1. #3441
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    He’s about twice as large as a Tauren, far larger than a pocket factory.
    Pocket factory was bigger than guard towers. That's one big demon!


    So in other words you can’t find any NPC abilities in WoW that have level requirements. Again, that’s all you needed to say.
    Why would I? It has nothing to do with future player classes.

    Rock-it turret, Deth Lazor, and Robo Goblin aren’t bombs..
    You mean technological weapon themes already covered by Engineering?

  2. #3442
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Pocket factory was bigger than guard towers. That's one big demon!

    DKs were also bigger than guard towers in WC3;




    Why would I? It has nothing to do with future player classes.
    Then why put them in the game? They're obviously not going to the profession, since professions don't house abilities. They're also not heading to any class, because no class matches their theme. So where are they going to go? Limbo?

    You mean technological weapon themes already covered by Engineering?
    How is it covered if we can't use any of those abilities?

    For example, Necromancer is covered, since DKs can raise a hose of undead creatures, control the powers of the lich, and tank via vampirism. Engineering can't even build a mech that will allow us to complete World quests or fighting inside dungeons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No they don't. There is nothing in the game suggesting they are curious about tech. they're a nomad race from the desert that doesn't bother with technology much like trolls. So if vulpera can be tinkers ANYONE can be one. And I don't little fox people because furry races are cringe.
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=138151/tinkerin-taji

  3. #3443
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    DKs were also bigger than guard towers in WC3;






    Then why put them in the game? They're obviously not going to the profession, since professions don't house abilities. They're also not heading to any class, because no class matches their theme. So where are they going to go? Limbo?



    How is it covered if we can't use any of those abilities?

    For example, Necromancer is covered, since DKs can raise a hose of undead creatures, control the powers of the lich, and tank via vampirism. Engineering can't even build a mech that will allow us to complete World quests or fighting inside dungeons.

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    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=138151/tinkerin-taji
    If ONE npc justifies the entire race then mag'har, forsaken, dwarves, humans, draenei, and nightborne can ALL be tinkers.

  4. #3444
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If ONE npc justifies the entire race then mag'har, forsaken, dwarves, humans, draenei, and nightborne can ALL be tinkers.
    Sure, if they were the right size.....

  5. #3445
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Sure, if they were the right size.....
    Size is 100% irrelevant. The only person who thinks size is a factor is you.

  6. #3446
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is it covered if we can't use any of those abilities?
    Engineering covers practically everything you asked for. Can't be helped that Blizzard isn't making it all mainline part of class gameplay, just like they haven't formally added Dark Ranger or Necromancer or Bard gameplay into the game. Just having the gaps exist doesn't mean they need to be filled by a new class.

    You are arguing that abilities justify the addition of a class, whereas the truth is a class is decided on first and abilities are taken from anywhere Blizzard designers see fit, whether from other games, other warcraft titles, other classes or simply something completely new.

    Monks and Brewmasters for example got picked as a class first and had abilities added after. How do we know? The game shipped without Storm Earth and Fire, the Brewmaster ultimate ability, only to be patched in much later. It shows that the abilities aren't what informs the class, otherwise SEF wouldn't have been left out of the original design.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-24 at 02:15 AM.

  7. #3447
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Size is 100% irrelevant. The only person who thinks size is a factor is you.
    Actually it matters quite a bit. Lore wise there’s no reason for physically strong races to build mechs. Gameplay-wise an Orc mechs would have to be significantly larger than an Orc to have an effect and not look silly. That can cause clipping and visibility issues. Smaller races match the lore, and prevent visibility problems.

  8. #3448
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So does that mean that the lore is meaningless?
    The lore of Heroes of the Storm is meaningless when we're discussing the lore of World of Warcraft.

    This is purely head canon.
    Why are you acting like you have less self-awareness than a rock? You literally deal in the most absurd and asinine headcanons, here! You have the headcanon that characters in Warcraft lore lose all their knowledge of a profession the moment they decide to stop practicing said profession! You have the headcanon that the player characters are special super-powered mutants that don't need water, food or sleep to survive!

