Warforging was ok, Titanforging wasn't!

[NineSpine]

Me neither.

Luckily, this also isn't true. So I guess we're in the clear.

Mythic raiders are an extremely small percentage of the population, and their net effect on the game seems to be incredibly negative. There is the wasted resources spent designing content for them, the needless gear inflation they cause, and the general way they turn the community into a really toxic min max cesspool.


They are exactly as important as a hard mode boss every patch.

[arkanon]

I'd structure it so that the bosses range from normal to heroic difficulty within a tier and then theres a boss or two, maybe an uldaur style hard mode on a fight or two, that are mythic level.

So you want to eliminate Mythic raids? Because some people are not skilled enough to complete them? Just like you want people to get mythic quality loot for completing world quests?

Im starting to see a pattern here.

[Argorwal]

Mythic raiders are an extremely small percentage of the population, and their net effect on the game seems to be incredibly negative. There is the wasted resources spent designing content for them, the needless gear inflation they cause, and the general way they turn the community into a really toxic min max cesspool.


They are exactly as important as a hard mode boss every patch.

Over 3000 guilds on wowprogress are at least 3/10 mythic.

Compared to 6000 guilds 10/10 heroic.

The people who get early CE are small, but mythic still gets progressed through a ton.

But, a single difficulty also screws everyone else too. If a guild normally has a solid challenge out of heroic now they get half a raid way too easy and only a few bosses as a challenge.

Or those with normal as their challenge now get half a raid and the rest is much too hard.

And all this for what? To save a few item levels?

And typically the higher end players are those writing all the guides, add-one, and simulations that the masses use.

[arkanon]

Over 3000 guilds on wowprogress are at least 3/10 mythic.

Compared to 6000 guilds 10/10 heroic.

Thats a REALLY interesting stat. So half the guilds that full cleared heroic had no interest in moving into mythic, and have completed what they wanted to complete. Good for them! considering there would be a substantial number of guilds who are less than 10/10, i would imagine they are the same - complete their difficulty, feel good, call it a day.

I think this is really healthy for the game - mythic is not for everyone, just like for normal mode guilds, heroic is not for all of them.

Im sure some of those heroic guilds will do some mythic bosses at some stage though.

[Biomega]

Mythic raiders are an extremely small percentage of the population, and their net effect on the game seems to be incredibly negative. There is the wasted resources spent designing content for them, the needless gear inflation they cause, and the general way they turn the community into a really toxic min max cesspool.


They are exactly as important as a hard mode boss every patch.

You're right, we should design everything exclusively around the single largest demographic, and everyone else can either fall in line or give up.

Are you just trolling at this point or do you genuinely believe such an inane notion?

Arcanist's Manasaber is the most common mount among players, so delete all the rest - why waste design space on something that the majority doesn't use?

Rated Battlegrounds? Gone. The majority of players don't do these, and therefore it's wasted design space.

Dwarf race? Sorry, don't need it. Blood Elf is the majority race, everything else is just consuming resources.

[NineSpine]

Over 3000 guilds on wowprogress are at least 3/10 mythic.

Compared to 6000 guilds 10/10 heroic.

The people who get early CE are small, but mythic still gets progressed through a ton.

But, a single difficulty also screws everyone else too. If a guild normally has a solid challenge out of heroic now they get half a raid way too easy and only a few bosses as a challenge.

Or those with normal as their challenge now get half a raid and the rest is much too hard.

And all this for what? To save a few item levels?

And typically the higher end players are those writing all the guides, add-one, and simulations that the masses use.

That's about 75,000 people who are at least at 3/10. That's nothing. That's an insignificant number of players, probably somewhere in the ballpark of 2-3%.

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You're right, we should design everything exclusively around the single largest demographic, and everyone else can either fall in line or give up.

Are you just trolling at this point or do you genuinely believe such an inane notion?

Arcanist's Manasaber is the most common mount among players, so delete all the rest - why waste design space on something that the majority doesn't use?

Rated Battlegrounds? Gone. The majority of players don't do these, and therefore it's wasted design space.

Dwarf race? Sorry, don't need it. Blood Elf is the majority race, everything else is just consuming resources.

Yes, changing a feature to have less difficulty settings is absolutely comparable to removing races from the game.

When your comparisons have to start off so bizarre, you probably arent on the right side.

