Can we expect a classic version of every expansion at some point?

[Mightytasty]

That’s funny because heroics were nerfed right before subs started to fall. Also, maybe the raids werent bad themselves, but the actual bones of the game just fell apart (especially with how they instantly turned pvp into a never ending fight meta by buffing the fuck out of health and defensives but not compensating it with damage similar to tbc-wrath).

I’m just saying, if you are looking for any actual evidence of which expansion is worse, I would stay away from any objective stats if you’re planning on defending cata.

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Yup lol seriously just skip it you aren’t fixing that xpac. The ONLY thing I liked about wod was the gearing system for pvp

I will say... WoD leveling, having done it again recently, is the best out of any expac imo.

[Jinthar]

I feel that the cut off should be WOTLK

[Mosha]

Sub numbers dropped in Q1 which cannot be attributed solely to heroic nerfs. The nerfs were implemented on February 8th 2011, whereas the quarter ends in March, there was not droves of people that I seen that left in 1 month, it was gradual over the period. I would even argue the majority was in the first 1-2 months, as that's normally when people decide whether they like the game and if they want to put the effort in to continue and progress. Not to mention all the hate threads on this and other websites that popped up near instantaneously after people started getting their teeth into heroics.

I’m pointing out the flaws in the argument that you presented. You were trying to use the sub count graph in order to somehow say people were just use to steam rolling through content so when they were challenged they decided to quit, which I’m pointing out to you is hilarious because the sub count started to drop only after they made the game easier.

I’m not trying to correlate anything here, I’m pointing out the nonsense you’re spewing is going in the exact opposite direction of what you think the data is showing.

PvP wasn't like that to start with as a whole, it was a shitshow due to tweaks needing to be made to classes such as Rets and Warrs as wings and Reck/Deadly calm respectively were overpowered as hell, granted they probably went a bit overboard on this, but that's the same with the start of any expac. It was just as bursty towards the end (Sub Rogues with Vial anyone?).

I’m not talking about any certain period of time in cata, just cata in general. They ruined the game from so many angles it’s not like everyone just decided to blame raiding for whatever reason and call it a bad expansion. I’m explaining that it was all over the map how bad they ruined it.

Which expansion is "worse" is subjective. For me, Cata was awesome in terms of gameplay and content. I was unemployed and played all elements like a madman, which says a lot. Class improvements and balance were so much better, imo, and newly implemented designs such as Holy Power and the Moonkin power bar were original and at least took away some rng. I prefer the old world, but I did enjoy the new quests and systems which were more engaging, especially since I liked leveling alts.

Again that’s fine if you think it’s great, no one is arguing that you don’t think it’s great lol. I’m only here telling you that you were trying to use data to push one of your opinions to somehow make cata sound better than wotlk, when in reality any solid, objective data you have on cata should be avoided when you’re talking about how good the expansion was, because it’s always going to make the expansion look bad. Stick to anecdotes.

[TJ]

I’m pointing out the flaws in the argument that you presented. You were trying to use the sub count graph in order to somehow say people were just use to steam rolling through content so when they were challenged they decided to quit, which I’m pointing out to you is hilarious because the sub count started to drop only after they made the game easier.

You haven't pointed out flaws, you're claiming being nerfed was a huge reason in why subs dropped. As I said, Cata was out for nearly 2 months before heroics were nerfed, to say the quarterly fall was only in the last month or so and is largely to this is just drivel. Complaints were out way before this and any person concerned about difficulty was already into raiding. Not to mention who would quit because heroics were nerfed

I’m not trying to correlate anything here, I’m pointing out the nonsense you’re spewing is going in the exact opposite direction of what you think the data is showing.

You can't correlate anything because there's nothing to correlate from what you're saying. I haven't linked any data, and I haven't claimed it showed anything else. I stated my opinion, which has clearly triggered you because you're some sort of bigot I guess.

