style government.

It doesn't really matter what most people want. At one point, most people wanted an authoritarian theocracy, or wanted slavery. That's why I have such a problem with authoritarianism, because it doesn't really take consideration of what anyone outside of the majority wants, or even deserves.

If you want communism, great!!! Just don't try to force it onto others.

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You can't seriously think this argument holds water.

We're talking about economic systems, here. They aren't individual choices. If you're living in a capitalist economy, you can't "choose to be communist"; you're forced into that capitalist society just to get by. I can't walk into a grocery store and present my self-printed ration card and grab my groceries and walk out without paying, can I?

Sure you can, start a commune. Start a farming collective. This is exactly why I support voluntary governance that is based on people, and not on land.

Therein lies the problem with communism, the problem isn't that people want to be communist, it's that they want everyone else to be communist, as well. Communists are not alone in this mentality. Hell, self-proclaimed anarchists are famous for trying to force it.

[Shadowferal]

So does capitalism.........hmmmmmm

That's my point. On one, the most money (i.e. multinational corporations), on the other, whoever has the most guns. Depends upon how "power/strength" is interpreted.
Of course if when things reach that point then it's hell.

[Mihalik]

That's my point. On one, the most money (i.e. multinational corporations), on the other, whoever has the most guns. Depends upon how "power/strength" is interpreted.
Of course if when things reach that point then it's hell.

Not quite. This is only specific within the American framework because the notion of labor organization has been completely wiped out of the American national consciousness.

There's a third pillar of power. The power of workers to withhold their labor.

You can have as much money as you want, if people refuse to work for you unless you give in to their demands nothing gets done.

[Themius]

It doesn't really matter what most people want. At one point, most people wanted an authoritarian theocracy, or wanted slavery. That's why I have such a problem with authoritarianism, because it doesn't really take consideration of what anyone outside of the majority wants, or even deserves.

If you want communism, great!!! Just don't try to force it onto others.

Weird how you have an issue with communism being forced on people but we literally are in a system where capitalism is forced.

Most people "wanted" authoritarian theocracy? Most "wanted" slavery? Poor arguments... the slaves and the poor indentured whites didn't "want" slavery... in fact whites and blacks often worked together given they were in a similar position as there wasn't chattel slavery yet. The 1676 bacon rebellion changed all that by creating a new class.

[Machismo]

Weird how you have an issue with communism being forced on people but we literally are in a system where capitalism is forced.

Most people "wanted" authoritarian theocracy? Most "wanted" slavery? Poor arguments... the slaves and the poor indentured whites didn't "want" slavery... in fact whites and blacks often worked together given they were in a similar position as there wasn't chattel slavery yet. The 1676 bacon rebellion changed all that by creating a new class.

I don't support capitalism being forced, as I already stated. You seem to be projecting some things onto me.

That's the point, some people don't want a certain system. If people don't want communism, I have no desire to force them into it. If people don't want capitalism, I have no desire to force them into it. I expect the same in return.

Now, do you wish to force your particular brand of communism (or capitalism) onto others? If so, we have a problem.

[Themius]

I don't support capitalism being forced, as I already stated. You seem to be projecting some things onto me.

That's the point, some people don't want a certain system. If people don't want communism, I have no desire to force them into it. If people don't want capitalism, I have no desire to force them into it. I expect the same in return.

Now, do you wish to force your particular brand of communism (or capitalism) onto others? If so, we have a problem.

I forget sometimes you are a libertarian who's motto is almost entirely "let whatever may be, be" There will always be some people against something, in the end the system that benefits society should be the one to win, and frankly it should be forced because the alternative is just to continue down the same shitty path.

Capitalism by virtue of its existance functions on force and coercion there is little choice to be outside of that system.

[Machismo]

I forget sometimes you are a libertarian who's motto is almost entirely "let whatever may be, be" There will always be some people against something, in the end the system that benefits society should be the one to win, and frankly it should be forced because the alternative is just to continue down the same shitty path.

Capitalism by virtue of its existance functions on force and coercion there is little choice to be outside of that system.

The issue is your opinion on what benefits society is not the same as mine. You're dealing with subjective issues, and trying to mandate them. Now, there's some things that almost everyone agrees is bad... like murder, and raping children. However, when dealing with things that are starkly divided, and not a consensus. Politics is all about personal priorities, and you and I will never agree on those priorities. The key difference is that I support far less force and coercion than you do.

Your system you wish to implement exists by force and coercion, there is little choice to be outside of it, if you had your way.

[Antiganon]

The issue is your opinion on what benefits society is not the same as mine. You're dealing with subjective issues, and trying to mandate them. Now, there's some things that almost everyone agrees is bad... like murder, and raping children. However, when dealing with things that are starkly divided, and not a consensus. Politics is all about personal priorities, and you and I will never agree on those priorities. The key difference is that I support far less force and coercion than you do.

Your system you wish to implement exists by force and coercion, there is little choice to be outside of it, if you had your way.

To be fair, capitalism exists based on force and coercion. The only rule of capitalism is the golden rule - "Whoever has the gold makes the rules".

If you don't have generational wealth or access to robust public funded education, it is impossible to ever amass enough wealth or power to be equal at the bargaining table with those who already have both.

