EA slapped with a €10 million fine by Dutch court

[qwerty123456]

Gonna need proof that the only people they're interested in are addicts. Also, gonna need proof that people who play FIFA are primarily gamblers who are looking to get their fix instead of some incidental cross section of people who have tendencies towards gambling abuse and people who like soccer.


Again, need more proof. Lots of people have fun gambling because they get a rush when they randomly win shit. They get the sense of victory without needing to be good at anything. That's THE REASON for addiction, you know... an endorphin rush. Ergo, they DO do it because it makes them happy.


Again, easy to see and equate if you pay attention and are concerned with this. The only people who don't realize are the people who don't care.

Not the company's fault parents were irresponsible. Stop trying to offload responsibility to others. It's everyones' personal responsibility, period.

Should we refund every person who signs a bad loan contract? Allow everyone who gets buyers remorse over a new car purchase to return it? No. Fucking be an adult and live with your choices.

https://psyarxiv.com/a3kp2/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0213194
https://www.wtsp.com/article/tech/st...1-6adbb5a247e4

Yeah...that system is pure shit. Let us wait until they are of legal age and let them participate in state supported gambling (aka lotteries), in the case of Netherlands the Netherlands Gambling Authority (Kansspelautoriteit, or Ksa) - where odds are a over a million to 1 to win anything.

That then is suddenly not exploitive because..oh....now they are adults....and at 18 they know what they do while at 17 they didn't?

This hypocrisy. We have it in my country too. Government supported gambling with a disclaimer pointing you to self help groups if you are addicted. Oh yeah..and making billions as the biggest legalized drug dealers in the shape of alcohol and tobacco.

Protect minors? I am totally supporting this though. What happens beyond that when minors become adults ...you know...within a day....and are suddenly free to exploit remains disgusting.

Yeah its fucked up how most people are ok with exploiting people if they are adults.

[BeepBoo]

https://psyarxiv.com/a3kp2/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0213194
https://www.wtsp.com/article/tech/st...1-6adbb5a247e4

Which of those goes to which proof? It doesn't particularly matter, because those articles just explain that, yep, loot boxes definitely aren't a good match for "problem gamblers" (nice way of saying the degenerate and reprehensible term addict btw) which we already knew.

None of those show that video game devs specifically target addicts, or target addicts only.
None of those say that no one has fun gambling.

I never said "addicts don't have personal problems with loot boxes." Quite the opposite. However, I'm a fan of giving people enough rope to hang themselves with.

[qwerty123456]

Which of those goes to which proof? It doesn't particularly matter, because those articles just explain that, yep, loot boxes definitely aren't a good match for "problem gamblers" (nice way of saying the degenerate and reprehensible term addict btw) which we already knew.

None of those show that video game devs specifically target addicts, or target addicts only.
None of those say that no one has fun gambling.

I never said "addicts don't have personal problems with loot boxes." Quite the opposite. However, I'm a fan of giving people enough rope to hang themselves with.

Pretty sure you didn't read all three articles in 7 minutes.

Then who do you think they are targeting? I suppose you think F2P games are F2P out of the goodness of their hearts?

Where is your proof that millions of players only buy small amounts of loot boxes and only do it for fun?

[BeepBoo]

Then who do you think they are targeting? I suppose you think F2P games are F2P out of the goodness of their hearts?

They are targeting literally every player who plays their game. They are targeting the entire gaming market. They aren't JUST targeting specifically gambling addicts. That's the point.

Where is your proof that millions of players only buy small amounts of loot boxes and only do it for fun?

I'm not the one who used all-inclusive language. The proportion doesn't matter to me. The fact that there exists some non-zero amount of players who enjoy gambling and/or only buy small amounts of loot boxes is an absolute certainty. FIFA has a player count of 37,600,000. Even if we assume that ALL $1.37 billion in revenue was from loot crate purchases, that's only $38 a player. Not even a full priced game.

[Aleksej89]

10 billion $ would be a much more effective punishment in showing these child gambling exploiters exactly up where they should shove their loot boxes.

[TbouncerT]

Why? Because logic dictates it should stay the same or be even lowered.

lol I am not even sure what to say to this.....you have to be trolling.

Because inflation is a thing? Development costs do not stay the same (why do you think we have these crappy "investors"? hint, it aint cheap)? Outside of indie games, AAA games are borderline equivalent or equal to Movies (as in there are A LOT of people involved, example RDR2). Games are only getting more and more complex as technology gets better. I know there is more to it than I am listing, I am just baffled that you think it's "logical" for games to stay the same or be cheaper (more so this item). I ask you this, why do you think would this be "logical" for games stay the same price or even go cheaper?