I’m not talking about any certain period of time in cata, just cata in general. They ruined the game from so many angles it’s not like everyone just decided to blame raiding for whatever reason and call it a bad expansion. I’m explaining that it was all over the map how bad they ruined it.

Ah, ok then. So the whole PvP era of Cata, which changed massively over the expansion and patches, can be summed up to you? Even though the start was completely different to the end in terms of gameplay and burst? Bit of a cop out there, fella. Not to mention pushing your opinion as fact again because of your clear dislike of the expansion.

Again that’s fine if you think it’s great, no one is arguing that you don’t think it’s great lol. I’m only here telling you that you were trying to use data to push one of your opinions to somehow make cata sound better than wotlk, when in reality any solid, objective data you have on cata should be avoided when you’re talking about how good the expansion was, because it’s always going to make the expansion look bad. Stick to anecdotes.

You can tell me what I was trying to do all you want, you're still wrong, though. I know it's hard to accept other people's opinions and that they think different to you, but might want to try it.

The only data you have mentioned is sub numbers, which I didn't provide, nor did I try use to my push my agenda. I said my opinion on the losses, which was generally what was perceived by people at the time and I agreed with. Sub numbers on their own also do not directly compare to game quality, which is the point I think you're trying to make. Cata made a loss, stabilised, and had a growth in the expansion, if the expansion was made to "look bad" then it would be a decline every time.

Oh, and just for info, Wrath is my favourite expac as presented on a previous post from myself:

That's not entirely accurate imo. Cataclysm's starting raids and dungeons were completely solid, some people didn't like the huge increase in difficulty/time for dungeons and left because they were used to spamming aoe abilities and facerolling heroics. Whilst Wrath was my favourite expac, it did have issues with difficulty at times, and some people were too accustomed to that difficulty.

Maybe you should steer away from incorrect assumptions.

[Mosha]

You haven't pointed out flaws, you're claiming being nerfed was a huge reason in why subs dropped. As I said, Cata was out for nearly 2 months before heroics were nerfed, to say the quarterly fall was only in the last month or so and is largely to this is just drivel. Complaints were out way before this and any person concerned about difficulty was already into raiding. Not to mention who would quit because heroics were nerfed



You can't correlate anything because there's nothing to correlate from what you're saying. I haven't linked any data, and I haven't claimed it showed anything else. I stated my opinion, which has clearly triggered you because you're some sort of bigot I guess.



Ah, ok then. So the whole PvP era of Cata, which changed massively over the expansion and patches, can be summed up to you? Even though the start was completely different to the end in terms of gameplay and burst? Bit of a cop out there, fella. Not to mention pushing your opinion as fact again because of your clear dislike of the expansion.



You can tell me what I was trying to do all you want, you're still wrong, though. I know it's hard to accept other people's opinions and that they think different to you, but might want to try it.

The only data you have mentioned is sub numbers, which I didn't provide, nor did I try use to my push my agenda. I said my opinion on the losses, which was generally what was perceived by people at the time and I agreed with. Sub numbers on their own also do not directly compare to game quality, which is the point I think you're trying to make. Cata made a loss, stabilised, and had a growth in the expansion, if the expansion was made to "look bad" then it would be a decline every time.

Oh, and just for info, Wrath is my favourite expac as presented on a previous post from myself:



Maybe you should steer away from incorrect assumptions.

Yeah I’m not even going to begin wasting my time on this massive wall of text when you prove to me in the very first paragraph that you didn’t comprehend a single thing I said.

I never said that nerfs to heroics brought the decrease in subs, I even specifically told you this in my last post. I was specifically pointing out the flaw in YOUR argument in how you were trying to correlate data to why subs dropped.

Sorry but come back when you read what I said and at least attempted to comprehend it besides responding out of emotion.

[dope_danny]

I think it ends with wrath. Not only does that wrap it up nicely as a "the warcraft 3 trilogy" of wow releases but that transitions into the cata revamp with everything after that still in the live game. I think the classic period gets its last hurrah with Arthas. Without Covid messing with schedules i wouldn't be that surprised if they would have years back wanted the end of shadowlands and the start of wrath classic to happen at the same time for a thematic full circle moment.

