Solution for M+ leavers....

[Jin]

Raider Io, every looks at it, w hy not add a line like 'first one to leave' or 'leaver' that counts the person that left the group the first time, anyone leaving after does not count. This way you can see who left a lot and who might just have had a emergency. left; 10 or left; 20 you can tell right away who is a leaver. ( with common sense)

Score

15+
39+
10+

Left

10+

[Specialka]

Raider Io, every looks at it, w hy not add a line like 'first one to leave' or 'leaver' that counts the person that left the group the first time, anyone leaving after does not count. This way you can see who left a lot and who might just have had a emergency. left; 10 or left; 20 you can tell right away who is a leaver. ( with common sense)

Score

15+
39+
10+

Left

10+

Could be an idea if you leave before the key is completed.

[Qnubi]

And I do not see a lot of leavers in my keys, so my advice to those complainings about seeing leavers to a lot of keys if not all keys is ask oneself why ?

Most of the time, the answer is found between the chair and the keyboard. If you improve (not you specifically), you will see less leavers as things will tend to go much more smoothly.

The answer is always found between the chair and the keyboard. The people designing the game also sit there.

My main point was to compare the benefit of timers vs no timer. You only argued that you personally have not a lot of leavers, although that doesn't tell me how many that are. If you have one leaver every 10 dungeons I would still consider that to be many when you play a lot of M+ per week, especially if you go for the 3rd Vault slot on multiple characters. That would be 2 leavers on 2 characters per week on average.

What is your counter argument against having no timers in place? Brute force would be such an issue for you? I already proposed a couple solutions for that to discourage this heal/tank stack behaviour. If you enjoy the potential esports aspect of timers (MDI and such) then I can't really argue against that, because that is a subjective benefit of timers that are driven by competition and as such are viable points.

Like, if somebody tells me he likes timers because he likes to increase his r.io score then I accept that as a good point. Some people derive fun out of this artificial system and that's fine to me.

[Aurora]

The mentality nowadays is to jump ship if a run doesn't go perfect or if you won't make the timer is BS.

Yesterday I had a DPS drop group after 2nd pull because he didn't "like" the way the tank did the pull. We didn't even wipe

I'm seeing things like this happening more and more around 14 keys. A tank leaving on stitchflesh because a hook was missed, groups disbanding after a messy situation on the 2nd pack chained from the first pack on fortified mists, a warrior dps left after killing Ventunax because he didn't like the tanks positioning resulting in his death but not a group wipe, a hunter outright refusing to cc a mob on the tanks request because they didn't feel it was necessary resulting in the tank then refusing to hold aggro.

All recoverable situations to finish on time but why do that when you have the coping and social skills of a peanut and can go nuclear instead. It's becoming draining having to deal with these tantrums over such minor things.

[Ealyssa]

This would all much easyer if people could queue for a specific key if they already completed a previous lvl key.

Queue for +10 plaguefall only if completed +9 in time... for example.

Yeah no, that will just lead to as much randomness as currently.

On of my friend had a SoA 13 he wanted to push to 14+ again last 3 weeks ago. We put a guild group in place, took a PUG rsham and went.
The healer litteraly died 12 times, we did most dungeon without a healer, still timed it (our core guild members are currently pushing 17-19).

Does that trash healer deserve is successful key ? Nope. PUG are just that, random lottery. You can't be certain of what you'll get, you can obviously scan their RIO, their armory, etc. But at the end if you don't know the player, it's still random.

[Specialka]

The answer is always found between the chair and the keyboard. The people designing the game also sit there.

My main point was to compare the benefit of timers vs no timer. You only argued that you personally have not a lot of leavers, although that doesn't tell me how many that are. If you have one leaver every 10 dungeons I would still consider that to be many when you play a lot of M+ per week, especially if you go for the 3rd Vault slot on multiple characters. That would be 2 leavers on 2 characters per week on average.