[Machismo]

To be fair, capitalism exists based on force and coercion. The only rule of capitalism is the golden rule - "Whoever has the gold makes the rules".

If you don't have generational wealth or access to robust public funded education, it is impossible to ever amass enough wealth or power to be equal at the bargaining table with those who already have both.

It does exist by force and coercion, in the current paradigm. That's what corporatism is.

I fully support people who wish to live as communists. I simply oppose their desire to force it upon others. And, as we've seen with communism over the past 100+ years, there's a great deal of force and coercion involved.

[gondrin]

On a lighter side of the news, in a perfectly timed gaffe, Schumer claimed Trump incited the Erection - Insurrection - against the United States. I think we need to ask ole Lady G about this.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgdhp

As lawmakers are preparing to hold former President Donald Trump accountable on impeachment charges of inciting an insurrection, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi spoke out on Friday after Pelosi said she would deliver the articles of impeachment to the Senate.

Schumer announced the news on the Senate floor Friday morning, telling lawmakers that he was in discussions with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell on how long the trial will last and when it will begin. “But make no mistake, a trial will be held in the United States Senate, and there will be a vote whether to convict the president,” Schumer told the Senate.

Then, something special happened: It was Schumer’s next line in his address to US senators that caused a much-needed laugh for some, if not a moment of (humble) embarrassment for the Senate Majority Leader. “When that trial ends, senators will have to decide whether they believe Donald John Trump incited the erection — insurrection — against the United States.” It was an unfortunate, yet hilarious, gaffe in the very serious matter of convicting a former president on charges of inciting the violent siege of the US Capitol. But it was the gaffe we all needed after a very serious week.

https://twitter.com/jamieson/status/...m_medium%3Drss

In seriousness, Schumer is currently in talks with McConnell to solidify a start date for the trial after receiving a proposal from the Senate Minority Leader requesting to start the trial on February 13. But Schumer reportedly rejected McConnell’s last-minute request and is attempting to push forward with the trial. Whether or not both parties ultimately agree on whether to push the start date back, sources told CNN the articles will be read and senators and the presiding officer will be sworn in Tuesday afternoon.

The House voted to impeach the former president on January 13, just one week before President Joe Biden was inaugurated on the 20th. While Trump is no longer a sitting president, the Senate now has an opportunity to make sure he will never again be legally allowed to become president, after encouraging his supporters to overthrow the 2020 election results by force.

While Schumer was noticeably embarrassed by his “erection” comment, it was also a moment of levity that many people needed on this first Friday in Joe Biden’s America. And for that, we thank him.

[shimerra]

If the big problem is that anarchist societies can be abused.. I got some news about how that already applies to every single idealogy that we have.



Its a meaningless argument.

Try reading what's actually said because what you claimed was said is not the point being made. Every system can be abused. It's how that abuse is dealt with or mitigated and prevented.


I got some news for you. Your ideas take the existing issues and replace them with worse ones at best and allow the current ones to reemerge on top of the new problems you created at worst. I see no reason to replace the existing system with your shittier one that allows for more abuse or an eventual reversion to something like the status quo with extra headaches in-between.

Try understanding what the actual argument is before declaring it meaningless. Especially with all your pissing and moaning about how people here just don't understand real anarchism.

[xChurch]

When did this become the highschool civics thread?

[Machismo]

When did this become the highschool civics thread?

I'm actually fine when threads take a different turn. It all originated from trying to decide of anarchism is inherently left, or right.

Regardless, pushing it back to the topic. These asshats aren't anarchists, they're violent fascists and terrorists. The more news that comes out, the more you see that the groups like the Oathkeepers and 3%ers were coordinating their attacks, and were plotting significantly more violence. Many opted for violence out of opportunity, but for quite a few, it was all planned.

[Themius]

It does exist by force and coercion, in the current paradigm. That's what corporatism is.

I fully support people who wish to live as communists. I simply oppose their desire to force it upon others. And, as we've seen with communism over the past 100+ years, there's a great deal of force and coercion involved.

You seem to want to forget over the past 100 years... all the interference...

[shimerra]

You seem to want to forget over the past 100 years... all the interference...

And you seem to forget his personal opinion on what should happen and what the US government actually does aren't the same thing. Communist countries that could often did their own meddling and were as they themselves devolved into authoritarian states.

Let's not pretend the US or anti communist forces were the only ones interfering in the business of others.

[Machismo]

You seem to want to forget over the past 100 years... all the interference...

Are you saying the USSR would be perfectly fine if it weren't for the United States? How about China?

Sorry, I don't ascribe to your love of forced communism. To me, forced communism isn't much different than forced fascism.

[Themius]

Are you saying the USSR would be perfectly fine if it weren't for the United States? How about China?

Sorry, I don't ascribe to your love of forced communism. To me, forced communism isn't much different than forced fascism.

USSR has issues, but there were outside factors at play there. Perfectly fine? No... better than it went? Probably yes.

China maybe, maybe not, but Chile probably would have been. Cuba probably would have been. Venezuela probably would have been.

North Korea may have been. Vietnam probably would have been.

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And you seem to forget his personal opinion on what should happen and what the US government actually does aren't the same thing.

Pointing to history to say "look it can't work" while ignoring our actions....is silly.