[TJ]

Yeah I’m not even going to begin wasting my time on this massive wall of text when you prove to me in the very first paragraph that you didn’t comprehend a single thing I said.

I never said that nerfs to heroics brought the decrease in subs, I even specifically told you this in my last post. I was specifically pointing out the flaw in YOUR argument in how you were trying to correlate data to why subs dropped.

Sorry but come back when you read what I said and at least attempted to comprehend it besides responding out of emotion.

Ok bro.

I’m pointing out the flaws in the argument that you presented. You were trying to use the sub count graph in order to somehow say people were just use to steam rolling through content so when they were challenged they decided to quit, which I’m pointing out to you is hilarious because the sub count started to drop only after they made the game easier.

because the sub count started to drop only after they made the game easier.

only after they made the game easier.

[Mosha]

Ok bro.

For the very last time, you were pointing out that subs dropped in cata because you thought that people just loved the face roll of wrath and people started quitting because it was “too hard”.

I pointed out they only started leaving after they were nerfed. I’m not attempting to say they left because of the nerf, I’m pointing out your argument that they left because it was too hard is just simply incorrect and quit honestly, stupid.

If you still can’t comprehend this, then idk what to tell you.

Quote from yourself in context of subs dropping after cata:

You say this like it's compelling evidence about the quality of the game, when really I think it was mainly because people were so accustomed to facerolling through Wrath. So when they were presented with challenging Heroics (which were also damn fun) they couldn't handle it.

[TJ]

For the very last time, you were pointing out that subs dropped in cata because you thought that people just loved the face roll of wrath and people started quitting because it was “too hard”.

I pointed out they only started leaving after they were nerfed. I’m not attempting to say they left because of the nerf, I’m pointing out your argument that they left because it was too hard is just simply incorrect and quit honestly, stupid.

If you still can’t comprehend this, then idk what to tell you.

Quote from yourself in context of subs dropping after cata:

Ah, it's my comprehension that's lacking? Glad that's cleared up.

[Mosha]

Ah, it's my comprehension that's lacking? Glad that's cleared up.

Yes it unironically is, if there is anything else you need help with just let me know.

[Athredas]

The big chunk of Classic hype was to experience Azeroth as it once was, Cata and onwards is pretty much still current retail so there is no point in redoing anything above WotLK. You could argue that MoP could have a high demand these days but that's about it.

[Rageadon]

Stop at wotlk, thats the end of the golden age of wow, it went downhill from there, cata is the start of modern retail esp mop, and fuck pandaland

[Tsyplenk]

They will do whatever is profitable. People saying that they won't do a certain expac because of x and y need to realise it's all about money, and bringing back an old expansion is much easier than starting a new one from scratch, so the costs are severely decreased. Not sure about Cata/MoP, but demand for Wrath servers is huge. Pretty much a guarantee that Wrath will be with us at some point.

For the very last time, you were pointing out that subs dropped in cata because you thought that people just loved the face roll of wrath and people started quitting because it was “too hard”.

I pointed out they only started leaving after they were nerfed. I’m not attempting to say they left because of the nerf, I’m pointing out your argument that they left because it was too hard is just simply incorrect and quit honestly, stupid.

If you still can’t comprehend this, then idk what to tell you.

Quote from yourself in context of subs dropping after cata:

I'm not saying that the nerfs caused the subs to drop, but the nerfs? The ones that made the game easier? The subs didn't drop until after they happened.

Solid logic. Why would anyone waste their time with your incoherent, contradicting bs.

[Mosha]

They will do whatever is profitable. People saying that they won't do a certain expac because of x and y need to realise it's all about money, and bringing back an old expansion is much easier than starting a new one from scratch, so the costs are severely decreased. Not sure about Cata/MoP, but demand for Wrath servers is huge. Pretty much a guarantee that Wrath will be with us at some point.