    And you have the inane arrogance to dismiss my arguments as headcanon?

    You have no idea if they retain any knowledge or not.
    I don't have to. It's basic logic.

    A mech that is absurd to gather mats for, can't leave Broken Isles, and can't loot anything. Quite the engineering feat.
    Well, I have never seen Mekkatorque being able to loot anything in his mech. Sarcasm aside, you're moving the goalposts. The point is that the engineering profession is capable of building those devices, whereas those you tout as "master tinkers" have never been shown to make anything that the profession cannot.

    Cool, so then canon and lore are meaningless.
    The canon and lore of the Heroes of the Storm are meaningless, yes.

    You've already stated that we have abilities that aren't canon yet exist in the game and within the classes.
    I have never wrote that World of Warcraft abilities are not canon. You are misrepresenting my argument. This is what I wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That is a World of Warcraft ability, and therefore canon. This one, on the other hand, is not canon.

    Sort of like Monks aren't the type of Monk you want to play as.
    One: whataboutism.
    Two: who said they're not?

    There's always Vulpera....
    Who are less "tinker material" than almost all the other present races. Humans and night elves are more tinker-material than the vulpera, especially considering we do have human and night elf tinkers in the lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Sure, if they were the right size.....
    Size is irrelevant.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #3449
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Engineering covers practically everything you asked for. Can't be helped that Blizzard isn't making it all mainline part of class gameplay, just like they haven't formally added Dark Ranger or Necromancer or Bard gameplay into the game. Just having the gaps exist doesn't mean they need to be filled by a new class.

    Dark Ranger: Hunters had Black Arrow for years.

    Necromancer: DKs (theme) and Warlocks (gameplay) cover it.

    Bard: Blizzard has never introduced a Bard hero into Warcraft, ever.

    As for engineering, there’s a difference between mainline and invalid. The stuff you say “covers” the Tinker is unusable in any competitive gameplay environment, even leveling.

    You are arguing that abilities justify the addition of a class, whereas the truth is a class is decided on first and abilities are taken from anywhere Blizzard designers see fit, whether from other games, other warcraft titles, other classes or simply something completely new.

    Monks and Brewmasters for example got picked as a class first and had abilities added after. How do we know? The game shipped without Storm Earth and Fire, the Brewmaster ultimate ability, only to be patched in much later. It shows that the abilities aren't what informs the class, otherwise SEF wouldn't have been left out of the original design.
    Name a WC3 hero outside of the Alchemist and Tinker who has never had any of its abilities in the class lineup in the history of WoW.

    If abilities are taken anywhere designers see fit, why have the WC3 hero abilities been mined dry? Further, since the destination of all of WC3 hero abilities been to WoW classes, wouldn’t it stand to reason that the last two heroes would also have their abilities eventually moved to the class lineup?

    I mean, despite the BS you’re talking now, you know those abilities will never show up in the professions.

  10. #3450
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    ^ this...

    Still waiting for a reason to play gnome and goblin lol. Its Tinker or bust :P
    I hope to god they don't pull the same 2-race class bullshit like they did with Demon Hunter.

    Mag'har (Iron Horde), Orcs, Goblins, Blood Elves, Undead, Humans, Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves (literally former Blood Elves), Draenei, Gnomes, and Mechagnomes ALL have backgrounds in machinery. I'd be willing to admit that Mechagnomes, Goblins, and Gnomes would likely be the lore-forefathers of the class, just like Belves and Nelves are for Demon Hunters, but yeah we're so deep into Azeroth lore now that we've all seen these races display some form or another of ingenuity when it comes to machinery.

    Oh and also- I'd absolutely love it if the Exo-suit tank spec and Torbjorn ranged DPS spec (assuming there are) had turrets/suits themed after their races art style. The Dwarven exo suit could look like Ulduar tech. The Dark Iron's like Dark Iron Golems, the Mag'har's like Iron Horde, Goblin's like Shredders, etc. None of this would be stuff we haven't already seen exist in azeroth already.
    Eagerly waiting one expansion at a time for the Tinker/Mechanic/Engineer class since 2010

  11. #3451
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForrestAnthony View Post
    I hope to god they don't pull the same 2-race class bullshit like they did with Demon Hunter.

