Calia will ruin the forsaken

[Super Dickmann]

Don't move the goalpost. You implied that the humans started the hostilities which is simply wrong. Also Sylvanas planned on conquering Lordaeron and betraying the humans regardless of Garithos politics (I bet she didn't even know that he was some racist).

The Forsaken betrayed and slaughtered the humans who trusted them, so don't act like they were the victims here.

Whether Garithos and the Forsaken would've come to blows because he's biased against flesh-eating ghouls that're morally limited by virtue of their nature or because they're a transparent geopolitical threat to him is irrelevant to the fact that anything except gibbing Garithos would have resulted in her death and the deaths of her entire burgeoning faction. This on the basis of some kind of braindead loyalty to a deal that wasn't in good faith for either party anyway. Even a diminished Lordaeron reclamation movement in the Scarlet Crusade nearly destroyed the Forsaken let alone Garithos' much more coherent army that had foreign backing from Khaz Modan on top of it. Pretty much the only other choice that wouldn't have been retarded would be to have him possessed.

[Melusine]

showing up when you know its bad idea that can hurt your people shows recklesnes... and sure, it showed she care, but about those still living, she was there so few living lorderonians can get their families back, not to actualy help forsaken as group...

I doubt you're right about that. When we meet her in Legion, she was with Alonsus Faol, who is also undead, and had been with him in hiding for years. To say she has no empathy for the undead Lordaeronians seems a huge misstep. That said, you have no evidence.

daenerys is false equivalency, she couldnt realy do anything for "her" people, calia could, but didnt

The mother of dragons. The breaker of chains.... no, she couldn't do anything for her people. She just had access to dragons, raised up a huge army, and navy to fight a war for her....

as a princes of lordaeron, the best way to help forsaken would be to be on stormwind court and plead for them, remind varian (and later anduin) that he is in her debt, that it was her father (and her people) who took in varian and stormwind refugees after sw was burned down in first war, press on him to if not outright accept them as allies to at least end all hostilities against them, so they werent pushed to join horde (or so they could leave it later)

So, she could plead to others and not raise up the army herself. You'll find that being the princess of a fallen kingdom has very little in the way of currency, especially when there are bigger fish to fry. Additionally, when the reason your kingdom has fallen is because the prince killed his own father, the king, the amount of suspicion that comes from the other sibling is not a very high priority.

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that would be first show of her actualy thinking before doing something stupid, if she keeps up that pace in a decade or few she might become good enough leader, until then she is horrible option

There are 2 qualities to a leader. Ability and desire. If you put someone who has all the makings of a leader, but doesn't want that responsibility, he/she will be the sort that cannot keep his followers on track. One with the desire, but not the ability, well, they tend to run things stupidly and drive off their followers. We have at this time two people Blizzard has beset to lead the Undead in the absence of their shitty tyrant leader. Neither believe they have the ability, and Voss is at least smart enough to realize that, meaning she refuses it outright. Calia does not have the goal of leading the Undead, but Voss is trying to compel her to take up the mantle. And as I said, This is the framework by which a story of ascension will be told. But by who? My bet is that it is Lilian Voss who inevitably leads the Undead. Why? Calia is in Oribos right now. You can't lead if you're not present. Lilian Voss will be a reluctant leader, but will have to rise up and do it, because no one else can. Additionally, we may learn the true origins of why and how Calia is still here. Every one of the Undead have one thing in common. They WERE dead, only to be plucked from the stream of fate and resurrected in a form of life that is unnatural and unsettling. Calia is unique in how she has become undead. I think we're also going to learn somethign else about Calia. She is Taelia's mother. Calling it now.

[Jackstraw]

And if that would have happened then even Aduin's peacemongering wouldnt have saved you from a pyre. Forsaken getting a free pass on their mass murdering and blighting always was a biggest plothole in the game.

The times the Blight got deployed - and the game goes on huge lengths to state it's a weakened strain, with the then Warchief's agreeing on its use - is on warzones in war times. No free pass was ever handed to nobody, not on the level of Jaina "actually these Frostbolts teleport" Proudmoore getting her killing fit retconned. Or anything bad the Alliance ever does really.