I'm not saying that the nerfs caused the subs to drop, but the nerfs? The ones that made the game easier? The subs didn't drop until after they happened.

Solid logic. Why would anyone waste their time with your incoherent, contradicting bs.

Read what I just said. I’m not the one saying that the subs dropped BECAUSE of the changes, I’m just saying that they did drop after the changes.

The guy I’m responding to said that the subs dropped BECAUSE content was too hard, when in reality they didn’t leave until it was all nerfed. Is this forum just filled with highschool dropouts or something? This is super simple to understand.

[Elias01]

No it wasn't the beginning of the downfall. That was cata and the graphs clearly show it...

Yes Grahps show it. Its shows how in WOTLK sub increases completly stoppted and went flat. Yes WOTLK was downfall of WoW and was completly carried by Arthas. LFG, welfare gear, faceroll dungeons and raids. Difficulty levels for raids. No it has too much garbage.

[Freedom]

They should just call all new, fresh Classic servers Classic Classic WoW.

[arkanon]

Stop at wotlk, thats the end of the golden age of wow, it went downhill from there, cata is the start of modern retail esp mop, and fuck pandaland

You didnt like what is commonly considered the "best" expansion? I mean to each their own and all that, im just surprised. What didnt you like about mop compared to say....wrath?

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I'm not saying that the nerfs caused the subs to drop, but the nerfs? The ones that made the game easier? The subs didn't drop until after they happened.

Solid logic. Why would anyone waste their time with your incoherent, contradicting bs.

Someone made a claim that people quit during cata because it was too hard. Someone countered this by pointing out that there isnt really any data to support that claim, and the only data we do have shows that people started leaving AFTER the reduction in difficulty.

The second person is saying that there is clearly a correlation, but they are not claiming causation.

Its quite simple really, to be honest.

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Read what I just said. I’m not the one saying that the subs dropped BECAUSE of the changes, I’m just saying that they did drop after the changes.

The guy I’m responding to said that the subs dropped BECAUSE content was too hard, when in reality they didn’t leave until it was all nerfed. Is this forum just filled with highschool dropouts or something? This is super simple to understand.

Mosha, read my post and see if you agree with my assessment, it might help clear things up.

[Wramp]

I always felt that the strongest, or "classic" era of WoW ended with the end of WotLK and if they are smart, which is up for debate, they will stop with Wrath.

[Mosha]

You didnt like what is commonly considered the "best" expansion? I mean to each their own and all that, im just surprised. What didnt you like about mop compared to say....wrath?

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Someone made a claim that people quit during cata because it was too hard. Someone countered this by pointing out that there isnt really any data to support that claim, and the only data we do have shows that people started leaving AFTER the reduction in difficulty.

The second person is saying that there is clearly a correlation, but they are not claiming causation.

Its quite simple really, to be honest.

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Mosha, read my post and see if you agree with my assessment, it might help clear things up.

Yeah I completely agree, not being condescending but honestly it’s exactly what I said to them 4 times already lol. I am seriously completely confused how this is even being interpreted any other way.

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't want a classic version of most of the expansions after WotLK; I would rather improved versions.

Cata and WoD would be entirely fixed by being a year long rather than two, and by adding the Abyssal Maw and Shattrath raids.
MoP is fixed by making the early dailies less important.
Legion and BFA are fixed by getting rid of Artifact Power.

Also r.e. WotLK, it's a good but flawed expansion, and it's very fun for a casual player, they just dropped the ball on the first raid tier and should've made a new first-tier raid instead of re-using Naxx. World-first Yogg0 and Algalon on a classic WotLK server would be real draws to playing there.

I don't think you understand the concept of Classic. It isn't to fix things that you or anyone else think is wrong with the game. It is to provide a museum piece for fans of the xpac to go back and get a nostalgia hit. No Classic games will have any fixes beyond introduced bugs and improving the user experience against other players. Things that were changed in WoW Classic almost always were in one of those two categories.

I think they will stop with WotLK and they will be largely unchanged.