[Argorwal]

Thats a REALLY interesting stat. So half the guilds that full cleared heroic had no interest in moving into mythic, and have completed what they wanted to complete. Good for them! considering there would be a substantial number of guilds who are less than 10/10, i would imagine they are the same - complete their difficulty, feel good, call it a day.

I think this is really healthy for the game - mythic is not for everyone, just like for normal mode guilds, heroic is not for all of them.

Im sure some of those heroic guilds will do some mythic bosses at some stage though.

Eh, moving to mythic can be tough due to server locks and no flex, things beyond just the difficulty.

Also more guilds have killed mythic shriekwing than heroic Denathrius per wowprogress (by a few hundred, almost equal).

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That's about 75,000 people who are at least at 3/10. That's nothing. That's an insignificant number of players, probably somewhere in the ballpark of 2-3%.

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Yes, changing a feature to have less difficulty settings is absolutely comparable to removing races from the game.

When your comparisons have to start off so bizarre, you probably arent on the right side.

The harder something is the less people do it obviously.

That doesn’t mean gutting it to a single setting is a good idea.

Again, just to save a few item levels?

[Biomega]

Yes, changing a feature to have less difficulty settings is absolutely comparable to removing races from the game.

"Let's delete difficulty settings from the game - but that's not the same as deleting other forms of content in the game, because those are not something I care about."

You're effectively saying PRECISELY the same thing: that people who prefer X should just learn to love Y instead, because there's more people who like Y. Instead of having both X AND Y, which is what we have right now.

And let's be clear: the entire notion of "raiding is purely designed around/for mythic" is almost completely fallacious in the first place. If anything it's the other way round. A lot of mechanics that actually impinge on mythic/competitive raiding exist because of the LOWER levels of raiding.

[arkanon]

That's about 75,000 people who are at least at 3/10. That's nothing. That's an insignificant number of players, probably somewhere in the ballpark of 2-3%.

.

How do you know there are 2.5m players? Do you know something we dont? Is that percentage of overall players, or percentage of people who have at least tried one difficulty? Are you including players who dont have a max level toon? Are you including people who ONLY do LFR? If so, why?

[Uoyredrum]

They were both bad. Being able to upgrade gear yourself is fine, random uncontrollable upgrades are not.

[Thirtyrock]

Both were fine. No one person was anymore likely to get Titanforge/Warforge gear than another. It gave a small incentive to run content that otherwise wouldn't have any worthwhile drops for you. If your friends were trying to gear up an alt or a friend who had taken a tier off and wants to catch up wanted to pug a raid than you could tag along and there was the possibility something could drop for you and give you a slight ilvl boost in the process. By demanding WF/TF be removed the player base essentially handicapped itself because people just couldn't stand the idea that someone might get a slight DPS boost over them because of a lucky drop. This whole mindset of "it feels bad when you don't get the RNG" from the player base needs to go away. You should want your guild mates to get WF/TF items because ultimately it helps you out too when you run mythic keys or raids with them.

No, it felt bad to me because I would NEVER be done. I could always get that +ilvl for the best item. I LIKE gearing to BIS (for my level of content) and then being done. I had the control to NOT keep running everything on the off chance I'd get another few ilvls, but I always felt like I was handicapping myself when I didn't.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I didn't mind random bump with the possibility to upgrade with points later system of MoP. Disliked the rando your heroic gear is as good as mythic gear stuff because the dice fell your way.

[Kaver]

Be honest. No matter where it dropped from there would be people complaining about being forced.

I don't doubt it. But it's a numbers game. The majority of players will most like be happier with currencies tied the core PvE content like dungeons and raids than content like the Maw and Torghast.

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So half the guilds that full cleared heroic had no interest in moving into mythic

He said half had 3/10. There are many more who have 1/10.

Over 3000 guilds on wowprogress are at least 3/10 mythic.

Compared to 6000 guilds 10/10 heroic.

[Stabbyfists]

I was always a fan of Warforging, never titanforging.

