What's to stop Blizz from using revamped Valor Points

[Algorath]

Hi lads,

I was thinking, there seems to be a voice of discontent regarding loot in the Shadowlands. Not enough drops, the mythic raiding stuff seems underwhelming considering the effort put in, the PVP stuff seems too good and a necessity, etc etc.

Now, I thought of a super simple solution that would help out, and I can't imagine the same idea hasn't been brought up before.

Justice points - Earned in mythic+0 to mythic+10 - Rewards ilvl 200 - uncapped
Valor points - Earned in mythic10+ - Rewards ilvl 220 - capped 550 per week.

By simply adding the same system from PVP into M+, you could have more targeted gear be available. The best of the best players would still have to get their best items from doing all aspects of the game to have that extra edge, which is fine. While Mythic Raiding still would offer the best items in the game, since the effort is higher.

Other than Blizzard denying loot so that we play for longer, I don't see how adding a "conquest point" like system would be bad. I could be wrong though, what do you guys think the pros / cons are of such a system?

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

I would like to see something similar to PvE items we have in PvP. If I take 213 heroic loot from vault it would be nice to able to upgrade it into 226 at some point.
On my PvP alt I'm sitting at 2122 rating and it feels nice to be able to upgrade those lower rated items into 226 ilvl I took from vault when I was at low rating.

On my raiding main I have to take 226 option from vault and skip 213 heroic loot even though it would have best stats.

I feel they just want to slow down gearing speed in PvE since bosses become much more easier with better gear.

[Nalam the Venom]

I would like something like titan residium from BFA, Get a certain amount based on the key cleared each week, and have an option to choose more PvE points rather than stygia.

[Rucati]

It's because they want loot to matter.

People hated warforging/itanforging/corruption because it meant that tons of loot dropped but it was hard to get BiS gear. So this expansion they removed it and made loot more rare so it was still hard to get BiS gear. So here we are.

If they gave you points to buy gear with it you could get a full set of BiS significantly faster which would just lead to there being no reason to do most of the content in the game. Why run m+ for vault loot if you know for a fact it can't be an upgrade? That's why they added warforge/titanforging in to begin with, so that people would have incentive to grind content even after getting the gear from it.

So yeah, it's very safe to say that they will never add anything like Valor Points back in for PvE as it would just speed up the process of people getting bored with the game.

[kamuimac]

Hi lads,

I was thinking, there seems to be a voice of discontent regarding loot in the Shadowlands. Not enough drops, the mythic raiding stuff seems underwhelming considering the effort put in, the PVP stuff seems too good and a necessity, etc etc.

Now, I thought of a super simple solution that would help out, and I can't imagine the same idea hasn't been brought up before.

Justice points - Earned in mythic+0 to mythic+10 - Rewards ilvl 200 - uncapped
Valor points - Earned in mythic10+ - Rewards ilvl 220 - capped 550 per week.

By simply adding the same system from PVP into M+, you could have more targeted gear be available. The best of the best players would still have to get their best items from doing all aspects of the game to have that extra edge, which is fine. While Mythic Raiding still would offer the best items in the game, since the effort is higher.

Other than Blizzard denying loot so that we play for longer, I don't see how adding a "conquest point" like system would be bad. I could be wrong though, what do you guys think the pros / cons are of such a system?

what is stoping them ? stupid ego of Ion .

nothing else

he is butthurt that players hate everything he introduces into game which looks perfect on paper as player metric enhancer but doesnt work in game

seriously this guy should have been long fired . game would be much healthy without him

- - - Updated - - -

It's because they want loot to matter.

People hated warforging/itanforging/corruption because it meant that tons of loot dropped but it was hard to get BiS gear. So this expansion they removed it and made loot more rare so it was still hard to get BiS gear. So here we are.

If they gave you points to buy gear with it you could get a full set of BiS significantly faster which would just lead to there being no reason to do most of the content in the game. Why run m+ for vault loot if you know for a fact it can't be an upgrade? That's why they added warforge/titanforging in to begin with, so that people would have incentive to grind content even after getting the gear from it.

So yeah, it's very safe to say that they will never add anything like Valor Points back in for PvE as it would just speed up the process of people getting bored with the game.

people didnt hate WF/TF

people hated that only way to obtain those was though sheer RNG . and that it was uncapped.

nobody complained about WF in SoO .

what people did complain about was artificial gating on obtaining VP to upgrade gear back then

if it was uncapped like honor in bgs is not to upgrade cp gear then nobody would complain

similiar if people had a way to farm currency to upgrade gear to TF levels nobody would complain

what people did complain what rng - players hate rng - Ion loves rng

untill Ion is fired nothing in pve will change for better

[La]

It's because they want loot to matter.

