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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Why, if true, should that mean they should be garbage now?
    it just follows the trend of hero classes prior to reworks , they are top tier for their expansion and one maybe two following ones , then they are brought to normality and they generally suck before they get reworked , was this way for DKs, it's this way for monks and will be this way for DHs

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by valax View Post
    it just follows the trend of hero classes prior to reworks , they are top tier for their expansion and one maybe two following ones , then they are brought to normality and they generally suck before they get reworked , was this way for DKs, it's this way for monks and will be this way for DHs
    That doesn't answer the question though. There is no reason why it should be that way.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    That doesn't answer the question though. There is no reason why it should be that way.
    They clearly don't know where to stand with DHs , the whole class was born in an expansion where borrowed power was the name of the game, and the resulting base class for BFA was meh , good damage but still boring 3 button spam class (dps). SL brought survivability and aoe damage nerfs , the 2 things that made DHs DHs. We are witnessing the low point of the spec now , probably gonna fix it with number tuning and call it an expansion , my bet is a rework coming for havoc next xpac.
    Right now the thing that keeps dhs dps number afloat is kyrian decree with those insane crits , again a borrowed power that has 0 chance of being retained past SL .

  4. #124
    The Lightbringer Draknalor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    That doesn't answer the question though. There is no reason why it should be that way.
    Ofc it shoulden't be.. and it's unfair for the players that picked those classes..

    But it's just the way blizz does things.

    Some classes are just gonna be bad for a couple of expansions at a time..

    Or forever.

  5. #125
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Bro just switch your spec and plans and whole brain and habits around over night because Blizzard decided you suck now, it's as easy as 1-2-3 oh and it's fun and feels good for you too, doesn't it?

  6. #126
    I dunno, I been pugging on M+ 16 and 17 just fine. Longer wait times then BFA for sure but its managable. DPS isn't near my monks 6-7k overall but its a decent 5.5-6. For sure raids are pretty accurate but I'm still getting into the M.raid and downing a few early bosses. The aoe ones I should shine. It's not all doom and gloom i'm saying. If you like the class just put up with it. There are others in similar situations

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsum84 View Post
    I dunno, I been pugging on M+ 16 and 17 just fine. Longer wait times then BFA for sure but its managable. DPS isn't near my monks 6-7k overall but its a decent 5.5-6. For sure raids are pretty accurate but I'm still getting into the M.raid and downing a few early bosses. The aoe ones I should shine. It's not all doom and gloom i'm saying. If you like the class just put up with it. There are others in similar situations
    Good for you, i cant get an invite for a +14 let alone +15 for the life of me. I am capped at all dungeons on+13, doing an average of 4.5-5.5k DPS (depending on grp) and i think we are really fine in m+, its just that with all those DPS charts ppl think we are total trash. It really does suck to be a DH right now unless you have a static grp/friends to play with.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsum84 View Post
    I dunno, I been pugging on M+ 16 and 17 just fine. Longer wait times then BFA for sure but its managable. DPS isn't near my monks 6-7k overall but its a decent 5.5-6. For sure raids are pretty accurate but I'm still getting into the M.raid and downing a few early bosses. The aoe ones I should shine. It's not all doom and gloom i'm saying. If you like the class just put up with it. There are others in similar situations
    So you're telling me that waiting 1-2-3 hours for invite in a +16 is not doom and gloom?
    that i have higher chances in getting a decent guild if i reroll any fotm and gear them and clear hc with a pug rather than finding one with havoc is not doom and gloom?
    what the hell is doom and gloom then?
    the only invites i've gotten this week have been from 1k scores, people that play better will 99% of the time refuse me.
    hell i've been refused this week when i wanted to do my weeklies, 4x 14-15 with 1.3k+ and i still got denied alot.
    you're either bullshiting/high ilvl/queing with fotm/lucky.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by unlockedz View Post
    So you're telling me that waiting 1-2-3 hours for invite in a +16 is not doom and gloom?
    that i have higher chances in getting a decent guild if i reroll any fotm and gear them and clear hc with a pug rather than finding one with havoc is not doom and gloom?
    what the hell is doom and gloom then?
    the only invites i've gotten this week have been from 1k scores, people that play better will 99% of the time refuse me.
    hell i've been refused this week when i wanted to do my weeklies, 4x 14-15 with 1.3k+ and i still got denied alot.
    you're either bullshiting/high ilvl/queing with fotm/lucky.
    Class stacking was almost never a thing in M+. Since Vengeance is the best tank of this expansion BY FAR, you would obviously have harder time getting into a group as a SECOND demon hunter.