The reason being some skill less, but lucky SOB could get full titanforged gear and be more rewarded than a player actually putting in effort going through their logs, identifying mistakes, and working to improve themselves. I literally saw someone doing LFR Guldan, Die at the start of the fight 4 times, ON PURPOSE, and at the end, when we finally killed it, he got a Titanforged Draught of Souls at max ilvl which felt demoralizing to my friend on his warrior who only had a Heroic version at base ilvl. I was on an alt, so I just did LFRs for alts, sadly the guild I was in only could push 4/7 M in Emerald Nightmare, 0/3M Trial of Valor, 5/10m Nighthold, 1/9m Tomb, and 7/10m Antorus because we had recruitment issues through legion, However in BFA I joined a guild that downed Carapace Mythic and had a heroic weekend team but we always felt like Titanforging was a system that rewarded bad, lazy play more than it should have.

Warforging however, 6 item level bonus sometimes, was a fine system, PERFECT in my eyes. It made farm mights feel rewarding if an item Warforged. It also incentivized players to go into harder content because you would hit a gear ceiling and every piece that dropped next tier of raiding would be an upgrade over that item by 7 - 13 ilvls. It was a great system and one I'd hope to return along with another from MoP - Reforging. Reforging did have its issues but it was mainly HIT AND EXPERTISE but they removed those stats ALONG with Reforging which feel's shitty. I mean, It would help fix the issues with raiding and personal loot because OH BOY! I got an item with Mastery and Versatility on my Demon Hunter... well...Mastery isnt that good of a stat, but I can reforge half of it into Haste and this upgrade feels good!

Yes I'd be happy with WARFORGING (The original version) and Reforging to return to the game.

[gobio]

But the ilvl difference is what matters. It confines the range of content you're doing.

If you're a mythic raider, you shouldn't be encouraged to go do normal raids or WQs just because of the teeny-tiny chance that random trinket might TF to mythic level or whatever. That's a recipe for frustration because it puts people in content that's trivial to them, and so they feel like they're wasting their time.

If instead you confined the range to, say, heroic TFing to mythic level, that's a somewhat different situation. Yes the content is easier, but it's not AS mind-numbingly trivial, and there's also a lot less of it - just heroic raid, instead of heroic, normal, LFR, WQs, everything. It's much easier to repurpose that selection into more meaningful activity, like e.g. alt raids for guildies etc. etc. than it is if you have an entire catalog of content to chew through.

IMO each "tier" of content should only be able to WF up to the next tier - heroic dungeon to M0, M0 to normal raid, normal to heroic, heroic to mythic. Obviously M+ would need to be adjusted with corresponding key levels in some way, with lower caps because it's repeatable content.

I you say "If you're a mythic raider, you shouldn't be FORCED to go do normal raids", then I agree with you
But you actually said "If you're a mythic raider, you shouldn't be encouraged to go do normal raids"

What you cannot be encouraged? I disagree, encourage me to do many many more things. Don't force me though.

[Biomega]

I you say "If you're a mythic raider, you shouldn't be FORCED to go do normal raids", then I agree with you
But you actually said "If you're a mythic raider, you shouldn't be encouraged to go do normal raids"

What you cannot be encouraged? I disagree, encourage me to do many many more things. Don't force me though.

Encouraged as in, you're doing this for rewards not for enjoyment. That's what I meant. I don't like to use "forced" because that implies a kind of pressure that's mostly imagined.

[mrgreenthump]

The only time it was fine was in MoP, when you could upgrade the gear to match Thunderforged items later on. Granted I've always benefited from Titanforging, because I play so much.

[s0ul]

I like the current system. We don't need warforging or titanforging. It was a cancerous system and it's rather nice that they finally realized and got rid of it.

[Tarba]

Most of the comments against mop system are weird. An upgraded item was very rare compared to legion/bfa. The main point about mop system was the ability to upgrade the stuff you want with a currency you would obtain normally.

[Crionics]

No, it felt bad to me because I would NEVER be done. I could always get that +ilvl for the best item. I LIKE gearing to BIS (for my level of content) and then being done. I had the control to NOT keep running everything on the off chance I'd get another few ilvls, but I always felt like I was handicapping myself when I didn't.

Personally I loved the fact that I could rerun old content and there was a chance I could receive an upgrade. The odds of WF/TF were low enough that I didn't feel obligated to keep running because I most likely wasn't going to get a TF/WF drop, but if I felt like running the content it was a little bit of an incentive because while it was unlikely it was still possible to receive an upgrade even if you already had everything you needed from a raid.