People hated warforging/itanforging/corruption because it meant that tons of loot dropped but it was hard to get BiS gear. So this expansion they removed it and made loot more rare so it was still hard to get BiS gear. So here we are.

If they gave you points to buy gear with it you could get a full set of BiS significantly faster which would just lead to there being no reason to do most of the content in the game. Why run m+ for vault loot if you know for a fact it can't be an upgrade? That's why they added warforge/titanforging in to begin with, so that people would have incentive to grind content even after getting the gear from it.

So yeah, it's very safe to say that they will never add anything like Valor Points back in for PvE as it would just speed up the process of people getting bored with the game.

But you can fail 4 14's and then knock out the first 3 mythic raid bosses, which aren't that difficult, and you've got 3 easy choices of 226 gear, and you only get more wih time.

Besides, BiS gear outside of trinkets is pretty irrelevant when most of the time you'll be lucky to see any more than a 0.1% increase in your damage per item due to the weakness of secondaries and strength of main stat. I think the problem they created with making loot matter is that you're very often not being directly rewarded for your efforts, and instead are mostly opted into relying on the weekly gamba machine.

Honestly, Blizzard is just clearly having a hard time not upsetting people with how gear drops and the ilvl of it because they created a split in the community due to raiding and M+, so the vault was their solution. Ironically, it lead to both people who play M+ feeling unrewarded and people who mythic raid feeling so, too. Imagine getting nothing all week, logging in on chewsday and pull 2 gloves and a belt that are all terrible. Now you've made that problem even worse.

[Rucati]

But you can fail 4 14's and then knock out the first 3 mythic raid bosses, which aren't that difficult, and you've got 3 easy choices of 226 gear, and you only get more wih time.

Besides, BiS gear outside of trinkets is pretty irrelevant when most of the time you'll be lucky to see any more than a 0.1% increase in your damage per item due to the weakness of secondaries and strength of main stat. I think the problem they created with making loot matter is that you're very often not being directly rewarded for your efforts, and instead are mostly opted into relying on the weekly gamba machine.

Honestly, Blizzard is just clearly having a hard time not upsetting people with how gear drops and the ilvl of it because they created a split in the community due to raiding and M+, so the vault was their solution.

But there's a big difference between doing 4 m+ and 3 mythic raid bosses (which 99% of players will never do) to get 3 completely random pieces of 226 gear and being able to go to a vendor and buy the specific piece of gear you want by just grinding whatever content gives you valor points.

Personally I don't really think they needed to cut back on loot nearly as much as they did. There's no real reason why a +15 can't at least drop heroic ilvl loot, and honestly I think it should scale to +20 instead of capping at 15 to begin with.

Feels like half the community finds it really fun to get a ton of gear like we did in BFA while the other half finds it fun to work really hard and grind 10 dungeons for a single upgrade. So it's basically impossible to make both groups happy because they just want totally different things. I guess maybe the best approach would just be to literally make different servers, instead of PvE and PvP and RP servers just have like High Loot, Low Loot servers and then people could play however they want.

[klaps_05]

Or just copy the pvp gearing system to both m+ and raids, entire gearing system fixed and now you can choose what content to do.

[intenz]

Because it was an idea from the old dev team and implementing it would be a concession that the old team knew best. Same reason there was so much opposition to classic and why you're never going to get pvp balance like the golden years or all those pruned abilities back. Dev ego.

[BeepBoo]

So yeah, it's very safe to say that they will never add anything like Valor Points back in for PvE as it would just speed up the process of people getting bored with the game.

If people get bored the instant after they get that final piece then I'd wager they were just as bored with the game before that point, they just had a goal.

I was bored with college well before I got my degree, but I still stuck it out until I got said degree for obvious reasons. However, I never want my gameplay to be motivated by that type of mentality. I want every moment to be the fun part.

[Darknessvamp]

The fact that Valor Points was a bad system from the perspective of raiders and caused more complaints than praise? The main issue being you would work towards a targeted piece getting your points over more than one week to buy it as it's a foreseeable upgrade only to buy it, run your weekly raid with your new gear and immediately get a piece that dropped that week which complete invalidated your purchase. It was maddening. Justice points were better as they could freely be farmed at any time throughout the week but as soon as you put a weekly hard cap on earning currency for gear that's necessary to improve output in raids only for the raid to then completely invalidate it on week it was earned was terrible.

