Warforging was ok, Titanforging wasn't!

[Velerios]

Am i the only one who thinks that Warforging was actually good, but Titanforging was a big piece of crap?

Warforging as in MoP was actually a good system; it allowed you to get a tiny bit of an upgrade here and there. But then blizzard needed to go over the board and introduce Titanforging, making it a whole loot casino where you never could get best in slot!

The biggest issue about Warforging was ironically solved in MoP itself when they introduced it, but later scapped because they wanted to be more of an games a la service (aka let's make it so that the loot carrot never can be reached)

Now we have the other way around; not enough loot because if they increase the loot, too many people would too early be finished. So while i think Titanforging should not exist, Warforging should and blizzard should simply bring back Warforging with Valor Points for Valor gear and Valor upgrades, so that they can actually increase the loot drop chance a tiny bit everywhere. (and buying gear for valor points/honor also have a chance to be warforged)

Only 2 upgrades as we had it in MoP, and you could always upgrade your gear with points, so that if only something non-warforged dropped, you never got a dut, you only needed to use your Valor Points to upgrade your gear.

Is gear more rewarding now yes, but overall is the game so much less rewarding at all. Warforging could solve the issue, but NOT titanforging!

[cparle87]

And then people would go back to complaining about being "FORCED"tm to run content they didn't like, such as dailies, for the currency to upgrade the stuff. What was the going rate back then? 40 dailies per 4/4 upgrade? Also your memory is a bit flawed. We didn't have upgrading until a minor patch after SoO was added, as an incentive to keep running the raid after it was getting a bit old and an offhanded way of nerfing world content.

[Makabreska]

And then people would go back to complaining about being "FORCED"tm to run content they didn't like, such as dailies, for the currency to upgrade the stuff. What was the going rate back then? 40 dailies per 4/4 upgrade? Also your memory is a bit flawed. We didn't have upgrading until a minor patch after SoO was added, as an incentive to keep running the raid after it was getting a bit old and an offhanded way of nerfing world content.

I mean, people now complain they have to do PvP, because you can actually choose what you get there.

[czarek]

None of this. Great vault is great. Titan/war was pure rng on item upgrade no matter u did ultra hard content or were afking bg or were doin wq with same reward ><

[Danuel]

Do we really need another thread about defunct WF mechanic?

[cparle87]

None of this. Great vault is great. Titan/war was pure rng on item upgrade no matter u did ultra hard content or were afking bg or were doin wq with same reward ><

They were really afraid of the whole "there's no content raid or die" thing from WoD so they made it so all content, even the most basic, had the potential to be useful. Which wasn't a bad thing. Sadly they forgot they need to protect their playerbase from their own lack of self control. Same with the AP grind.

[Crionics]

Both were fine. No one person was anymore likely to get Titanforge/Warforge gear than another. It gave a small incentive to run content that otherwise wouldn't have any worthwhile drops for you. If your friends were trying to gear up an alt or a friend who had taken a tier off and wants to catch up wanted to pug a raid than you could tag along and there was the possibility something could drop for you and give you a slight ilvl boost in the process. By demanding WF/TF be removed the player base essentially handicapped itself because people just couldn't stand the idea that someone might get a slight DPS boost over them because of a lucky drop. This whole mindset of "it feels bad when you don't get the RNG" from the player base needs to go away. You should want your guild mates to get WF/TF items because ultimately it helps you out too when you run mythic keys or raids with them.

[Zka]

TF and WF were both great and necessary. Not sure how one can say WF was OK but TF wasn't. They are literally the same thing with a bit of ilvl difference. (WF as an upgrade system is also OK but I prefer the rng version for all drops)

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Both were fine. No one person was anymore likely to get Titanforge/Warforge gear than another. It gave a small incentive to run content that otherwise wouldn't have any worthwhile drops for you. If your friends were trying to gear up an alt or a friend who had taken a tier off and wants to catch up wanted to pug a raid than you could tag along and there was the possibility something could drop for you and give you a slight ilvl boost in the process. By demanding WF/TF be removed the player base essentially handicapped itself because people just couldn't stand the idea that someone might get a slight DPS boost over them because of a lucky drop. This whole mindset of "it feels bad when you don't get the RNG" from the player base needs to go away. You should want your guild mates to get WF/TF items because ultimately it helps you out too when you run mythic keys or raids with them.

Literally this.

[Biomega]

TF and WF were also great and necessary. Not sure how one can say WF was OK but TF wasn't. They are literally the same thing with a bit of ilvl difference.

But the ilvl difference is what matters. It confines the range of content you're doing.

If you're a mythic raider, you shouldn't be encouraged to go do normal raids or WQs just because of the teeny-tiny chance that random trinket might TF to mythic level or whatever. That's a recipe for frustration because it puts people in content that's trivial to them, and so they feel like they're wasting their time.