[Draknalor186]

10 million?

isen't that something that EA makes per day?

Very insignificant amount to use as "Punishment"

[qwerty123456]

They are targeting literally every player who plays their game. They are targeting the entire gaming market. They aren't JUST targeting specifically gambling addicts. That's the point.


I'm not the one who used all-inclusive language. The proportion doesn't matter to me. The fact that there exists some non-zero amount of players who enjoy gambling and/or only buy small amounts of loot boxes is an absolute certainty. FIFA has a player count of 37,600,000. Even if we assume that ALL $1.37 billion in revenue was from loot crate purchases, that's only $38 a player. Not even a full priced game.

Lets say for a second they didn't intentionally target addicts. After their own data and data from scientists why on earth would they continue to make games with the same mechanics that they knew took fuckloads of money from people if they weren't intentionally targeting them????
Use some common sense dude.

[Aliven]

Yeah those poor people voting with their wallets for what is the biggest "funpay minibuy" scam in the industry that its not only more profitable than most AAA releases but sending the message its the goal all games from big publishers should chase is a crowd that should be lauded as the brave heroes they are and not complete fucking rubes that know better but do it anyway. All those guys who spend 2 grand on "muh feefa innit bruv" every other year can't be the butt of jokes for falling for the most transparent habit forming domapine release hustle since the invention of the strip club. Truly they are wise owls we have much to learn from and deserve respect.

SLippery slope, come back when you have actual argument to talk about.

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lol I am not even sure what to say to this.....you have to be trolling.

Because inflation is a thing? Development costs do not stay the same (why do you think we have these crappy "investors"? hint, it aint cheap)? Outside of indie games, AAA games are borderline equivalent or equal to Movies (as in there are A LOT of people involved, example RDR2). Games are only getting more and more complex as technology gets better. I know there is more to it than I am listing, I am just baffled that you think it's "logical" for games to stay the same or be cheaper (more so this item). I ask you this, why do you think would this be "logical" for games stay the same price or even go cheaper?

Because most of the salles are digital and not physicall. Which was huuuuuge cost. Cost of shipping the game overall stay the same or even went down. Thats why it is logical for the games to stay in the same price or be lowered.

Please, RDR2 is anomaly and not the norm. Look at Bugsnax. Hades. AC Valhalla. Most games dont cost hundreds of milion dollars.

We have lootboxes not because poor publisher cant make ends meet but because of rampant greed and exploitative nature of big companies.

[BeepBoo]

Lets say for a second they didn't intentionally target addicts. After their own data and data from scientists why on earth would they continue to make games with the same mechanics that they knew took fuckloads of money from people if they weren't intentionally targeting them????

You act like addicts are the only people that gamble or pay a lot of money for something...

There are plenty of people who don't gamble regularly but might drop a grand on a video game because they see the value in it. Having things like this lets those people pay more in the chance this is one of those rare instances. Addicted gamblers are compulsive ones who have no restraint. Someone dropping a hundred on a game is more than a normal priced game but still not indicative of addictive behavior.

Price optimization is not taking advantage of addicted gamblers outright. There might be some addicted gamblers that get caught in that umbrella, but that's not necessarily the ENTIRE goal of the system.

If someone has no interest in buying something do you think that item was designed to target them? Jiff isn't trying to appeal to people with peanut allergies.

I have no interest in actually paying for games, but I will pay for them if I must. People have interest in getting their favorite characters, and they'll pay to fulfill that goal if they feel it's #worth.

Use some common sense dude.

Common sense doesn't say the ultimate goal of loot boxes is abusing addicts. That's just a happy coincidence that gets them EVEN MORE money. Your insult is unnecessary.

[qwerty123456]

You act like addicts are the only people that gamble or pay a lot of money for something...

There are plenty of people who don't gamble regularly but might drop a grand on a video game because they see the value in it. Having things like this lets those people pay more in the chance this is one of those rare instances. Addicted gamblers are compulsive ones who have no restraint. Someone dropping a hundred on a game is more than a normal priced game but still not indicative of addictive behavior.

Price optimization is not taking advantage of addicted gamblers outright. There might be some addicted gamblers that get caught in that umbrella, but that's not necessarily the ENTIRE goal of the system.

I have no interest in actually paying for games, but I will pay for them if I must. People have interest in getting their favorite characters, and they'll pay to fulfill that goal if they feel it's #worth.


Common sense doesn't say the ultimate goal of loot boxes is abusing addicts. That's just a happy coincidence that gets them EVEN MORE money. Your insult is unnecessary.