What is your counter argument against having no timers in place? Brute force would be such an issue for you? I already proposed a couple solutions for that to discourage this heal/tank stack behaviour. If you enjoy the potential esports aspect of timers (MDI and such) then I can't really argue against that, because that is a subjective benefit of timers that are driven by competition and as such are viable points.

Like, if somebody tells me he likes timers because he likes to increase his r.io score then I accept that as a good point. Some people derive fun out of this artificial system and that's fine to me.

Without timers, I would find m+ to be less fun, I like the time constraint that forces you to chew as much as you can but not too much.

In an ideal world, we could have 2 versions of m+, one with timers and one without (which would yield items with less ilvl than with timers). So everyone could have what they want.

So until then, I want the timers to stay.

[Packmule]

Do people honestly believe these days that skill is determined by a rio score? Lollll

Children nowadays makes me laugh and cry at the same time, how pathetic lol

[erifwodahs]

Also, playing with lower skilled individuals that are worse than you does not increase the expected value of your contribution. In a balanced group you will do 20%, no matter the circumstances.

Disagree. Tanks are usually contributing a ton more in "preparing and monitoring" and are still doing 60-70% damage of a DPS role.
Paladin tanks do heavy offhealing too.
This is not to say that it's hard to play tank spec. but the ROLE is certainly most complicated. especially in the pugs. Healer comes close in pugs too. There is a reason why there are like 20 dps for every tank in group finder.

- - - Updated - - -

Do people honestly believe these days that skill is determined by a rio score? Lollll

Children nowadays makes me laugh and cry at the same time, how pathetic lol

Very mature. No one is talking about skill, it's experience... must be hard concept to understand

[Specialka]

Disagree. Tanks are usually contributing a ton more in "preparing and monitoring" and are still doing 60-70% damage of a DPS role.
Paladin tanks do heavy offhealing too.
This is not to say that it's hard to play tank spec. but the ROLE is certainly most complicated. especially in the pugs. Healer comes close in pugs too. There is a reason why there are like 20 dps for every tank in group finder.

Nah, most ppl want to do damage (even in group of pen and paper players, you tend to see more people playing a warrior with a two hand weapon than a bard that will buff you), not because tank role is more complicated (hint, it is not).

[Vasilisa]

Nah, most ppl want to do damage (even in group of pen and paper players, you tend to see more people playing a warrior with a two hand weapon than a bard that will buff you), not because tank role is more complicated (hint, it is not).

Tank role is not complicated (I've been tanking since tbc), it's just not fun that your survival depends on kiting. Thus more ppl then usual prefer to dps and feel meaningful.

[Specialka]

Tank role is not complicated (I've been tanking since tbc), it's just not fun that your survival depends on kiting. Thus more ppl then usual prefer to dps and feel meaningful.

I do agree with you but on the other hand, is it fun to stand in place and literally "tank" the damage just by managing your cds ? At least, with kiting, it is a little "more skilled", though it may be too much required currently.

I did tank for some time, and I found it boring.

[vsb]

The solution is easy, but it has to be implemented by Raider.io website. You need to track keys in time and keys not in time and show that ratio in tooltip. Like 28% of keys in time. So you know that this person was patient enough to complete 72% of keys not in time rather than leaving and you can safely invite her into your chill weekly group. Now if you see something like 80% keys in time, it's a leaver, invite him only if you're interested for in-time run.

[Specialka]

The solution is easy, but it has to be implemented by Raider.io website. You need to track keys in time and keys not in time and show that ratio in tooltip. Like 28% of keys in time. So you know that this person was patient enough to complete 72% of keys not in time rather than leaving and you can safely invite her into your chill weekly group. Now if you see something like 80% keys in time, it's a leaver, invite him only if you're interested for in-time run.

And what if the guy has really 80% of his keys in-time ? What if he is running mostly with premade ?