If instead you confined the range to, say, heroic TFing to mythic level, that's a somewhat different situation. Yes the content is easier, but it's not AS mind-numbingly trivial, and there's also a lot less of it - just heroic raid, instead of heroic, normal, LFR, WQs, everything. It's much easier to repurpose that selection into more meaningful activity, like e.g. alt raids for guildies etc. etc. than it is if you have an entire catalog of content to chew through.

IMO each "tier" of content should only be able to WF up to the next tier - heroic dungeon to M0, M0 to normal raid, normal to heroic, heroic to mythic. Obviously M+ would need to be adjusted with corresponding key levels in some way, with lower caps because it's repeatable content.

[Tradu]

Both were fine. No one person was anymore likely to get Titanforge/Warforge gear than another. It gave a small incentive to run content that otherwise wouldn't have any worthwhile drops for you. If your friends were trying to gear up an alt or a friend who had taken a tier off and wants to catch up wanted to pug a raid than you could tag along and there was the possibility something could drop for you and give you a slight ilvl boost in the process. By demanding WF/TF be removed the player base essentially handicapped itself because people just couldn't stand the idea that someone might get a slight DPS boost over them because of a lucky drop. This whole mindset of "it feels bad when you don't get the RNG" from the player base needs to go away. You should want your guild mates to get WF/TF items because ultimately it helps you out too when you run mythic keys or raids with them.

Never being done with gearing was garbage and content should only reward loot that's appropriate for the difficulty, not randomly roll multiple difficulties higher. That's much better now, even if it does still require doing content I wouldn't necessarily choose to do otherwise.

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TF and WF were both great and necessary. Not sure how one can say WF was OK but TF wasn't. They are literally the same thing with a bit of ilvl difference. (WF as an upgrade system is also OK but I prefer the rng version for all drops)

There was a very clear difference between WF and TF. WF let items get closer to the difficulty just above the one you got it from(but not surpass it), titanforging allowed your loot to randomly roll multiple difficulties higher. Basically WF let you do heroic and randomly get a better heroic item, but never a mythic item. Titanforging let you do heroic(or normal or LFR or a WQ) and get a better than mythic item.

[Toby451]

All I know is M+ is basically dead to me now. I enjoyed farming keys in legion + BfA knowing there was a chance, even if small, that I COULD get an upgrade.


Now I get my 1 weekly key for an extra choice in my box and call it done. I know some people are happy with the removal of titanforge but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it also greatly hurt the replayability of m+ for many people. It is very obvious among my guild and friends. We used to run keys regularly since the legion days. Now people just do one, or none, and thats it. M+ activity has never been this dead so early into a season among my group of friends.


Its not all bad I guess. I have had plenty of extra time to catch up on a few backlog titles. really enjoyed "the gardens between". Would highly recommend that if you enjoy puzzle games.

[Razion]

What was perfect about Warforging was the balance and pacing of it naturally with the seals and the drops from all the sources. I resented valor and reforging and gems and enchants at the same time in Mists because it was too much futzing with gear before you could use it. Warforging, besides the things that weren't it, was as close to perfect as they ever got. (I remember thinking then it could be improved by 3ilv though I don't remember if I wanted it lower or higher.)

I still liked Thunderforging but thought Warforging did it better though I don't remeber why. (Forge on the isle maybe??) I was happy with Titanforging too but Corruption was a disaster.

[Kaver]

And then people would go back to complaining about being "FORCED"tm to run content they didn't like, such as dailies, for the currency to upgrade the stuff. What was the going rate back then? 40 dailies per 4/4 upgrade? Also your memory is a bit flawed. We didn't have upgrading until a minor patch after SoO was added, as an incentive to keep running the raid after it was getting a bit old and an offhanded way of nerfing world content.

If the hypothetical currency dropped from fun content like dungeons and raids then I would happy. But knowing Blizzard they would probably lock it to only be obtainable from the Maw and Torghast to push that content down peoples throats like they did with Horrific Visions.

[cparle87]

If the hypothetical currency dropped from fun content like dungeons and raids then I would happy. But knowing Blizzard they would probably lock it to only be obtainable from the Maw and Torghast to push that content down peoples throats like they did with Horrific Visions.

Be honest. No matter where it dropped from there would be people complaining about being forced. You yourself just did it with your Maw/Torghast/Visions comment. The upgrading the person I quoted to was referring to required 40 dailies to fully upgrade one piece. That was pretty much the equivalent of clearing the map twice. Considering the major "why is anima so hard to get/why am I forced to do WQs" threads I've been seeing this would go over about as well as a lead balloon.