    Mag'har (Iron Horde), Orcs, Goblins, Blood Elves, Undead, Humans, Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves (literally former Blood Elves), Draenei, Gnomes, and Mechagnomes ALL have backgrounds in machinery. I'd be willing to admit that Mechagnomes, Goblins, and Gnomes would likely be the lore-forefathers of the class, just like Belves and Nelves are for Demon Hunters, but yeah we're so deep into Azeroth lore now that we've all seen these races display some form or another of ingenuity when it comes to machinery.

    Oh and also- I'd absolutely love it if the Exo-suit tank spec and Torbjorn ranged DPS spec (assuming there are) had turrets/suits themed after their races art style. The Dwarven exo suit could look like Ulduar tech. The Dark Iron's like Dark Iron Golems, the Mag'har's like Iron Horde, Goblin's like Shredders, etc. None of this would be stuff we haven't already seen exist in azeroth already.
    At most I could see it break down as Horde: Goblin, Vulpera, Orc, Maghar
    Alliance: Gnome, Mechgnome, Dwarf, Dark Iron.

    Nightborne and L Draenei are more of a long shot, but possible.

    Personally I’d be surprised if they went beyond Goblins, Gnomes and their allied races.

    I definitely think you’re going to see some elements of D.va and Torb within the class.

  12. #3452
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Dark Ranger: Hunters had Black Arrow for years.

    Necromancer: DKs (theme) and Warlocks (gameplay) cover it.

    Bard: Blizzard has never introduced a Bard hero into Warcraft, ever.
    .
    Does any of this matters when anyone is asking for a class?

    Did Metamorphosis replace the need for demon Hunters? Did Black Arrow ever satisfy the need for Dark Rangers?

    We are addressing two different issues here, and your assertion that abilities satisfy any need or desire for a class is simply your own misguided opinion which no one has ever shared.

    Satisfying the inclusion of Robo Goblins, Pocket Factories and Deth Lazor is the last thing anyone truly cares about. The first and foremost reason to want the class is to be able to fulfill the fantasy of the class. Brewmasters shipped without their ultimate ability, and till this day still don't have it in their spec. No one really bats an eye because the class fantasy is still fully represented.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-24 at 03:25 AM.

  13. #3453
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not off the table. You are, again, making statements of fact when you have absolutely no conclusive evidence for it.
    Hate to break it to you but it has about as much of a chance of happening as the Pirate class does. They're not going to invest literal tens of millions of dollars into building a class that can instead be realized through a spec instead.

    Even Demon Hunter was unique enough to stand on its own. Can you imagine any other class being a glaive wielding, fel-fuelled shapeshifter? Definitely not Warlock, as to make an agi-melee-spec for a cloth class would be crazy.

    As for Dark Ranger? In a Venn diagram sense it has way too much thematic overlap with MM Hunter and what Death Knights can do. Honestly it's more likely that Unholy get reworked to be a bow-wielding ranged plate spec OR sword-caster that can fight from a distance like SV hunter OR Marksmanship finds itself more dark ranger themed abilities.

    Because when the song's been sung there's no way, with conclusive evidence or not, there will ever be a class that can effectively be boiled down to "its a spooky bowman" when there are already 2 "spooky" classes, and 1 "bowman" class.

    case closed get on with your day bud learn to let go
    Eagerly waiting one expansion at a time for the Tinker/Mechanic/Engineer class since 2010

  14. #3454
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The lore of Heroes of the Storm is meaningless when we're discussing the lore of World of Warcraft.
    I hate to break it to you, but Blizzard has been tying the Warcraft elements of HotS to baseline Warcraft lore for quite sometime.

