Is it Time to Bring Back Primary Stats?

[Jonnusthegreat]

Hold up. I take the time to lay out how you're wrong, and why. Your response is 'nuh-uh, imma just restate my premise'?

The function of stats is not granted by other stats. They have individual functions which interact with one another, and that's an important difference. Under the old system, you had a set list of gear which you had to obtain in order to be optimal. As things stand, you can reach a near-optimal state through different gear combinations because of how stats interact with one another in varying combinations.

No matter how many times you assert that the two systems would be functionally the same, it doesn't change the reality that they wouldn't be. At all.

I don't think you understood that statement - the statement was "If itemlevel was derived from the amount of primary stat on a piece, there would be no functional difference" and that statement is true, since there are zero factors that determine itemlevel on a piece, like a chest piece, besides the itemlevel. The itemlevel grants a 'budget' and there is zero deviation. Since there are no other variables, one is completely defined by the other. Secondary stats are different, because a budget could be 200, and then you have hundreds of possibilities within that budget, versus the one possibility for primary stat. I want more than one possibility. I have NEVER said get rid of the power bonus from primary stats.

This right here. This proves that you don't get it. I'm starting to doubt that you even played under the old gearing system, because everybody worked to complete a predefined BiS set back in the day. Where are the 'interesting interactions' there? If you truly understood how gearing currently works, you wouldn't be making the case for regression here.

I have played since beta. Homogenization has been an improvement in class design I believe, but gear has been homogenized too much. There is currently a predefined BiS set. There always will be. I'd like it to be more complex than it currently is (I am a mathematician, so maybe that's where that comes from).

This is just semantics. And it's incorrect. Both primary and secondary stats are determined by ilvl, because ilvl determines the budget. The budget is not the same thing as the stats themselves, which is why we use different terms to refer to each. Under this schema of reductionism for the sake of it, you could also argue that secondary stats are also a substitute for 'power' too.

Why not get rid of those? Just be done with it and have each piece just have a DPS value on it. There would be no interactions, though. Complexity in and of itself doesn't lead to interesting interactions between stats, but what you're proposing would reduce complexity in such a way that it would make stat interactions objectively less impactful, and interesting by extension. I really can't stress enough how much you obviously aren't grasping how this all works.

That's the point - it's semantics. The "budget" isn't really a budget when there is only one option (primary stat). The budget for primary stat is exactly the same thing as the stat itself, because there are zero exceptions in the entire game. Yes, secondaries are a substitute for 'power,' but there is differentiation in secondaries. This is a good system.

What I am proposing would not reduce complexity. Not sure how you got that from anything I've written. It would increase complexity. That's the point. Everyone else seems to realize that it would make stat interactions objectively more impactful. I honestly don't know how you've gotten to your conclusion.

No dude. They're absolutely right. What isn't conducive to discussion is the fact that despite multiple people laying out the key concepts that you're missing, you have such a strong bias towards not being wrong about this that you don't even try to engage with the points that everybody here has made. You just say that they're wrong and restate your premise. That's not a discussion, my dude. That's just you insisting that you're right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

No, he is wrong in that I don't understand the mechanics of the gearing system. He disagrees with my opinion, which is fine, but everything I've written shows that I fully understand the gearing system and how stats affect it. If you'd like, I can restate my opinion for you again in a different way.

Many people have disagreed with me, and that is fine. A game cannot please everyone. What is incorrect is to say that I don't understand gear. You haven't made any points here. What you've done is tell me I'm wrong and don't understand things. That is incorrect. You clearly think the current gearing system should not be changed. I disagree. Your opinion is not wrong, I disagree with it. You are wrong in that you think I don't understand.

[huth]

I have NEVER said get rid of the power bonus from primary stats.

Yes, you have. You just continually fail to understand that those two things are one and the same.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Yes, you have. You just continually fail to understand that those two things are one and the same.

No, I have continually said that it might as well be baked into itemlevel, because there is no functional difference.

[huth]

No, I have continually said that it might as well be baked into itemlevel, because there is no functional difference.

And you fail again. It already is baked into it in the way you suggest. That is why there is no functional difference.