  10. #130
    I'm saying that my wait times are about 15-30 min. And again it's been longer then my 2-5 min BFA queue's. I also don't speak for everyone but in my case it hasn't been that bad. I pug nearly 90% as NF Havoc io: https://raider.io/characters/us/illidan/Donnolla

    I'm just trying to give hope. I started from 0 and I grinded it out, it can be done.

  11. #131
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Why, if true, should that mean they should be garbage now?
    Honestly, to a certain extent, yes.

    However, they aren't "garbage". Survival Hunter has been garbage in raids for 3 expansions now (i.e. since they were made into melee). Garbage means at or near the actual bottom...like 21 thru 24 (Survival Hunter is 23rd out of 24 overall). Overall, DH is 16th out of 24 which is better than, for example, Frost Mage has been for nearly all of the past 3 expansions.

    In consideration of the fact that Havok is the easiest spec to play (I've played them all, and even BM Hunter has more to it than Havok DH), it has always been annoying to see them as high as they've been for the first 2 expansions of its existence.

    There are multiple specs that have regularly been at the bottom for multiple expansions in a row. You are complaining that DH is only very slightly below, for example, Frost Mage when this is the one of the highest (if not, the highest) Frost Mage has been for 3 expansions.

    Suck it up buttercup.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Honestly, to a certain extent, yes.

    However, they aren't "garbage". Survival Hunter has been garbage in raids for 3 expansions now (i.e. since they were made into melee). Garbage means at or near the actual bottom...like 21 thru 24 (Survival Hunter is 23rd out of 24 overall). Overall, DH is 16th out of 24 which is better than, for example, Frost Mage has been for nearly all of the past 3 expansions.

    In consideration of the fact that Havok is the easiest spec to play (I've played them all, and even BM Hunter has more to it than Havok DH), it has always been annoying to see them as high as they've been for the first 2 expansions of its existence.

    There are multiple specs that have regularly been at the bottom for multiple expansions in a row. You are complaining that DH is only very slightly below, for example, Frost Mage when this is the one of the highest (if not, the highest) Frost Mage has been for 3 expansions.

    Suck it up buttercup.
    There's no issue with a class doing well and is easy to play. There has to be an entry point for people. It'll automatically sort itself out when people limit how many they have of x class, and how many they allow on pugs.

    Mind, doesn't mean they have to be at the top, and I don't think they were either.

    And no need to be condescending mate, I don't even play DH anymore. I can still have an opinion though.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    There's no issue with a class doing well and is easy to play.
    Oh but there's DEFINITELY an issue. If the class that is easy to play is also doing better than other classes, then there's no incentive to play harder classes, unless they bring some insanely useful utility.
    Classes that are easy to play, should always perform around average. And this is where DHs are now, they are average, not really bottom.

    At the end of the day, DHs will always be valued. They have good damage profile, magic damage debuff, good AOE stun, ranged kick, dispel, AOE avoidance. Finding a group should not be hard, especially if vengeance will get a couple of nerfs sometime soon.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitinariy View Post
    Oh but there's DEFINITELY an issue. If the class that is easy to play is also doing better than other classes, then there's no incentive to play harder classes, unless they bring some insanely useful utility.
    Classes that are easy to play, should always perform around average. And this is where DHs are now, they are average, not really bottom.

    At the end of the day, DHs will always be valued. They have good damage profile, magic damage debuff, good AOE stun, ranged kick, dispel, AOE avoidance. Finding a group should not be hard, especially if vengeance will get a couple of nerfs sometime soon.

