Why is Vers starting to sim higher than Crit/haste?

[Segus1992]

DR has not always existed on stats, you literally just explained that. Other stats becoming more valuable is not DR, because by definition DR is gaining less from adding the same thing, which you didn't. You gained the same amount of DPS from your 20th point of haste as your 348th point.

They didn't add it in late BfA, they added it with SL, after corruption was already gone.

Yes it has always existed, because that's simply how adding percentage points works. It's not a game mechanic, it's math. That's the biggest deal in deciding what stat is the best, and always has been (barring caps such as hit and haste breakpoints).

I didn't say they added it for Corruption, I said they added it because of it. It showed issues only present with insane stat levels.

[Phookah]

Boy, there sure is a lot of arguing in a thread where the obvious answer is looking at stat weights is pretty worthless.

Sim top gear, equip what it says to equip.

[ellieg]

Boy, there sure is a lot of arguing in a thread where the obvious answer is looking at stat weights is pretty worthless.

Sim top gear, equip what it says to equip.

Its useful for knowing which gems or enchants to get.

Overall I agree. But I feel most ppl sim wrong. They leave it at patchwerk and think those items are the best for all situations, when its only accounting standing still on a single target for 5 mins.

[Tradu]

Yes it has always existed, because that's simply how adding percentage points works. It's not a game mechanic, it's math. That's the biggest deal in deciding what stat is the best, and always has been (barring caps such as hit and haste breakpoints).

I didn't say they added it for Corruption, I said they added it because of it. It showed issues only present with insane stat levels.

You're talking about relative value between stats, which yes, has relative diminishing returns because of how multiplication works. I'm talking about the absolute value of stats, which didn't have DR until SL.

- - - Updated - - -

Its useful for knowing which gems or enchants to get.

Overall I agree. But I feel most ppl sim wrong. They leave it at patchwerk and think those items are the best for all situations, when its only accounting standing still on a single target for 5 mins.

They're not useful for gems/enchants either, because top gear takes care of that.

Leaving it on Patchwerk is a safe bet for people who don't know what they're doing. Once you start deviating from (1 target) Patchwerk, a lot of APLs start to degrade in quality drastically, so you need to know how good your spec's APL is for other situations. Multitarget support is generally decent, as long as it's sustained multitarget. Short lived add waves are not commonly supported, which is why so many specs suggest not using DungeonSlice, as their APL simply hasn't been written to deal with things like targets dying or holding CDs for adds.

[pawu]

What class and specc do you play? And which covenant?

Balance druid and Night Fae

[Kikazz]

Running sims on my character and guild mates, we are finding now that its moving towards Mastery > Versatility > Crit > Haste. Previously it was Master > Haste > Crit > Vers

P.s are there still any decent theorycrafting sites for classes these days?

you are probably with trinkets and procs, haste etc... pushing past breakpoints in some fight styles so to get more benifit from the breakpoints other stats come into effect.

For instance as a balance/resto druid, 34% haste through procs/lust is the juicy point, it gets extra hot/dot ticks depending on the dot/hot,

if you can consisttently hit the 34% or the lower 22% haste bracket, other stats that give those free extra dot ticks or hot ticks, start coming into play more often, so they start becoming more valuable.

also depends on Covenant, i know for a fact that with Balance of All things legendary, and Convoke on a Balance Druid, Verse is a Prioritised Stat behind mastery, where as for Kyrian it is Mastery=Haste > Verse > Crit.

so it depends on soulbinds conduits covenant breakpoints ilvl.

it depends on those factors not neccisarily in that order.

[Keldion]

For anyone mentioning DR, that doesn't start to kick in until 990 haste, 1050 mastery/crit, or 1200 vers, when additional points afterwards will start being valued less. Gear, soulbinds, class abilities, covenant abilites, and conduits all interact together to affect stat valuation, but one other point also bears mention.

Blizzard shrank the gap between versatility and the other stats.


Max level stats in BFA per 1%: 68 Haste, 72 Crit/Mastery, 85 Versatility
Max level stats in SL per 1%: 33 Haste, 35 Crit/Mastery, 40 Versatility

[Packmule]

Balance druid and Night Fae

Odd, with the balance of all things legendary critt loses most of its value, other stats are pretty close

[Tradu]

you are probably with trinkets and procs, haste etc... pushing past breakpoints in some fight styles so to get more benifit from the breakpoints other stats come into effect.

For instance as a balance/resto druid, 34% haste through procs/lust is the juicy point, it gets extra hot/dot ticks depending on the dot/hot,

if you can consisttently hit the 34% or the lower 22% haste bracket, other stats that give those free extra dot ticks or hot ticks, start coming into play more often, so they start becoming more valuable.

also depends on Covenant, i know for a fact that with Balance of All things legendary, and Convoke on a Balance Druid, Verse is a Prioritised Stat behind mastery, where as for Kyrian it is Mastery=Haste > Verse > Crit.

so it depends on soulbinds conduits covenant breakpoints ilvl.

it depends on those factors not neccisarily in that order.