[Jonnusthegreat]

And you fail again. It already is baked into it in the way you suggest. That is why there is no functional difference.

That's the problem.

[tikcol]

it would be a little....awkward with personal loot,in the past warriors wanted a bunch of leather,agility gave crit and other usefull stats,attack power more than str actualy gave atackk power...or armor pen

my holy pala in wrath had less plate than any other armor type lol

personaly i think they should just make primary stats do more...and different things,and have it be differently budgeted like with secondaries

I hate to break it to you but you were playing the game wrong if you had any cloth on your holy paladin during wrath.

If you're talking about classic or tbc then you were playing it right. Not in wrath.

[Elkfingers]

there are zero factors that determine itemlevel on a piece, like a chest piece, besides the itemlevel.

You seeing how circular this is too, bruh?

[huth]

I hate to break it to you but you were playing the game wrong if you had any cloth on your holy paladin during wrath.

If you're talking about classic or tbc then you were playing it right. Not in wrath.

Armour specialisations came in Cata, not in WotLK. In WotLK, the only downside a Holy Paladin had to not wearing plate was greater competition and lower armour value.

[tikcol]

Armour specialisations came in Cata, not in WotLK. In WotLK, the only downside a Holy Paladin had to not wearing plate was greater competition and lower armour value.

Wotlk plate gear was heavy on intellect and crit which were the best stats. All BiS lists for holy paladin were plate. Armor specialization wasn't the point

[deenman]

I hate to break it to you but you were playing the game wrong if you had any cloth on your holy paladin during wrath.

If you're talking about classic or tbc then you were playing it right. Not in wrath.

you maybe are confusing wrath with cata,and actualy wrath was by far the worst when it came to paladins not using plate,in classic you cant go wrong with 8/8 t3 so u were mostly plate with a few cloth off pieces,meanwile the t10 4p was useless,u only needed 2 pieces,and in tbc i dont recall to well would need to google a bis list to be sure,but from what i remember our power whent down a lot from classic,and i think we needed more mp5 at that time so plate with mp5 was fine i think

- - - Updated - - -

Wotlk plate gear was heavy on intellect and crit which were the best stats. All BiS lists for holy paladin were plate. Armor specialization wasn't the point

uhm...like half the plate had mp5 on it and some odd stat alocations,inttelect was the same on all pieces of the same ilvl,we needed a lot of cloth and mail pieces that gave the most crit posible,and some haste,i played in a 25hlk guild with like 5 paladins over 2.4 k in 3's,i think we knew what we were doing

[Atrea]

Ahh it's been a while since I've seen an OP come up with a really poorly thought-out idea, but think it's a really awesome idea, and defend it for an entire thread.

Just take the L dude. Stick to whatever it is you're good at in life, and leave the things you are not good at (game design for example) to people who have more education, experience, and a wider perspective beyond "what I personally would enjoy", particularly when it's something that virtually everyone else is saying "fuck no" to.

[Gestopft]

That's the problem.

Soooo...you're suggesting a variable budget for primary stats just so you can have more math to do?

[Jonnusthegreat]

Soooo...you're suggesting a variable budget for primary stats just so you can have more math to do?

Yes, as well as being able to benefit from more than one primary stat.

[Gestopft]

Yes, as well as being able to benefit from more than one primary stat.

Why not suggest more secondary budget per item, or more different secondary stats? Or to bring back reforging? Or more items like trinkets that can have varying effects to take into account when gearing or even be class-based?

Why primary stats? I mean...from what I can recall, benefiting from multiple primaries was...rather shoehorned in, at least for most of the classes. And really, a lot of it was mostly about making the gear even usable for more classes/specs so that there weren't all these drops going to waste, or so that particular classes/specs had enough drops to choose from, etc.

I dunno, out of all the ways to make gearing more 'interesting' (noting that each idea/system comes with its own issue set), "broader primary stat usage" seems like a weird one to pick. Is it a nostalgia thing? Because honestly I just don't get it.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Why not suggest more secondary budget per item, or more different secondary stats? Or to bring back reforging? Or more items like trinkets that can have varying effects to take into account when gearing or even be class-based?