    Never got this logic of it should be bad/average if its easy to play.. No it should not be. Classes and specs should be as equal as possible in terms of output in all content. DH is not average right now in all content. Havoc in PVP is a meme and only propped up by "the hunt" covenant ability. In PVE raids DH sucks. Yes in part this is due to raid design and many fights being ST and melee unfriendly (point still stands we suck in raids). In m+ we are doing fine but often not taken in higher end groups due to Vengeance being meta and others bringing better utility and sometimes damage (especially on boss week).

    What's the incentive to play a harder or another class you ask? Here are a few. Utility, diversity, trying something new, a challenge, fun, you don't like DH etc etc...

    Even if DH was top DPS beating everything you would still not see a raid full of them. DK for example right now is top tier and tbh its almost as easy if not just as easy as DH and you don't see a raid filled with even half DK's just a few at most. At least not organised guild raids.

    No one is asking for DH to be at the top of damage, only for them to actually be competitive. It needs a buff to single target damage and some survivability for PVP.

    Vengeance probs wont see that many nerfs, its only really doing nuts damage due to the whole kyrian sigil thing (probs what gets hit if anything). In m+ its only really king due to being able to yeet away from danger and having ok short term survivability when it can't. Nerfing the kyrian thing to control the damage output would probably be enough.

    Nerfing survivability wont do much if anything at all when the aim of the game is just run and not take damage in the first place. If you are taking no damage mitigation wont really matter. Our ability to mitigate is not over the top, druids probably have it more easy just they cant yeet away like us. Blizzard could nerf threat gen making DH have to face tank more but forcing a class designed to not face tank to do it would cause issues (see BFA vengeance with mitigation gaps, and aggro issues it was not fun.) Maybe if they sorted the gaps in mitigation and stopped propping the spec up with borrowed power things would be different.

    The reason Veng is mostly showing up in raids is not due to us being super solid mitigation gods ether, its due to havoc being so bad and needing to cover the buff DH bring. Vengeance allows the raid to have the DH buff and give a DPS spot to a ranged class that the fights favour. Vengeance also does really decent damage due to the kyrian thing so its kinda a no brainer bringing one. If the damage got nerfed from Vengeance and havoc become somewhat desirable I would expect to see far less vengeance tanks in raids. You also just get allot of Vengeance tanks in raids due to allot of tanks just wanting to be FOTM in m+ so more people playing them.

    Personally i don't have issues with groups due to being in a guild but i know and see many that do have issues and it must suck. Shafted in PVE Raids no one wants havoc due to low damage, fights liking ranged, shafted in m+ because vengeance brings the buff, bring someone else with utility especially on single target boss weeks, and shafted in PvP because they drop in a mini burst window like they are nothing.

    The only place havoc can really shine is M+ and it wont get a spot due to its off spec already being in the group. That just sucks and its mostly just down to encounter design/survivability. DH could be kinda fine if the encounters were designed better. If they can buff Single target without increasing AOE to much it would go a long way to restoring some viability.
    Last edited by Stacie; 2021-01-28 at 03:10 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitinariy View Post
    Class stacking was almost never a thing in M+. Since Vengeance is the best tank of this expansion BY FAR, you would obviously have harder time getting into a group as a SECOND demon hunter.
    This was also the case with GOD-TIER-BLOOD-DKs for M+. If the DPS specs are midle-of-the-pack and not broken, you will of course have a hard time to get into groups if 90% are with the same class as the tank.

    If DK players could deal with it for 2 expansions back2back, you might learn to deal with it too or just reroll to the FOTM and enjoy your time as hunter.
    -

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    Maybe in sub 1k guilds sure, but in proper guilds? Nah, well mostly because proper guilds don't usually even run havoc dh.

    But you were trolling probably anyway.
    I never understood this.

    Top guilds don't care what class is on top. They just take it. That's why every member has multiple alts and can play multiple specs.

