Page 21 of 24 FirstFirst ...
11
19
20
21
22
23
... LastLast
  1. #401
    I'm touching on the Garithos topic once more and then never again, because at this point it's getting ridiculous.

    Garithos was a thug on a horse who got by thanks to the support of the political connections humans as a race had inside the Alliance of Lordaeron. That's why he got people from Khaz'modan and Silvermoon, no matter if he saw them all as expendables to ensure his band's survival, or his own.

    By the time Sylvanas gets in touch with Garithos, Garithos is mind controlled. This means that the man is done for and his followers as well. Garithos being freed by Sylvanas is a fortunate circumstance turned tragedy, because not knowing when to back off and count his luck, the guy decides to aid Sylvanas and lay claim to Lordaeron.

    And here's the cherry on top: Garithos got mind controlled because he overextended where nobody could cover for his blunders. Had he succeeded in whatever he was trying to do, he would have become Nameless Ghoul #7, only useful to complete whatever quest there is to do around Caer Darrow.

    And on topic, this whole discussion is one of the most disheartening things about Forsaken lore: Calia is seen as fine because the Forsaken are perceived as expendable in the overarching plot: past villains who need no development because "lol the Plague Sylvanas fanboy tits and ass amirite".

    Years of nuances thrown under a bus.
    Last edited by Jackstraw; 2021-02-01 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Okay, maybe she did expect it. That only makes her more insane or more evil, depending which you prefer. She slaughtered the last remnants of Lordaeronian humans and then expected humans to come help her... wow... just wow... . One would think she might have had a better chance of getting that support by making a deal with Gari's troops, who hated him too. "We let you go, you tell our story and we work together." But nah, slaughtering them all and then sending shambling zombies out to beg for aid seems like a much saner option...
    Sylvanas and the Forsaken killed Garithos's forces within the walls of Lordaeron Keep. They obviously didn't kill every Lordaeronian given that a Lordaeronian skeleton force in Tirisfal was an existential threat and so was the Scarlet Crusade. More than that, Garithos had just recently ordered the heir apparent to an allied kingdom put to death for working with naga (without even knowing what the naga were) along with his subject, yet your argument is founded on casting this guy as an entirely friendly actor who would happily repay a debt when even the direct fulfilment of his orders by people who had no territorial claims, i.e Kael and the naga, got the death sentence.

    That is decades later, when she had long established her choke hold on the Forsaken and they are long a part of the Horde and thus more or less working with other races.
    Let's disregard that we know from the omniscient narrator that she sent messengers for the explicit purpose of soliciting human help, so ipso facto she was fine with human help. What the fuck does Sylvanas care about whether the Forsaken would accept human aid or not? At this stage she's motivated solely by killing Arthas. If the humans would let her join up with them to kill Arthas, then that'd be a deal she'd be welcome to make. That the humans wouldn't make a deal with either the undead or with her personally is why she went to the Horde.

    Of course. No one cares about that racist SoB. His troops are a very different story though. I am not just saying it was evil and hypocritical that she murdered them all, I am saying it was incredibly stupid if she wanted a relationship with the humans. Those folks would have presented at least a chance. Make Gari's death look like an accident or the work of Scourge, ally with his troops, who hate him, send them to SW to make Sylvanas' case for her. Sooo much more sensible.
    I mean, if Sylvanas were 100% a rational robot she would have had him possessed since we know that A) He's extremely weak-willed B) His troops are also absolute dumbasses who would follow him and defend a dreadlord's encampment because he told them to per the quest where Detheroc had him under mind control. Past that, they're collateral and letting them go would not end with them throwing her a parade but with the forces outside the walls growing in numbers. Garithos doesn't need to be an irrational actor and you don't even need to touch his personal qualities to make the case for his killing:

    Nowhere is there any evidence that Garithos planned to break the deal. He only told them to leave "his" city, which by the terms of the deal was exactly what was supposed to happen. The betrayal was completely one-sided.
    Is it possible that Gari would have turned on them later? Absolutely, but he never got the chance and we have no hints other then his character and commitment to being an asshole to support this theory. On the flipside, we know that Sylvanas was going to break the deal anyway and the character of the human commander had no bearing on it. She barely knew him. Her decision to kill all those humans was made long before and she would have betrayed any commander.
    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous. But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.

    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #403
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,474
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It's not about the Horde, it's specifically about the Forsaken. She didn't suffer like them.