    For example;

    HotS Gazlowe:


    WC3:R Gazlowe:


    How's that statement from Blizzard in regards to WC3:R not being lore coming along?


    Why are you acting like you have less self-awareness than a rock? You literally deal in the most absurd and asinine headcanons, here! You have the headcanon that characters in Warcraft lore lose all their knowledge of a profession the moment they decide to stop practicing said profession! You have the headcanon that the player characters are special super-powered mutants that don't need water, food or sleep to survive!

    And you have the inane arrogance to dismiss my arguments as headcanon?
    You do know that applying real world logic to fantasy or video games is textbook head canon right?


    I don't have to. It's basic logic.
    Basic logic isn't lore.


    Well, I have never seen Mekkatorque being able to loot anything in his mech. Sarcasm aside, you're moving the goalposts. The point is that the engineering profession is capable of building those devices, whereas those you tout as "master tinkers" have never been shown to make anything that the profession cannot.
    This is more head canon. Please stop.


    The canon and lore of the Heroes of the Storm are meaningless, yes.
    Not according to Blizzard who keeps pulling from it for baseline WC lore.


    I have never wrote that World of Warcraft abilities are not canon. You are misrepresenting my argument. This is what I wrote:
    So now we're going to ignore the source of those abilities? Okay.

  15. #3455
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I definitely think you’re going to see some elements of D.va and Torb within the class.
    Overwatch D.Va, Torbjorn, League of Legends Heimerdinger, Maplestory Mechanic and Heroes of the Storm Gazlowe are pretty much the pillars of why the archetype is so awesome. Pulling elements from all of them to any degree would result in nothing but chaotic, fun, niche gameplay.
    Eagerly waiting one expansion at a time for the Tinker/Mechanic/Engineer class since 2010

  16. #3456
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Does any of this matters when anyone is asking for a class?

    Did Metamorphosis replace the need for demon Hunters? Did Black Arrow ever satisfy the need for Dark Rangers?
    Yes to both.

    We are addressing two different issues here, and your assertion that abilities satisfy any need or desire for a class is simply your own misguided opinion which no one has ever shared.
    Blizzard shared it, since we didn't get a DH class until Metamorphosis was completely purged from Warlocks. I'm still shocked there was no Dark Ranger class in Shadowlands. I guess despite the loss of Black Arrow, Hunters still cover it.

  17. #3457
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Blizzard shared it, since we didn't get a DH class until Metamorphosis was completely purged from Warlocks. I'm still shocked there was no Dark Ranger class in Shadowlands. I guess despite the loss of Black Arrow, Hunters still cover it.
    Sure, because it satisfies the DH fantasy.

    DH class comes first, then they take the abilities that reinforce the fantasy and give it to them. No different from DKs getting Death Coil back from Warlocks too.

    It doesn't work the other way around where we only consider classes if the ability doesn't already exist in the game. Two clear examples here - Brewmaster shipped without SEF, and warlocks having Metamorphosis never covered the demand for Demon Hunters, which players want as a full package and not simply as a playable form of some other class.

    Abilities are supplementary to the class fantasy. This is the reason why I don't need to look at WC3 abilities or NPCs or HOTS abilities to recognize that people want Tinkers. The Tinker itself is a strong class fantasy within the game, and even sharing the name with a Vendor or a Pet or anything else doesn't replace this need.

    That's why I am able to recognize the Tinker as Vendor NPCs in WoW. It doesn't really infringe on a class. They are vendors in WoW. That doesn't mean they can't also be a class.

    Tinkers right now are still vendors and trainers. No shame in that. What I disagree with is the idea that any of this _covers_ the need for a new class. That's just silly.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-24 at 03:44 AM.