You do realize game companies have usage statistics right? I wish I could remember the name of the video where a game dev is talking about the best way to exploit players cause that would really just end the argument right there.

[Surfd]

You act like addicts are the only people that gamble or pay a lot of money for something...

Common sense doesn't say the ultimate goal of loot boxes is abusing addicts. That's just a happy coincidence that gets them EVEN MORE money. Your insult is unnecessary.

Except that if your games profit model is basically built around loot boxes, then you would be wrong in this case.

Take a look at gatcha gaming (which makes up a legit enormous swath of most RPG style online mobile games). The F2P crowd and the people who drop a casual 5 or 10 bucks a month on the game for premium currency to do more pulls are 100% NOT their target market. Their entire profit structure is hinged around hooking whales with more disposable income than sense. The Gatcha style lootbox gambling of pulls is literally built to hook these people and squeeze them for every penny it can. If the system wasn't designed to prey on the Whales, if those Whales had no reason to keep spending on the games, 90% of the Gatcha Game industry would be bankrupt in a month.

I Play Final Fantasy Brave Exvius (a 4 year old FF gatcha game). I have never dropped a cent on it, but over the years I have watched some of the whales "play". At least half the people in the top 20 of the game's leaderboards on some events are likely dropping a couple hundred bucks a week on the game, minimum. There was a former player who actually posted a fairly lengthy thread in the game's reddit sub about why he had to quit playing: Because he almost lost his wife, kids, job and home to crippling debt after maxing out both his and his wife's credit cards buying virtual crap in a digital game.

When lootboxes (or similar mechanics) became the driving profit model for big chunks of the industry, you can be damn sure that there is an entire department of marketing wonks behind every one of them ensuring they are as predatory as possible to keep that income flowing. And they 100% know that this is going to hit people with addictive behaviour issues hardest. It might not be intentionally targeted solely at them, but the people pushing these types of programs know what kind of effects it will have, and simply don't care.

[KrayZ33]

Are Casino's specifically targeting addicts?
If not, why would the lootbox system be different?

Isn't it more like they target the "feeling" that basically everyone has when they get rare shit out of a % chance.
I'd say the addicts are the bonus, not the other way around.
Most "F2P" players are not "F2P". They actually drop around twice+thrice as much money as they would when it's a standard AAA 60€ game.

[Daedius]

Countries everywhere should be doing this. Fuck the practice of loot boxes.

[deenman]

the sad truth is fines do literaly nothing,companies still win way more in the end,its the same with all kinds of corporations,its more profitable for them to break rules and pay the fine than to actualy follow some rules,like with industrial spilling for example

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Are Casino's specifically targeting addicts?
If not, why would the lootbox system be different?

Isn't it more like they target the "feeling" that basically everyone has when they get rare shit out of a % chance.
I'd say the addicts are the bonus, not the other way around.
Most "F2P" players are not "F2P". They actually drop around twice+thrice as much money as they would when it's a standard AAA 60€ game.

casinos are taxed for it and are not marketed to developing children,some places dont even permit gambling or casinos to even exist,games are a very different situation

[Hellobolis]

All I can say is good riddance. Hopefully more countries start holding EA and other developers to account with legal action, it's time to get this plague out of gaming for good.

If by good riddance you mean lootboxes being disabled or fifa no longer being sold in the Netherlands then sure. Cause that's much more likely to happen than EA making changes to the game. IIRC that's also how it went with CSGO lootboxes: just disable the feature.

small countries can't do shit against big companies like EA.

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Stop wanting others to protect you and start protecting yourself instead by resisting your urges. If you can't, that's on you and you should suffer the consequences of that weakness IMO. Being a victim requires someone to have taken an action against you. They didn't. They simply made an offer and idiot people accepted.

When were talking adults, sure. But last I checked FIFA is rated 3 years and older. Either rate the game 16/18+ or step out of the grey "technically not gambling" area.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Countries everywhere should be doing this. Fuck the practice of loot boxes.

Yeah, it's just as bad as playing at a real Casino. Wait, does Hearthstone have a bit of Loot Box stuff in it? Like, do the card packs count, or no because you can just make some cards? Hmmm

[Lolites]

so theyll go from loot boxes to direct microtransactions, theyll loose few milions, but make it up by making the direct mtx a bit more expensive

[KrayZ33]

casinos are taxed for it and are not marketed to developing children,some places dont even permit gambling or casinos to even exist,games are a very different situation

okay, but what about the question? I don't see the connection between the quote and what you have written.

Casinos don't target addicts because they are taxed? Huh?

[Dezerte]

It's not much, roughly 0.2% of EA's total revenue ($5.5 billion) for 2020. These types of things rarely get fined appropriately.