    I'm an Alliance player through and through and even I know she doesn't fit.
    Ya Calia totally doesn't fit if you ignore that the Forsaken are actually her people of the fallen kingdom of Lorderon.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Ya Calia totally doesn't fit if you ignore that the Forsaken are actually her people of the fallen kingdom of Lorderon.
    The people she was so tied to, nobody heard a peep about her up until recently, where the Light had to basically brainwash her to make her participate in the Hillsbrad meeting.

    She shares nothing of the torment of undeath, and has nothing in common with the Forsaken - not even the appearance or the tone of voice. She's a lightbound whatever.

    Retcons can change that, sure. They did after all change everything about Sylvanas to accomodate for Zovaal's appearance.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas and the Forsaken killed Garithos's forces within the walls of Lordaeron Keep. They obviously didn't kill every Lordaeronian given that a Lordaeronian skeleton force in Tirisfal was an existential threat and so was the Scarlet Crusade. More than that, Garithos had just recently ordered the heir apparent to an allied kingdom put to death for working with naga (without even knowing what the naga were) along with his subject, yet your argument is founded on casting this guy as an entirely friendly actor who would happily repay a debt when even the direct fulfilment of his orders by people who had no territorial claims, i.e Kael and the naga, got the death sentence.



    Let's disregard that we know from the omniscient narrator that she sent messengers for the explicit purpose of soliciting human help, so ipso facto she was fine with human help. What the fuck does Sylvanas care about whether the Forsaken would accept human aid or not? At this stage she's motivated solely by killing Arthas. If the humans would let her join up with them to kill Arthas, then that'd be a deal she'd be welcome to make. That the humans wouldn't make a deal with either the undead or with her personally is why she went to the Horde.



    I mean, if Sylvanas were 100% a rational robot she would have had him possessed since we know that A) He's extremely weak-willed B) His troops are also absolute dumbasses who would follow him and defend a dreadlord's encampment because he told them to per the quest where Detheroc had him under mind control. Past that, they're collateral and letting them go would not end with them throwing her a parade but with the forces outside the walls growing in numbers. Garithos doesn't need to be an irrational actor and you don't even need to touch his personal qualities to make the case for his killing:



    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous. But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.

    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    No, not really. If she spared him and he tried to stab her later she could have killed him with almost no repercussions because as others (and you) pointed out he was a massive jerk and most likely had no true loyalty of his troops and people they protected. But again we just HAVE to bend into pretzel to excuse her murdering of living Lordaeronians because reasons.

    This is so tiresome. Also thats the reason you guys wholeheartedly DESERVE Calia.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous. But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.

    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    It is completely inconceivable to me how someone could play WC3 and Classic WoW and come out with the conclusion that there could have been peaceful coexistence between undead and humans in Lordaeron. Total annihilation of the other faction within Lordaeron was always the only possible outcome to this conflict. It really shows 'how far we've come' that people retroactively apply this weird logic of "humans and Forsaken can exist peacefully together, hold hands and hug their old family" (which is basically a deranged lore-blind retelling of the Orc story) to the older lore where the only believable reaction of a human meeting a Forsaken resulted in the death of one of the two.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It is completely inconceivable to me how someone could play WC3 and Classic WoW and come out with the conclusion that there could have been peaceful coexistence between undead and humans in Lordaeron. Total annihilation of the other faction within Lordaeron was always the only possible outcome to this conflict. It really shows 'how far we've come' that people retroactively apply this weird logic of "humans and Forsaken can exist peacefully together, hold hands and hug their old family" (which is basically a deranged lore-blind retelling of the Orc story) to the older lore where the only believable reaction of a human meeting a Forsaken resulted in the death of one of the two.
    Blame blizzard. Its their fault that they want us to forgive the horde everything they do, always. So if they really want to pursue that angle then they might at least let that have some positive outcomes or whatever, since not complying with “peace” leads to being “evil and insane” and ending up either dead or close to it (like Tyrande).