In Orgrimmar after Sylvanas leaves there's Forsaken being led places in chains. Seems unreasonable to you? Blame the incompetence of writers on that matter.

Don't move the goalpost. You implied that the humans started the hostilities which is simply wrong.

Except it's not.

Also Sylvanas planned on conquering Lordaeron and betraying the humans regardless of Garithos politics (I bet she didn't even know that he was some racist).

The Forsaken betrayed and slaughtered the humans who trusted them, so don't act like they were the victims here.

Is the burden of proof on me now?
Alright.

Garithos was made to be a pawn already by the time he and Sylvanas made contact. Getting mind controlled by a Dreadlord kind of runs you out of options.
Here's the thing: Garithos tried to bargain for Lordaeron with no chips on his part. He led his people on a suicidal attack and were it nor for Sylvanas he would have been probably turned into Scorge. At that point he would still contribute to the siege of Lordaeron, but as a Forsaken.

So let's just not try to redeem the incompetent human version of Garrosh in 5.2 ever again. I understand that hating on Sylvanas from her inception in the plot is the new hip thing to do these last few years, but come on now.

[omeomorfismo]

And if that would have happened then even Aduin's peacemongering wouldnt have saved you from a pyre. Forsaken getting a free pass on their mass murdering and blighting always was a biggest plothole in the game.

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Depends on a reason for war. If thats another "lets kill all life" genocidal rampage then i doubt even horde would get behind forsaken this time.
If thats humans trying to wipe them out to take over EK entirely then sure, she must side with Forsaken.

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Lol. Sylvanas is an embodiment of edge. And "little night elf that likes to throw a punch" is who? Illidan? Shandris? Tyrande? Either of those would be wrong though.

kek, freepass.

varian declared war, garrosh and the horde had to be deveceid to even use a weakened version, the argent crusaders even if techically neutral still raided forsakens and even civilians.

isnt like that if you make up fantasies and headcanons they become true...

[VladlTutushkin]

kek, freepass.

varian declared war, garrosh and the horde had to be deveceid to even use a weakened version, the argent crusaders even if techically neutral still raided forsakens and even civilians.

isnt like that if you make up fantasies and headcanons they become true...

She hasnt used the “weakened” version. Both Soutshore and Gilneas got doused with the concentrated stuff because the moment Garry the Brown turned his back on her she went full “fuck him bring in the “good” stuff” and even her own apothecary was a bit confused.

[Ardenaso]

argent crusaders even if techically neutral still raided forsakens and even civilians.

it's one person

[omeomorfismo]

She hasnt used the “weakened” version. Both Soutshore and Gilneas got doused with the concentrated stuff because the moment Garry the Brown turned his back on her she went full “fuck him bring in the “good” stuff” and even her own apothecary was a bit confused.

and you continue to pull out lyes

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken_F..._Command#Notes

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it's one person

that duty was to patrol the neightbourns of marris stead. isnt like anyone stopped him

[VladlTutushkin]

and you continue to pull out lyes

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken_F..._Command#Notes

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that duty was to patrol the neightbourns of marris stead. isnt like anyone stopped him

And if you played Worgen starting campaign then you would know that i am not wrong. https://youtu.be/b_M34sT5n8s

[omeomorfismo]

And if you played Worgen starting campaign then you would know that i am not wrong. https://youtu.be/b_M34sT5n8s

you are still wrong, that part of the war was way before the weakend strand was even tested on murlocs (worgen questline end before they even join the alliance)

[Wysmark]

Calia is a fricking statue rather than Undead.

I dont mind another type leading the Forsaken, but come on. Anduin is less pristine, Lady Moonberry more serious.

And she is to side with the Horde and fight the Alliance how?

Nay... it wont happen until something breaks her

[Mehrunes]

Don't move the goalpost. You implied that the humans started the hostilities which is simply wrong. Also Sylvanas planned on conquering Lordaeron and betraying the humans regardless of Garithos politics (I bet she didn't even know that he was some racist).

The Forsaken betrayed and slaughtered the humans who trusted them, so don't act like they were the victims here.

Oh yes, because Garithos masked his racism oh so well when the first thing he said to Sylvanas after his mind control was broken was calling her an Elf witch. As for your argument with @Jackstraw, you're the one moving goalposts here. Because this whole bit about Garithos is something you introduced here to dismiss their claim that when Forsaken reached out to humans the humans attacked them. With that statement containing no implication whether the Forsaken already fought humans before or not, for the record.