Why primary stats? I mean...from what I can recall, benefiting from multiple primaries was...rather shoehorned in, at least for most of the classes. And really, a lot of it was mostly about making the gear even usable for more classes/specs so that there weren't all these drops going to waste, or so that particular classes/specs had enough drops to choose from, etc.

I dunno, out of all the ways to make gearing more 'interesting' (noting that each idea/system comes with its own issue set), "broader primary stat usage" seems like a weird one to pick. Is it a nostalgia thing? Because honestly I just don't get it.

The 'off-brand' primaries would effectively be similar to secondaries, yes. I still want reforging back, its removal was one of the worst decisions made for wow. I don't want a diablo 3 style loot system because it wouldn't work in wow with weekly limits. I would like more interesting loot choices. Having 'classic druid' gear would be terrible, where they just gave you everything just because would be bad. But having a plate gloves that gave 60 strength and 15 agility and 10 intellect would be interesting to me, with agility and intellect giving some bonus, perhaps even negligible. With the spec-changing-stats technology, items could still having shifting bonuses.

As it currently stands, my windwalker monk has... I think 0 intelligence? Does that make me literally cognitively disabled? It just doesn't make sense that I am the most agile being to have graced the earth, yet am not strong enough to lift a sword, because I'm guessing that I have 0 strength? Allowing off-brand primaries could add flavor to certain items. As has been mentioned before, it would complicate loot more (from a metagame perspective).

[dzd]

Ahh it's been a while since I've seen an OP come up with a really poorly thought-out idea, but think it's a really awesome idea, and defend it for an entire thread.

Just take the L dude. Stick to whatever it is you're good at in life, and leave the things you are not good at (game design for example) to people who have more education, experience, and a wider perspective beyond "what I personally would enjoy", particularly when it's something that virtually everyone else is saying "fuck no" to.

I can't stop laughing at this. I don't recommend game designing for you either, just leave it to more educated people LMAO

edit: I'm sorry but I have to ask. Are you the final boss of the internet?

[Gestopft]

I would like more interesting loot choices. But having a plate gloves that gave 60 strength and 15 agility and 10 intellect would be interesting to me, with agility and intellect giving some bonus, perhaps even negligible. With the spec-changing-stats technology, items could still having shifting bonuses.

"Negligible bonus" and "interesting loot choices" don't really...go together. From this:

As it currently stands, my windwalker monk has... I think 0 intelligence? Does that make me literally cognitively disabled? It just doesn't make sense that I am the most agile being to have graced the earth, yet am not strong enough to lift a sword, because I'm guessing that I have 0 strength? Allowing off-brand primaries could add flavor to certain items.

it sounds like a collision between a (literal) conception of character fantasy and game mechanics. I dunno. I have never wondered if my warrior needs to be a drooling immobile brute because she has no +Int or +Agi on her gear. I just consider gear to be mostly a 'game mechanics' thing and put it in a separate mental box from 'character conception.'

I still want reforging back, its removal was one of the worst decisions made for wow.

I think it was a reasonable decision at the time (even if I disagreed with it then), but given the lower prevalence of gem/enchant slots to fill, I think it'd be fine to have it back, though I don't think it would necessarily be that 'interesting' without hit and expertise to balance.

[huth]

I think it was a reasonable decision at the time (even if I disagreed with it then), but given the lower prevalence of gem/enchant slots to fill, I think it'd be fine to have it back, though I don't think it would necessarily be that 'interesting' without hit and expertise to balance.

I'd argue it was never interesting in the first place. It just gave us an optimisation problem that most people would just plug into a convenient calculator and otherwise not really worry about, and the lack of Expertise and Hit reduces it to what's basically "reforge worst stat to best stat" with little thought involved.

[breadisfunny]

there's a reason that garbage was removed.

[Mysterymask]

As a rogue....seriously glad they did away with it especially now that had said old system stayed in place I now have 2 more classes to fucking share with. So oh sure lets let warriors, pallys, dks, hunters, AND shaman have a crack at our leather that I still have to share with Demon Hunters Druids AND Monks and we have no alternatives! Int was never going to be useful for us and all the strength gear is plate so...yeah