    Also on the topic of the whole “forsaken and their living families”. I mean... i would not dare harm my grandfather if he died, became a zombie and then regained his free will. Like, if he would not attack me first as free-willed undead (and why would he? I mean, even if undeath makes you more sour/angry he would have little reason to) i would not shun him. Such familial bonds usually go past “oh he looks scary because his jaw is missing”.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2021-02-01 at 05:41 PM.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also on the topic of the whole “forsaken and their living families”. I mean... i would not dare harm my grandfather if he died, became a zombie and then regained his free will. Like, if he would not attack me first as free-willed undead (and why would he? I mean, even if undeath makes you more sour/angry he would have little reason to) i would not shun him. Such familial bonds usually go past “oh he looks scary because his jaw is missing”.
    That's not the point. IRL most people aren't deeply religious people who think their loved ones are denied entry into the afterlife and doomed to forever live in a cursed state of unlife that completely goes against their faith. I mean, if you want to look for analogies read up on how people in late medieval/early modern Europe treated women whome they suspected to be witches.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    That's not the point. IRL most people aren't deeply religious people who think their loved ones are denied entry into the afterlife and doomed to forever live in a cursed state of unlife that completely goes against their faith. I mean, if you want to look for analogies read up on how people in late medieval/early modern Europe treated women whome they suspected to be witches.
    And WoW clearly stepped away from all such concepts. Looooong time ago too. Sad but thats the WoW we have now. If they can turn warrior-women into pansy flower-ladies who can only cry and die when big, sweaty jocks come around (and then rise to undeath and love those same jocks forever)... They can turn religious peasants into more... tolerant ones.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And WoW clearly stepped away from all such concepts. Looooong time ago too. Sad but thats the WoW we have now. If they can turn warrior-women into pansy flower-ladies who can only cry and die when big, sweaty jocks come around (and then rise to undeath and love those same jocks forever)... They can turn religious peasants into more... tolerant ones.
    There was no effort shown that would make the average Josephus from Stormwind any more tolerant of undead monstrosities. It simply doesn't work like that. You don't go from a Monty Python caricature of ignorant, witch burning peasants to enlightened tolerant merciful beings of pure goodness that put aside their religious views and accept Forsaken for what they are even though only twenty years have passed (in which the Alliance almost constantly fought the Forsaken and lost even more territory and an entire human kingdom to them).

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    There was no effort shown that would make the average Josephus from Stormwind any more tolerant of undead monstrosities. It simply doesn't work like that. You don't go from a Monty Python caricature of ignorant, witch burning peasants to enlightened tolerant merciful beings of pure goodness that put aside their religious views and accept Forsaken for what they are even though only twenty years have passed (in which the Alliance almost constantly fought the Forsaken and lost even more territory and an entire human kingdom to them).
    As i said - thats not about the plot or lore or logic. Its about Blizzard decisions and wants. They wanted to defang and declaw night elves and worgen? They did so. They wanted to make humans tolerant? They did so. Thats about it.

  12. #412
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,474
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The people she was so tied to, nobody heard a peep about her up until recently, where the Light had to basically brainwash her to make her participate in the Hillsbrad meeting.

    She shares nothing of the torment of undeath, and has nothing in common with the Forsaken - not even the appearance or the tone of voice. She's a lightbound whatever.

    Retcons can change that, sure. They did after all change everything about Sylvanas to accomodate for Zovaal's appearance.
    you sure are implying a lot there.

  13. #413
    Calia needs to disappear forever.
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  14. #414
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,842
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    you sure are implying a lot there.
    There are no implications whatsoever in the post you quoted, just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    There are no implications whatsoever in the post you quoted, just saying.
    Its interesting how some people are ready to give the "wait and see" benefits to Sylvanas who works with a dude that pretty much tortures EVERYBODY he can get his hands on until they are insane from agony and then smashes them into weapons or binds to slave-army service... And people still claim that he might be "actually the good guy". But when Light fucked up Draenor everybody assumes that everything Light related is 100% evil and has some malicious implication.

  16. #416
    Defeating Arthas already did that.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Its interesting how some people are ready to give the "wait and see" benefits to Sylvanas who works with a dude that pretty much tortures EVERYBODY he can get his hands on until they are insane from agony and then smashes them into weapons or binds to slave-army service... And people still claim that he might be "actually the good guy". But when Light fucked up Draenor everybody assumes that everything Light related is 100% evil and has some malicious implication.
    Conspiracy theorists, nuts eh.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What the playable Forsaken aren't is omnicidal. They don't want to destroy the world, they want to hold their backyard and kill people who want to kill them or sometimes look at them funny in proximity of their land.
    I think a better word than 'omnicidal' is 'expansionist'. The Forsaken of WoW Classic are evil, but they're not expansionists. The orcs, in contrast, aren't evil, but they are expansionists. The orcs are constantly pushing the borders and seeking new territory. That's why Garrosh has to force/threaten Sylvanas into attacking Gilneas, but when Sylvanas does attack, she goes all out with the Blight.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Its interesting how some people are ready to give the "wait and see" benefits to Sylvanas who works with a dude that pretty much tortures EVERYBODY he can get his hands on until they are insane from agony and then smashes them into weapons or binds to slave-army service... And people still claim that he might be "actually the good guy". But when Light fucked up Draenor everybody assumes that everything Light related is 100% evil and has some malicious implication.
    You need to bloody calm down.