    In top guilds you aren't a Guardian druid. You are a tank that can play all 6 tank specs perfectly and just switch to whatever is needed in the moment.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Bro just switch your spec and plans and whole brain and habits around over night because Blizzard decided you suck now, it's as easy as 1-2-3 oh and it's fun and feels good for you too, doesn't it?
    Well it's either that, pretend your spec isn't shit, or whinge on MMOC.

    Obviously it's not great that Blizzard allows a couple of specs per expansion to sit way below the rest of the pack, but if your spec is one of them and you want to perform, only a complete moron would keep playing that spec.

    The fundamentals of every single DPS spec in this game are roughly identical. A decent DPS player should be able to play any DPS spec to a reasonable standard pretty much straight away; after that it's just a case of building the advanced rotational stuff and fight specific optimisations on top.

    I legit don't understand why people have such a huge problem with swapping specs. If you're good enough to approach your sim DPS, which is literally the only time the theoretical maximum output of your class is even relevant to you, you should be good enough to flex to a better DPS spec without too much trouble. If your DPS is pretty shit no matter what you're playing, you have bigger problems than what your class can theoretically output under ideal conditions.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Stacie View Post
    Never got this logic of it should be bad/average if its easy to play.. No it should not be. Classes and specs should be as equal as possible in terms of output in all content. DH is not average right now in all content. Havoc in PVP is a meme and only propped up by "the hunt" covenant ability. In PVE raids DH sucks. Yes in part this is due to raid design and many fights being ST and melee unfriendly (point still stands we suck in raids). In m+ we are doing fine but often not taken in higher end groups due to Vengeance being meta and others bringing better utility and sometimes damage (especially on boss week).

    What's the incentive to play a harder or another class you ask? Here are a few. Utility, diversity, trying something new, a challenge, fun, you don't like DH etc etc...

    Even if DH was top DPS beating everything you would still not see a raid full of them. DK for example right now is top tier and tbh its almost as easy if not just as easy as DH and you don't see a raid filled with even half DK's just a few at most. At least not organised guild raids.

    No one is asking for DH to be at the top of damage, only for them to actually be competitive. It needs a buff to single target damage and some survivability for PVP.
    Why not make every class one button only that has the exact same scaling on the respective primary stat? Perfect balance, only dependant on gear!
    Playing a harder class should average out to the same result. Keyword here is average out. Meaning any player of a spec with low entry barrier and ceiling, like havoc should do better then low skilled players of a spec with high entry barrier and ceiling, but worse than skilled players of said spec.
    Now, less skilled players will maybe avoid specs that require more skill than they have, which results in the logs being skewed. Sadly Warcraftlogs has no way to only view 50percentile logs and below, which would be interesting to see. Maybe Blizz has those logs. Maybe Havoc performs relatively better when played by low skill players and the same on average. We can't see that.

    And yes. Some specs may not be difficult enough to warrant their current standing in the charts. But most that outperfom DH certainly do. Just try to play an Affliction Warlock. I've never seen a class that has to handle 8 different Dots or debuffs (9 if you count curses) simultaniously to achieve maximum damage. It's pretty stressful, even on single target, not to mention multiple targets.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Why not make every class one button only that has the exact same scaling on the respective primary stat? Perfect balance, only dependant on gear!
    Playing a harder class should average out to the same result. Keyword here is average out. Meaning any player of a spec with low entry barrier and ceiling, like havoc should do better then low skilled players of a spec with high entry barrier and ceiling, but worse than skilled players of said spec.
    Now, less skilled players will maybe avoid specs that require more skill than they have, which results in the logs being skewed. Sadly Warcraftlogs has no way to only view 50percentile logs and below, which would be interesting to see. Maybe Blizz has those logs. Maybe Havoc performs relatively better when played by low skill players and the same on average. We can't see that.

    And yes. Some specs may not be difficult enough to warrant their current standing in the charts. But most that outperfom DH certainly do. Just try to play an Affliction Warlock. I've never seen a class that has to handle 8 different Dots or debuffs (9 if you count curses) simultaniously to achieve maximum damage. It's pretty stressful, even on single target, not to mention multiple targets.