Haste breakpoints for DoT/HoT ticks are not a thing, haven't been since MoP. You just get a partial tick if you let a DoT/HoT expire based on your haste.

[Dreyen]

See if this way, if you do 100dps, 1% crit and 1% haste is +1% dps

If you have 100 dps and 99% crit, you do 199 dps. 1 more crit is 1 more dps for a grand total of 200.
If you have 100 dps, 100% crit, you do 200 dps.. if you add 1% haste, you do 202dps, so +2 dps. Haste juste became twice as good as crit

Now consider you juggle crit mastery haste vers, a stat could technically become 4x stronger, on top of your class' natural affinity towards that stat which make it less or more than 4x

[xero5141]

The only DR you're experiencing is natural DR, nothing to do with Blizzard implementing a softcap to prevent reaching 100%+ haste. Natural DR is simply that when you have 0% Versatility, 1% will increase your damage by exactly 1%, but when you have 20%, 1% will increase your damage by the same amount as it did originally, ie if you had 100 DPS at 0% Versatility it'd give 1 DPS, but 1% Versatility still gives 1 DPS at 120 DPS, when you have 20% Versatility (which is roughly 0.8% damage).

I didn't know vers was calculated off the base and not like a true percentage. Wouldn't this mean that versatility never loses value? I mean, if it's worth it for the first 1 DPS increase, why not the 57th?

[doodle90]

DR works like Verse is worth 1% dmg at 10 rating 1.9% at 20 rating 2.7% at 30 rating etc etc. The more you get the less it gives per stat.

Now lets say crit>verse where 10 crit is =15 verse well as crit starts to DR that point where each gives the same dps starts to get closer and closer until Verse starts giving more dps per point. And with DR on secondary it happens even faster.

10 crit may increase dps by say 1.3% and 20 crit by 2.5% and 30 crit by 3.6% but 40 crit would be lets say 4.5% but 30 crit and 10 Verse would give you 4.6% and so on and so on.

[Zyky]

Running sims on my character and guild mates, we are finding now that its moving towards Mastery > Versatility > Crit > Haste. Previously it was Master > Haste > Crit > Vers

P.s are there still any decent theorycrafting sites for classes these days?

With a last minute change on beta before the game went live, once you cross the 30% secondary threshold(except for Mastery for some specs), you start getting heavier diminishing returns.

[Segus1992]

I didn't know vers was calculated off the base and not like a true percentage. Wouldn't this mean that versatility never loses value? I mean, if it's worth it for the first 1 DPS increase, why not the 57th?

This is how all stats have always worked. My point is that stats don't technically get worse with more, but that others get better. I used Versatility in my example because it's the simplest stat.

[Kumorii]

Boy, there sure is a lot of arguing in a thread where the obvious answer is looking at stat weights is pretty worthless.

Sim top gear, equip what it says to equip.

Lots of "ackchyually" in this thread indeed. Seems silly af to debate if it's technically worse or other stats technically become better... in the end it's the same for the player because stats always have value relative to other stats.

[Cracked]

This is how all stats have always worked. My point is that stats don't technically get worse with more, but that others get better. I used Versatility in my example because it's the simplest stat.

That's called compounding effect, not diminishing returns. DR is when you get so much of something that the marginal value of more is decreased, on its own.

Yes, it's just math, but let's use proper terms.

And yes, stats did have a DR, but it was ridiculously high before, whereas now, it's explicitly low. When you have 99.5% crit, then adding more is obviously not worth much. When you have 300% haste, adding more is obviously not worth much (unless you are a dot class). That's DR.

[Alvito]

Except in Shadowlands there's also actual DR. It's unlikely OP actually hit that already, but it definitely exists.

Even with full mythic raid gear and Stat stacking on each piece it is almost impossible for most specs to hit the 30% dr on a Stat much less 2.

[Segus1992]

That's called compounding effect, not diminishing returns. DR is when you get so much of something that the marginal value of more is decreased, on its own.

Yes, it's just math, but let's use proper terms.

Huh, fair enough. I guess I'll blame that English isn't my first language.

[xero5141]

This is how all stats have always worked. My point is that stats don't technically get worse with more, but that others get better. I used Versatility in my example because it's the simplest stat.

I guess I don't understand how any stat could become more valuable when others are higher. I understand how like more crit could make 1% mastery or vers more effective (more crit procs from your mastery). But if, in this scenario, vers is your top stat, why would crit become more valuable than vers with higher vers levels?

[Segus1992]

I guess I don't understand how any stat could become more valuable when others are higher. I understand how like more crit could make 1% mastery or vers more effective (more crit procs from your mastery). But if, in this scenario, vers is your top stat, why would crit become more valuable than vers with higher vers levels?

100 damage at 0% vers, 1% vers gives 1 damage, ie 1% damage.
120 damage at 20% vers, 1% vers gives 1 damage, ie 1/120 = 0.83% damage.
Meanwhile, 1% crit (if we assume 200% crit damage and no procs from crits) will give 1.2 damage at 120 damage at 0% crit, which is still 1% damage but because the damage is propped up by the 20% versatility, crit looks better in comparison.