[Qnubi]

I do agree with you but on the other hand, is it fun to stand in place and literally "tank" the damage just by managing your cds ? At least, with kiting, it is a little "more skilled", though it may be too much required currently.

I did tank for some time, and I found it boring.

In my opinion the problem of the boredom while tanking is, that your survival is so dependent on the healer. You can kite, manage your CDs, at the end of the day you are at the mercy of the healer to survive. While DPS you are 100% in control of everything, sure the tank might do stupid shit and kite the mobs out of your aoe, but for the most part you are in control of your performance. Maybe it would be better if tanks take damage AND manage their own healing. And healers are expected to only heal DPS players or help the tank if he struggles. A difficult act to balance but I personally think Tanks should be all about survival, kiting as a last resort, and obviously minimal dps. Just take the damage and manage that damage. DK and Paladin tank is the most fun tank to play when I choose to do so. They feel the closest to what I think would be good, lots of CDs, lots of self-sustain.

[vsb]

And what if the guy has really 80% of his keys in-time ? What if he is running mostly with premade ?

It's like "what if that guy with 0 rio actually pretty skilled one". It's possible, but unlikely. No metric is perfect, but some metrics are good enough.

[Vasilisa]

I do agree with you but on the other hand, is it fun to stand in place and literally "tank" the damage just by managing your cds ? At least, with kiting, it is a little "more skilled", though it may be too much required currently.

I did tank for some time, and I found it boring.

Different people like different roles That's why there are needed mechanics that make tanking more interesting (adds, positioning, moving out of big aoe - pick your poison). However if my abilities don't matter, all I have to do is to stay away from the mobs - it's not fun.

[Nalam the Venom]

I never leave.. but i understand people that do leave when the group have over 10 deaths before first boss.

[Specialka]

In my opinion the problem of the boredom while tanking is, that your survival is so dependent on the healer. You can kite, manage your CDs, at the end of the day you are at the mercy of the healer to survive. While DPS you are 100% in control of everything, sure the tank might do stupid shit and kite the mobs out of your aoe, but for the most part you are in control of your performance. Maybe it would be better if tanks take damage AND manage their own healing. And healers are expected to only heal DPS players or help the tank if he struggles. A difficult act to balance but I personally think Tanks should be all about survival, kiting as a last resort, and obviously minimal dps. Just take the damage and manage that damage. DK and Paladin tank is the most fun tank to play when I choose to do so. They feel the closest to what I think would be good, lots of CDs, lots of self-sustain.

While I agree with your ideas, now, healers would be complaining that they have nothing to do, or not enough. Granted that a healer is expected to dps when he can do so, most people want to play healer to heal, not dps.

[Qnubi]

While I agree with your ideas, now, healers would be complaining that they have nothing to do, or not enough. Granted that a healer is expected to dps when he can do so, most people want to play healer to heal, not dps.

The culprit is that both tank and healer are essentially doing the same, if the tank takes little damage it takes away fun from the healer, he can't heal. If the healer is good the tank never has to manage any CDs or mitigation. It's a finicky balance act and both roles depend on the other underperforming in a twisted way. If both the tank and healer are good, then that's why we have this meta that healer are expected to DPS. Healing has a limit, you are not better by overhealing. A DPS can not really "overdps", so more output is always better as a DPS. Same as a tank, mobs have finite damage you can take. If you don't take enough damage all your survival tools are useless because there are not needed in that fight. Although currently the tools tanks have are not sufficient and we rely on kiting lol. Which is silly too.

[Specialka]

The culprit is that both tank and healer are essentially doing the same, if the tank takes little damage it takes away fun from the healer, he can't heal. If the healer is good the tank never has to manage any CDs or mitigation. It's a finicky balance act and both roles depend on the other underperforming in a twisted way.

That is why there are unavoidables sources of damage so the healer does not feel useless.

But the balance between the survability of the tank and the healer output is kinda hard to achieve. On one expansion, the tank are immortals, the next one, they need healers to survive.