[Redroniksre]

The problem to me with Warforge was it really did not accomplish the same goals as Titanforge. Most of the arguments i see for Warforge but against Titanforge are from Heroic and up players, because they stand to benefit the most, but don't want anyone lower than them getting close to them. Titanforging, while not a perfect system by any means, accomplished making content of all manners potentially rewarding. Sure, there was an obscenely low chance of getting a Mythic item from a World Quest, but it at least meant that someone only doing World Quests may eventually rise further. Not to mention incentivizing playing with friends who do lower level content. Warforge does none of those, and really served no purpose but to act as a slow nerf to Mythic for Heroic raiders.

[Toybox]

I was the only guy in my raidteam during Legion that really liked Warforging/Titanforging. If you're stuck farming a tier for mythic mounts/boosting until the next tier comes out, it's nice having the ability to maybe get something special.

It never bothered me seeing other people get lucky either, & the whole "LfR dOeSnT dEsErVe a MYTHIC iLvL cHaNcE!!!2!2121!" thing was nonsense, as it never affected anyone negatively. Yes there was that one guy who got a 925 Draught of Souls for LFR, so what? He probably never got an item anywhere near that again, as such luck was super few & far between.

I came back to raiding last tier, & after getting BiS from Nyalotha M, farming the same old raid over and over again with nothing but gold to be gained from boosting and/or mounts for guildies/friends? Kinda boring if you ask me.

[Todesbote]

RNG in loot to add excitement is good as long as players have the ability to counteract bad luck with putting in more effort. Perfect example in SL: sockets. You are happy when you get an item that is already socketed but if you don't there is always the option to work towards getting that socket by putting in some effort in the Maw.

I voted Warforging + Valor upgrades because that is basically the same concept. RNG + a way to work towards the same result if you are unlucky.

[Tradu]

I was the only guy in my raidteam during Legion that really liked Warforging/Titanforging. If you're stuck farming a tier for mythic mounts/boosting until the next tier comes out, it's nice having the ability to maybe get something special.

It never bothered me seeing other people get lucky either, & the whole "LfR dOeSnT dEsErVe a MYTHIC iLvL cHaNcE!!!2!2121!" thing was nonsense, as it never affected anyone negatively. Yes there was that one guy who got a 925 Draught of Souls for LFR, so what? He probably never got an item anywhere near that again, as such luck was super few & far between.

I came back to raiding last tier, & after getting BiS from Nyalotha M, farming the same old raid over and over again with nothing but gold to be gained from boosting and/or mounts for guildies/friends? Kinda boring if you ask me.

It doesn't matter, he shouldn't have gotten that item in the first place. If he wanted that item(at 910, there was no reason for 925 to even exist), he should've done mythic.

[Toybox]

It doesn't matter, he shouldn't have gotten that item in the first place. If he wanted that item(at 910, there was no reason for 925 to even exist), he should've done mythic.

No different to someone getting a 226 piece for doing a 14, no? I don't know, I always found it quite hype when a guildy or I snagged an iLvl cap item, & if someone raiding LFR/normal or even doing world quests was pleasantly surprised by randomly getting an upgrade then hey, that's pretty cool for them, & has no affect on me whatsoever. What does have an affect on me though is months of farm raiding with nothing to gain whatsoever

[rrayy]

Both were fine. No one person was anymore likely to get Titanforge/Warforge gear than another. It gave a small incentive to run content that otherwise wouldn't have any worthwhile drops for you. If your friends were trying to gear up an alt or a friend who had taken a tier off and wants to catch up wanted to pug a raid than you could tag along and there was the possibility something could drop for you and give you a slight ilvl boost in the process. By demanding WF/TF be removed the player base essentially handicapped itself because people just couldn't stand the idea that someone might get a slight DPS boost over them because of a lucky drop. This whole mindset of "it feels bad when you don't get the RNG" from the player base needs to go away. You should want your guild mates to get WF/TF items because ultimately it helps you out too when you run mythic keys or raids with them.

Exactly. It is "Special Snowflake" Syndrone. PLayers don't want anyone who they consider to be a lesser player getting beter gear than them. If they were always getting the TF they wanted, they wouldn't be complaining one bit. That are only complaining because they got unlucky. Case in point:

It doesn't matter, he shouldn't have gotten that item in the first place. If he wanted that item(at 910, there was no reason for 925 to even exist), he should've done mythic.

NO, he was fine getting that one piece. Those that run the content will get a whole set of those drops. There is zero wrong with someone getting lucky to have one piece.

That said, the fix to TF was easy. Keep it to open world content only and only allow TF to go to the ILvL of a normal raid drop. No sockets either. That way Mythic dungeon and raid gear are always superior. But this is another example of Ion's complete inability to understand what a "happy medium" is.