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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Then you are flat-out wrong. Having a finisher choice between "some damage now" (Evsicerate) vs. "more damage later if I have uptime" (SnD) is essential.
    Where did I say you shouldn't have finisher choices? I want more interesting choices. Not a set it and forget it buff that requires 0 thought.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Then you are flat-out wrong. Having a finisher choice between "some damage now" (Evsicerate) vs. "more damage later if I have uptime" (SnD) is essential.
    "choice" thats a good one.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Where did I say you shouldn't have finisher choices? I want more interesting choices. Not a set it and forget it buff that requires 0 thought.
    *Requires 0 thought when tunneling a training dummy with perfect uptime

    Fixed it for you

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alatie View Post
    "choice" thats a good one.
    This is your brain on spreadsheets
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I'm also a developer, but... not with 20 years of experience!

    I rather read the Legion class changes as a total failure of Product Management. It boggles the mind that a group of professionals could sit around and say "yes, let's take this class that has an audience that self-selected towards it for 14 years because of its specific strengths and weaknesses, its specific playstyle, its specific understated and gritty aesthetic... and now let's throw all of that out the window and design it for a completely different audience instead with a dramatically different playstyle and flashy purple particles everywhere.... this is certain to go over well, the players are going to love it, it won't be controversial at all" :^)

    Specifically I think they did a bunch of very general user research about "our players want simpler classes and flashier visual effects and XYZ" and then made the fallacy of concluding "therefore the players who specifically have chosen to play subtlety rogue must also share this preference" when rather they should have appreciated the large differences in the audiences of various specs.

    Yes it's true that they did reference things like encounter designers having to specifically code encounter mechanics to not be affected by grounding totem, smokebomb, etc. But once you've written logic to ignore that ability or mechanic in this special case, it should be encapsulated so that for future boss abilities you design it should be as simple as setting `ignoreGrounding = true`

    Maybe cost saving has been the intention with Legion class design, but has that been the outcome? It seems they spent massively on it (all the new assets, animations, effects, mechanics that had to be coded, etc) and created further expensive design problems that several expansions later they are still digging their way out of.

    And they shifted to the borrowed power system which requires tremendous design and development effort every single expansion, to the point where they recognize they need more changes still to the base classes and don't have the time/money to get that done, because it's all tied up in the new borrowed power. And then they just dumpster all of that borrowed power development effort at the end of the expansion and have to rebuild it all again for the next one. What a hugely inefficient and wasteful approach!

    The alternative would have been: not changing class design much at all, saving huge development resources (time is money, after all), and instead focusing all of their efforts on what players actually wanted post-WoD: more content.

    Thoughts?

    - - - Updated - - -



    /shrug, them's the ropes. I am looking at the long term and I prefer not to make the design of this class even worse than it has already become, just to make us more competitive in the short term. I've stuck with my Rogue since I created it in February 2005, through patches where we dominated and patches where we were just OK or outright bad. When I finally did stop playing retail, it wasn't because of balance problems (Subtlety Rogue has had some very strong arena seasons that I didn't play because I didn't find winning that way to be rewarding) but rather because I don't enjoy the design any longer.

    You're free to disagree and say that short term performance is more important to you than the long term integrity of class design.... but I think it's awfully short sighted if you do. I always try to stay above the rat race of "blizzard pls buff my spec the numbers need to be bigger!!!" and focus on improving my play on a personal level. In PvP, even in the worst seasons for XYZ spec, somebody is out there getting gladiator and R1 titles with it instead of giving up and crying for buffs/nerfs or rerolling like a cowardly fotm dog (and gimping their skill development in doing so when they would have developed higher ratings by sticking with it and growing as a player rather than chasing rating). I really, truly have no respect for fotm rerollers in PvP. Even in the most egregiously balanced seasons where people shot up 500 rating by picking DK in s5 or destro lock in BFA, those players are never going to sniff gladiator again and they forever condemned themselves to mediocrity by picking the easy route instead of pushing past their plateaus and developing as a player.
    your first part i have another opinion, but you have definetely some points there. definetely a good point is all the new combat animations. they wre definetely cost immensive.

    what i also will NEVER understand is the following: wow is a game that is 15 years old and way more rely on long term customers and old school players (that play the same game for 10+ years) than maybe any other game on the market. why in the hell you change stuff so drastically when a big amount of your customers commited themselfes specifically to that things 10 years ago ??? its the easiest way to loose loyal customers. in modern products or modern games this is irelevant, because every day another 15 year old kid is born (15 years ago) and is a potential customer. but wow ? a 15 year old game ? even as product manager or project leader i would NEVER do this. dont get Blizzards reasons here.