    How balanced the low end is, is irrelevant! If you have a bunch of people mashing buttons incorrectly i am sure the DH's will be at the top of the logs yes! But why does that matter? You don't balance the game around incorrect gameplay you can't. You balance assuming people are hitting buttons somewhat correctly as really that's the only way you can. (unless you do make everything a boring 1 button spec or the exact same just a different name, no diversity, no fun, never going to happen.)

    Yep low end the easy to play specs will do well, that's to be expected it's always going to be like that. Higher end it should even out where if people are hitting stuff correct they are somewhat level on the logs regardless how easy/hard the class they are playing is.

    I actually think this is healthy for the game also, as if people see a DH doing well low end they will try play better and catch up. This is part of the fun low end I'm guessing for most? (its been many years, but i remember when i was learning to play the game my goal was always to try match/beat the top dps in the raid and better myself as a player.)

    People being able to catch up via learning is important and all part of the fun. If that 1 button meme class can never catch up whats the fun/point in playing it? The same goes for if your a complex spec that can never catch up because the 1 button spec is to strong.

    The gap between the top and bottom is huge its not only a few %. Someone always has to be top and someone has to be bottom it will never be perfect. But ideally the top and bottom should be within a few % of each other and able to trade blows during the raid though good and bad play. This does not happen with DH right now. Its easy to play but will never get to the top when played well unless everyone else is playing so poorly they might as well stick to LFR/World Quests. Its just not competitive.

    And with something like affliction i don't think its that bad to play once you get used to it its auto pilot like most the other specs in game. Only thing is you can play DH as perfect as possible and still come in behind one playing average. :/

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Stacie View Post
    How balanced the low end is, is irrelevant! If you have a bunch of people mashing buttons incorrectly i am sure the DH's will be at the top of the logs yes! But why does that matter? You don't balance the game around incorrect gameplay you can't. You balance assuming people are hitting buttons somewhat correctly as really that's the only way you can. (unless you do make everything a boring 1 button spec or the exact same just a different name, no diversity, no fun, never going to happen.)

    Yep low end the easy to play specs will do well, that's to be expected it's always going to be like that. Higher end it should even out where if people are hitting stuff correct they are somewhat level on the logs regardless how easy/hard the class they are playing is.
    Not quite. Spec should be balanced around the average player. Meaning for the easiest to play spec: top in low end, average in average percentiles and bottom in high end. WoW must not be balanced around the high end (and it is not), since it would then be unbalanced for 90% of players.

    I actually think this is healthy for the game also, as if people see a DH doing well low end they will try play better and catch up. This is part of the fun low end I'm guessing for most? (its been many years, but i remember when i was learning to play the game my goal was always to try match/beat the top dps in the raid and better myself as a player.)


    People being able to catch up via learning is important and all part of the fun. If that 1 button meme class can never catch up whats the fun/point in playing it? The same goes for if your a complex spec that can never catch up because the 1 button spec is to strong.
    Not what's happening in the reality though. That's high end mentality. The exact same thing was said by ghostcrawler about cata heroics and it became apparent since then, that players don't rise up to the challenge. Some do, but most don't. DH's were exactly aimed at those players, that don't want to get better, but have an easy class, that allowed them to concentrate on game mechanics to do content with.

    The gap between the top and bottom is huge its not only a few %. Someone always has to be top and someone has to be bottom it will never be perfect. But ideally the top and bottom should be within a few % of each other and able to trade blows during the raid though good and bad play. This does not happen with DH right now. Its easy to play but will never get to the top when played well unless everyone else is playing so poorly they might as well stick to LFR/World Quests. Its just not competitive.
    Again, that would require all classes to have the same difficulty, because otherwise an easy class would have no good and bad play. And define for me what the difference between a good DH and a bad one actually is.

    And with something like affliction i don't think its that bad to play once you get used to it its auto pilot like most the other specs in game. Only thing is you can play DH as perfect as possible and still come in behind one playing average. :/
    I agree, that's something that should not happen, if we assume the overall skill of DH players is the same as Affliction players. But I think in this case most players that would be bad at Affliction play Destruction right now. And guess what, Destruction is bottom tier in the logs.

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