[xero5141]

On my raiding main I have to take 226 option from vault and skip 213 heroic loot even though it would have best stats.

I don't quite understand this. If it's got better stats, it's an upgrade, why not take it? Unless you're just taking pieces to have ilvl regardless of stats?

[Eli85]

Or just copy the pvp gearing system to both m+ and raids, entire gearing system fixed and now you can choose what content to do.

This is a decent idea on paper, but it falls flat on its face in practical usage. There is absolutely no way around this: the latter bosses in mythic is far, far harder than achieving a high PVP rating or even +20 keys in M+, both from a skill level and organizational perspective. If Blizzard simply allowed you to choose either PvP, M+, or raids to get the highest possible gear, raids would enter an existential crisis because you'd be asking players to do a much, much harder task for the same reward.

The most difficult content in the game must offer the best rewards, or the whole game starts to break down.

[BeepBoo]

The most difficult content in the game must offer the best rewards, or the whole game starts to break down.

False. The most difficult content in the game would still be fine if the audience participating in it was simply just the number of people who wanted to ego stroke or say they did it via some achievement.
Infracted

[Kaver]

If they gave you points to buy gear with it you could get a full set of BiS significantly faster

This is just false. People often make this argument but it completely depends on the maximum cap of the currency and the rate at which you gain it compared to the cost of upgrades. Just to exaggerate: If you gain 1 currency per week lockout and an upgrade 1 million currency then it would take 1 million weeks to gain 1 upgrade. I think you get my point

The current PvP system is a good example of how it could work. They should just make a weekly cap that limits the amount of gear people can get. It's very simple. Nobody is asking for really fast gearing. We just want more control over what gear we get and have some bad luck protection. But it doesn't have to mean that we gain gear significantly faster. It all depends on how they implement the currency.

[Oneirophobia]

False. The most difficult content in the game would still be fine if the audience participating in it was simply just the number of people who wanted to ego stroke or say they did it via some achievement.

Not false, as far back as Ghostcrawler working on WoW they had the "players will rise to the occasion and do difficult content just because they want the challenge." They discovered that the opposite was true, players will always take the path of least resistance and your challenging content sits abandoned. You absolutely have to provide greater rewards to match the greater challenge, this has already been proven repeatedly over the last 16 years.

[BeepBoo]

and your challenging content sits abandoned.

Did it actually sit abandoned, though? Or was it just heavily underutilized compared to what they were hoping?

You absolutely have to provide greater rewards to match the greater challenge, this has already been proven repeatedly over the last 16 years.

Mage tower provided absolutely NOTHING in terms of power and had great player engagement. Yes, it was solo, but for a lot of specs it was easily as hard as mythic raiding. Stick cosmetics in there for all I care.

[exsanguinate]

Cataclysm had the best loot system by far

[clevin]

Hi lads,

I was thinking, there seems to be a voice of discontent regarding loot in the Shadowlands. Not enough drops, the mythic raiding stuff seems underwhelming considering the effort put in, the PVP stuff seems too good and a necessity, etc etc.

Now, I thought of a super simple solution that would help out, and I can't imagine the same idea hasn't been brought up before.

Justice points - Earned in mythic+0 to mythic+10 - Rewards ilvl 200 - uncapped
Valor points - Earned in mythic10+ - Rewards ilvl 220 - capped 550 per week.

In this scenario, Justice Points are worthless. You can already get 197 gear from your covenant campaign and fill in missing slots with honor gear from PVP. So, while another source of 200 gear would not suck, it really doesnt add much as it is.

Instead of that, how about JP as a way to upgrade LFR/M0 loot to 200? I do M0s, I can use JP to move those from184 to 200. Or, of course, I can do keys that reward too level loot or just use the covenant or PVP 197 stuff.

[Myradin]

The fact that Valor Points was a bad system from the perspective of raiders and caused more complaints than praise?

This. People complained all the time back in the day about 'wellfare epics'.

We've now reached a point in time that you actually have to do content and the weakly content is based on what you did as opposed to just being stuff you could buy.

Pretty much every change in wow is based on some group complaining at some point. Ion's ideas on 'fixing things' don't come out of nowehre.