    but the borrowed power systems part i wanna comment. exactly borrowed power systems are one of the most cost effective development stuff (besides streamlining classes and recycling content/gfx). its horrible easy and cheap. why? because you only have to design a UI. no combat interaction. no changes in game engine. and EVERYTHING else is just DB entries and a few lines of code. believe me: azerite gear, UI and essences are BRUTALLY cheap in comparisson to „content“.

    thats the reason why since Legion you have a trizillion quests, a order hall or covenants to back this up and a lot of borrowed power systems. its cheap as shit. a dedicated area to design, with no mobs, no interactions and nothing new (heck, when you look at order halls they even reused old sprites) and just a few npcs. and some UI simply changing your DB values, used before putting dmg/heal/tank values into the flowing game engine. all this stuff is completely scalable, maintainable and horrible cheap to produce and to balance and maintain.

    there is no big conspiracy theory out there. wow is simply a 15 year old game in „milk the cow“ mode. and since its still a succesful game and good profitmaker they simply go the cost effective route. thats all. but most ppl/players do not understand this. when working in the same business (i do) for 20+ years, its easy to understand whats going on.

    but thats just me and my opinion. there is always a good chance i am wrong here.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-01-29 at 12:09 AM.

  5. #285
    This is your brain on spreadsheets[/QUOTE]

    Hey who am i to judge if you feel like you have a choice between do i keep it up yes yes and yes you do you

  6. #286
    In the current game, if your specs weakness is too big you just get excluded, it's already difficult pugging mythic+ as an assassination rogue, i don't understand your view atall, writing off glaring spec issues as "them he ropes" is stupid.

    The problem was made worse this expansion by giving classes some godlike covenant abilities while others got scraps, sepsis is a mediocre single target ability that does less damage to 1 target than a hunters wild hunt does, despite wild hunt being an aoe skill.

    "You're free to disagree and say that short term performance is more important to you than the long term integrity of class design"

    I don't understand how making damage output closer between the top specs and bottom specs changes class design, we are already at a point where numbers in PvE can be tuned without affecting PvP, though honestly it's time assassination got some class design changes, having to get rupture and garrote on 3+ targets while maintaining SnD is such a chore for so little return.

    Oh and i'm a pure PvE player and don't care too much how assassination performs in PvP, i get that pvp has a lot more variables in play than pure numbers.

  7. #287
    They threw us a few bones.

    My rogue is Assassin Venthyr so these are both positives for me:

    Assassination
    Cut to the Chase (New) Envenom extends the duration of Slice and Dice by up to 3 sec per combo point spent. Rogue - Assassination Spec. Rogue - Assassination Spec.
    Flagellation
    Lash the target for (50% of Attack power) Shadow damage, causing each combo point spent within 12 sec to lash for an additional (10% of Attack power). Dealing damage with Flagellation increases your Haste by 1%, persisting 12 sec after their torment fades.
    Sounds like a much bigger attack. Without the annoying 2nd half of reactivation.


    Flat out they did the same thing:

    SND > Envenom Refreshes > then they made it passive.

    Needs to be passive again for Assassin.


    Still would prefer some leech aspect of flagellation.

  8. #288
    @Shoe

    So if they added a pvp talent for sub called, "Back In My Day" that when talented reduced MFD cd to 20 sec but it only generates 2 combo points (old premed) and gives you access to gouge and expose armor finisher then rogues would be perfect and the height of big brain thinking skill again? Oh the talent also changes Shadowstrike's name and icon to Ambush.

    Or is it the usual example of I want, old premed, and MFD and gouge and subterfuge with garrote silence and cheapshots for days so I can be crazy OP and have all the dmg? I've played rogue since vanilla and I'd say they take decent amount of skill now. The only problem is they aren't crazy OP so they aren't the obvious PvP class anymore that's on virtually every team. They still take proper planning and positioning. But I think you just like to stroke your ego saying you were better than everyone else because you were a big brain 3d chess player that mind fucked every single one of your opponents.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Flat out they did the same thing:

    SND > Envenom Refreshes > then they made it passive.

    Needs to be passive again for Assassin.
    I'm fine with SnD being an actual button. Now that we have to press it even less, please give Assa some buttons to press. Not to Outlaw's degree maybe but another ability to weave in the rotation would be good.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  10. #290
    Oh look Cut to the Chase was immediately returned, shocking.