Which fails as an argument, because there were no survivors of Garithos' men. So whether Sylvanas attacked Garithos' force before reaching out to the rest of the Alliance or not is immaterial to the actual topic you were replying to. The Alliance had no way of knowing about Garithos' fate. As such it obviously couldn't have factored into their decision-making there. Yet they attacked the Forsaken nonetheless.

[Ardenaso]

that duty was to patrol the neightbourns of marris stead. isnt like anyone stopped him

perhaps there's different reasons, but the Argent Crusade didn't care about what the Forsaken did in Hillsbrad, Southshore, Andorhal, or Gilneas so the Argent proper doesn't really mind in general

[Raisei]

Which fails as an argument, because there were no survivors of Garithos' men. So whether Sylvanas attacked Garithos' force before reaching out to the rest of the Alliance or not is immaterial to the actual topic you were replying to. The Alliance had no way of knowing about Garithos' fate. As such it obviously couldn't have factored into their decision-making there. Yet they attacked the Forsaken nonetheless.

It is in fact not immaterial and I think I pointed this out to you before already.

Even if word of the slaughter did not reach the Alliance at all, Sylvanas was very aware of what she did. So her "motivational speeches" of how humans will never accept them and kill them on sight was nothing but a bunch hypocritical lies. No shit they will hunt you if you betray and slaughter them! She decided to make the humans her enemies to have something for her people to fear and prevent them from turning to anyone but herself for help.

So the point that she started the bloodshed is not immaterial to the discussion, it just is not the reason for the Alliances killing of emissaries.

That was for the simple reason that the Alliance just went through a bloody zombie apocalypse. You try going through that and afterwards not assuming every undead is a monster to kill before it comes and eats your face. Something Sylvanas was most definately aware of and intentionally used for her fearmongering.

And as I pointed out earlier she had numerous ways to make "first contact" without sending her people out right away. A simple letter explaining the situation could have made a huge difference.

But again, that was not what she wanted.

[omeomorfismo]

It is in fact not immaterial and I think I pointed this out to you before already.

Even if word of the slaughter did not reach the Alliance at all, Sylvanas was very aware of what she did. So her "motivational speeches" of how humans will never accept them and kill them on sight was nothing but a bunch hypocritical lies. No shit they will hunt you if you betray and slaughter them! She decided to make the humans her enemies to have something for her people to fear and prevent them from turning to anyone but herself for help.

So the point that she started the bloodshed is not immaterial to the discussion, it just is not the reason for the Alliances killing of emissaries.

That was for the simple reason that the Alliance just went through a bloody zombie apocalypse. You try going through that and afterwards not assuming every undead is a monster to kill before it comes and eats your face. Something Sylvanas was most definately aware of and intentionally used for her fearmongering.

And as I pointed out earlier she had numerous ways to make "first contact" without sending her people out right away. A simple letter explaining the situation could have made a huge difference.

But again, that was not what she wanted.

simple letter sent how? with an emissary? like she did? kek, you neven explained anything, just throw a bunch of fantasies

[Krothar]

What is there even to ruin at this point?

The Forsaken had been ground down to the single state of "We serve the Queen" over the last few expansions.

Hopefully IF Cailia does become their faction Leader the Forsaken will be allowed to have more than one dimension to their characters.

[Raisei]

simple letter sent how? with an emissary? like she did? kek, you neven explained anything, just throw a bunch of fantasies

So your point is that in a world full of magic, advanced biochemistry and high-tech, she had no way to send a piece of paper a few miles without having to send one of her Forsaken to carry it? Seriously?

[omeomorfismo]

So your point is that in a world full of magic, advanced biochemistry and high-tech, she had no way to send a piece of paper a few miles without having to send one of her Forsaken to carry it? Seriously?

kek, few miles.
its an entire continent away, warded against teleportation magic, in a universe where teleportation is such a big deal (unless you are jaina in the middle of a deus ex machina) that a land just ravaged to the ground cant realistically support (unless your point is somehow using necromantic energy to fuel it).
but anyway, go with your "plan": good there is a piece of paper in the middle of stormwind. now? hoping that someone find it, trust what its written, report it to the king and not being suspected to be a nuts?
it makes sense, it makes absolutely sense! /s

[Super Dickmann]

So your point is that in a world full of magic, advanced biochemistry and high-tech, she had no way to send a piece of paper a few miles without having to send one of her Forsaken to carry it? Seriously?