  18. #3458
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, you misread. All Warcraft games released by Blizzard are canon. If you look at the link, Hearthstone is considered non-canon, and so is HotS. However, Blizzard has stated that they can pull from those non canon sources to influence WoW. Again, we've already seen this happen with HotS abilities trickling into WoW, and Mogul Razdunk being yanked out of the TTRPG and made into a boss in Motherlode.
    Ok so they can pull in the dragonsworn and considering the data mined map from during BfA they can res galakrond

    Woot my dragon knight is coming

    Also didn’t address the whole “can’t drop your class so it’s not a mechanic”

    Anyways DRAGONNNSSSA

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I hate to break it to you, but Blizzard has been tying the Warcraft elements of HotS to baseline Warcraft lore for quite sometime.

    For example;

    HotS Gazlowe:


    WC3:R Gazlowe:


    How's that statement from Blizzard in regards to WC3:R not being lore coming along?




    You do know that applying real world logic to fantasy or video games is textbook head canon right?




    Basic logic isn't lore.




    This is more head canon. Please stop.




    Not according to Blizzard who keeps pulling from it for baseline WC lore.




    So now we're going to ignore the source of those abilities? Okay.
    If blizz is making non-canon to canon then again

    Dragon knight bro we are getting them wooot

  19. #3459
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sure, because it satisfies the DH fantasy.

    DH class comes first, then they take the abilities that reinforce the fantasy and give it to them. No different from DKs getting Death Coil back from Warlocks too.

    It doesn't work the other way around where we only consider classes if the ability doesn't already exist in the game. Two clear examples here - Brewmaster shipped without SEF, and warlocks having Metamorphosis never covered the demand for Demon Hunters, which players want as a full package and not simply as a playable form of some other class.

    You don't know how it works one way or the other, so please don't pretend that you do. The only fact we have in this is that Blizzard removed metamorphosis from Warlocks and then brought in the Demon Hunter class. Warlocks had had metamorphosis in their spell book for years up to that point and they even provided lore to justify it. As for SEF, no it didn't ship with Monks, but it arrived in 5.2, so they more than likely planned to bring it out along with the class, but there was probably technical glitches to work out before hand. Considering how many times it's been reworked and fixed, that's very likely the case.

    I don't see how that invalidates the importance of abilities, since both Demon Hunters and Monks arrived with abilities from WC3.


    Abilities are supplementary to the class fantasy. This is the reason why I don't need to look at WC3 abilities or NPCs or HOTS abilities to recognize that people want Tinkers. The Tinker itself is a strong class fantasy within the game, and even sharing the name with a Vendor or a Pet or anything else doesn't replace this need.
    Without the abilities you have no class fantasy. Look at the situation with Bards for example. No one here can agree exactly what the class fantasy would be because they have no abilities to show what that fantasy is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Ok so they can pull in the dragonsworn and considering the data mined map from during BfA they can res galakrond

    Woot my dragon knight is coming

    Also didn’t address the whole “can’t drop your class so it’s not a mechanic”

    Anyways DRAGONNNSSSA

    - - - Updated - - -
    Alexstrasza, Chromie, Wrathion, Kalecgos, Nefarian, etc. are all lore characters.

    If blizz is making non-canon to canon then again

    Dragon knight bro we are getting them wooot
    Where do you see Dragon Knight anywhere in the history of Warcraft classes or heroes?

  20. #3460
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Alexstrasza, Chromie, Wrathion, Kalecgos, Nefarian, etc. are all lore characters.



    Where do you see Dragon Knight anywhere in the history of Warcraft classes or heroes?

    Im sorry I didn’t know WoW lore stopped progressing after WC3

    I mean it’s not like the dragons have been feeding their power into the HoA
    It’s not like Wrathion took mortals as hard personal guard
    It’s not like he had the idea of making an army to fight the legion then disappeared to go find the dragon isles (island expedition lore)
    I don’t think he would empower mortals to be able to fight the demons and other similar entities and the other aspects wouldn’t go along with it
    “I won’t attack other class concepts” lasted half a page eh?

    Dragons are a race
    Dragon knight is a class

    And with the return of galakrond and the inevitable creation of the infinite (galakrond remains missing from the map that was data mined and the fact nozdormu wasn’t found during BfA and chromie was the stand in)

    Fight dragon fire with dragon fire

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