    It's almost like the spec was not designed to work with SnD, it's almost like anyone who opposed this change was just an OLD GUD NU BAD! MAH NILLLA! nostalgia stan instead of actually thinking about game and spec design and flow.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  11. #291
    SnD has good interactions though with Assa - one the increased poison applications which are a good chunk of the total damage. I don't like the idea of having it passive - better at that point to just remove it and balance damage around not having it, plus giving more buttons to press.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    SnD has good interactions though with Assa - one the increased poison applications which are a good chunk of the total damage. I don't like the idea of having it passive - better at that point to just remove it and balance damage around not having it, plus giving more buttons to press.
    Same here. I liked BFA much more because we didn't have SnD back then. We could get Hemorrhage and maybe a Exanguinate could be much better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I'm fine with SnD being an actual button. Now that we have to press it even less, please give Assa some buttons to press. Not to Outlaw's degree maybe but another ability to weave in the rotation would be good.
    But to be honest I really like slow-paced specs. I mean we've got already high APM specs... no need to have more.

  13. #293
    Kinda happy with the SND change and I don't think Assa needs more damage buttons either. For those who want different rotations they could give Exsanguinate a tiny bump. In general though I don't feel adding damage buttons that don't have some new utility is a good idea since it just weakens the existing ones. Rogue damage to me feels good when energy regen isn't too fast and when spending it does noticeable damage.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    SnD has good interactions though with Assa - one the increased poison applications which are a good chunk of the total damage. I don't like the idea of having it passive - better at that point to just remove it and balance damage around not having it, plus giving more buttons to press.
    problem is SnD is never a really fun button to press...you push the button your numbers go up and you get a pat on the back for being a good rogue. I mean if your obsessed with parsing and as long as your dps bar goes a little higher your fine more power to you...but otherwise its a button that most players wont notice a difference with

  15. #295
    So by 9.2 Cut to the chase and SnD will be gone again from Assa spec? Great job at unpruning Blizz.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    problem is SnD is never a really fun button to press...you push the button your numbers go up and you get a pat on the back for being a good rogue. I mean if your obsessed with parsing and as long as your dps bar goes a little higher your fine more power to you...but otherwise its a button that most players wont notice a difference with
    Eh, i fully agree with the impactfulness that SnD mechanic has - or better, hasn't. But Assassination is in dire need of more buttons to press, i'm fine with a more relaxed way of deal with SnD but i don't want to see it go away as a button and also hope they add something more. For example, Crimson Tempest should be baseline and also Poison Bomb should be a short baseline CD. This way they could put actually interesting talents in the last row (the FoK one is good - meaning it's a nice mechanic to have, not that it competes with Bomb)
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    SnD has good interactions though with Assa - one the increased poison applications which are a good chunk of the total damage. I don't like the idea of having it passive - better at that point to just remove it and balance damage around not having it, plus giving more buttons to press.
    The problem with SnD's interaction is it's entirely passive, you will always AA it's entirely uncontrollable, SnD becomes the new baseline.

    Building on your later comment I entirely agree SnD should go and muti should get more or at the very least new damaging buttons. PB just needs to go/be reworked, it has the same problem as SnD will have now in that you can't manipulate it because you will always be spamming envenom (on bosses), the fact it's a ST up in an AoE row is just criminal design (what is muti's 'capstone' row aoe anyway?)

    The problem with Muti right now (and some other specs) is blizzard tried to bamboozle the player base with the idea 'unpruning' would lead to better gameplay or meaningful gameplay change when it's pretty obvious (especially with muti and SnD) it was just the low effort road for nostalgia box sales (which is why it flammed out spectacularly).
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The problem with Muti right now (and some other specs) is blizzard tried to bamboozle the player base with the idea 'unpruning' would lead to better gameplay or meaningful gameplay change when it's pretty obvious (especially with muti and SnD) it was just the low effort road for nostalgia box sales (which is why it flammed out spectacularly).
    I don't read that level of malice in the unpruning of classes, but most of it has been basically reactivating old skills without actually checking the impact on rotations and possible synergies with a spec mechanics.

    SnD as a baseline rogue maintenance buff is fine, just as Rutpture. Assassination just hasn't a lot going with it but can be used as a platform to build around. As i said above, there are some skills already in game that can cover the needs of Assa. When a talent is just the only option you have in a row, then it should just be baseline and the talent needs to be replaced (not only for Assa or rogues in general).

    I'd play the shit out of Assa if it was viable in raids. It's easier to play for sure, but also for this more consistent and i can focus more on execution. I'm more than fine with Outlaw and its current status in M+ and i plan to play it the whole xpack (until something broken appears).
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

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