Yes, I'm sure Sylvanas was overflowing with all those things while running a sewer and having to send a message cross-continent where every other party in the area was hostile. We know from an omniscient viewpoint that Sylvanas sent messengers to get support from humans expecting support. We also know from her later view that she has no issue working with humans, see Varian. We also know that when the head of Stormwind Intelligence did learn about it ages later, he thought that Garithos got off too lightly for being chowed down by ghouls. Even before that, we know none were aware of what happened to Garithos so as to have it be part of their decision-making when killing the envoys. The guys who torch Forsaken hearts at altars don't say "Oh, we'd have been great buds with those undead, if only they hadn't killed Garithos, pbuh".

But nevermind that, the reasoning that Sylvanas would be opposed to any kind of alliance with humans because she killed people hostile to her who, had she let go, would have occupied the only fortified position in the area and turned against them is so pants on head retarded nothing short of a die-hard commitment to casting everything Sylvanas did as the spawn of Satan can explain pushing that position.

[Raisei]

Yes, I'm sure Sylvanas was overflowing with all those things while running a sewer and having to send a message cross-continent where every other party in the area was hostile. We know from an omniscient viewpoint that Sylvanas sent messengers to get support from humans expecting support.

Okay, maybe she did expect it. That only makes her more insane or more evil, depending which you prefer. She slaughtered the last remnants of Lordaeronian humans and then expected humans to come help her... wow... just wow... . One would think she might have had a better chance of getting that support by making a deal with Gari's troops, who hated him too. "We let you go, you tell our story and we work together." But nah, slaughtering them all and then sending shambling zombies out to beg for aid seems like a much saner option...

We also know from her later view that she has no issue working with humans, see Varian.

That is decades later, when she had long established her choke hold on the Forsaken and they are long a part of the Horde and thus more or less working with other races.

We also know that when the head of Stormwind Intelligence did learn about it ages later, he thought that Garithos got off too lightly for being chowed down by ghouls. Even before that, we know none were aware of what happened to Garithos so as to have it be part of their decision-making when killing the envoys. The guys who torch Forsaken hearts at altars don't say "Oh, we'd have been great buds with those undead, if only they hadn't killed Garithos, pbuh".

Of course. No one cares about that racist SoB. His troops are a very different story though. I am not just saying it was evil and hypocritical that she murdered them all, I am saying it was incredibly stupid if she wanted a relationship with the humans. Those folks would have presented at least a chance. Make Gari's death look like an accident or the work of Scourge, ally with his troops, who hate him, send them to SW to make Sylvanas' case for her. Sooo much more sensible.

But nevermind that, the reasoning that Sylvanas would be opposed to any kind of alliance with humans because she killed people hostile to her who, had she let go, would have occupied the only fortified position in the area and turned against them is so pants on head retarded nothing short of a die-hard commitment to casting everything Sylvanas did as the spawn of Satan can explain pushing that position.

Nowhere is there any evidence that Garithos planned to break the deal. He only told them to leave "his" city, which by the terms of the deal was exactly what was supposed to happen. The betrayal was completely one-sided.
Is it possible that Gari would have turned on them later? Absolutely, but he never got the chance and we have no hints other then his character and commitment to being an asshole to support this theory. On the flipside, we know that Sylvanas was going to break the deal anyway and the character of the human commander had no bearing on it. She barely knew him. Her decision to kill all those humans was made long before and she would have betrayed any commander.

As for pushing for Sylvanas being evil. You know, not really hard work with her when you just lay out the facts. They kinda speak for themselves. I would say trying to explain away all the evil shit she did to make her look less evil is a lot harder.

[Nerovar]

Garithos was right and did nothing wrong. Had he succeeded, we wouldn't have 10 Sylvanas threads a day and this clusterfuck of an expansion.


That man was truly ahead of his time.