    Zovaal, who is an asspull, did not exist and things got retconned so that he could fit in a multi year overarching machination. That's it. That's literally all that's been said.

    Sylvanas receiving the benefit of doubt is not what's been discussed here, not what the topic is about and not a stance I'd hold. In BfA I surely did, as of now I don't have faith in the current writing team to do any character justice.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas and the Forsaken killed Garithos's forces within the walls of Lordaeron Keep. They obviously didn't kill every Lordaeronian given that a Lordaeronian skeleton force in Tirisfal was an existential threat and so was the Scarlet Crusade. More than that, Garithos had just recently ordered the heir apparent to an allied kingdom put to death for working with naga (without even knowing what the naga were) along with his subject, yet your argument is founded on casting this guy as an entirely friendly actor who would happily repay a debt when even the direct fulfilment of his orders by people who had no territorial claims, i.e Kael and the naga, got the death sentence.
    Garithos was neither a good commander nor a good man. He was a swine. That much I never disputed. But that does not necessarily keep him from honoring his word to Sylvanas. But again, I don't mind that she killed him. I just shine a light on the hypocrasy of murdering his troops and then expecting help from humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Let's disregard that we know from the omniscient narrator that she sent messengers for the explicit purpose of soliciting human help, so ipso facto she was fine with human help. What the fuck does Sylvanas care about whether the Forsaken would accept human aid or not? At this stage she's motivated solely by killing Arthas. If the humans would let her join up with them to kill Arthas, then that'd be a deal she'd be welcome to make. That the humans wouldn't make a deal with either the undead or with her personally is why she went to the Horde.
    You missunderstood my point here. For the Forsaken to become her own little cult and army that would sacrifice unlife and rotten limb for her she needed to be the ONLY ONE they could turn to. She had to destroy their hope that they could return to human civilisation, because then they might have left her and the power she gained from their adoration would evaporate. Once they were indoctrinated enough to drink her bathwater, she could act more freely, but until then she always had to make it look like everyone was out to get them.
    Which admittedly many were, but after her massacre of the troops and then the following experiments on humans she obviously had it coming. It's the same thing I keep saying for the whole Stormheim story. If you have slaughtered innocents on a scale that she has then you are simply no longer in the position to cry foul and play the victim card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I mean, if Sylvanas were 100% a rational robot she would have had him possessed since we know that A) He's extremely weak-willed B) His troops are also absolute dumbasses who would follow him and defend a dreadlord's encampment because he told them to per the quest where Detheroc had him under mind control. Past that, they're collateral and letting them go would not end with them throwing her a parade but with the forces outside the walls growing in numbers. Garithos doesn't need to be an irrational actor and you don't even need to touch his personal qualities to make the case for his killing:
    I didn't even think of the possession angle and I think that is what she should have done, if she was serious about her interaction with humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous.
    Maybe it is, or maybe Garithos actually liked what he saw in the power of undeath and would have joined Sylvanas as her general. For someone like him that does not seem so far fetched. He is obsessed with power and has no problem having his troops die for him. He could have been a valuable ally if she showed him the possibilities, of course only until he betrays her along with Putress because just Lordaeron is not enough, he wants to rule all of Azeroth.

    This is of course just theory based on his character traits and actions, it lacks evidence just like your theory does, because it never came to that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.
    Of course. But you need to consider this: Why do the humans have no reason to trust the undead? Because Sylvanas never earnestly tried to give them one.

    The humans lived through a zombie apolcalypse, that claimed two allied kingdoms and effectively destroyed the Alliance of Lordaeron. Of course they will kill shambling zombies knocking at the doors or found strolling through Lordaeron, sentient or not. Sylvanas needed a sponsor like the Death Knights found in Tirion or she needed to approach the humans herself. Sending emissaries was either woefully stupid or a planned sacrifice to demonize the humans in the eyes of the Forsaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    Acting evil and acting rational is not mutually exclusive though. I remain unconvinced that this was her only option, especially when you yourself say that she wanted to ally with humans. A rational leader would have made use of the situation through diplomacy and trickery not with wholesale slaughter and then hoping that the humans won't find out. And a smart leader would have found a way to communicate with the remaining humans without putting her people in obvious mortal danger.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The people she was so tied to, nobody heard a peep about her up until recently, where the Light had to basically brainwash her to make her participate in the Hillsbrad meeting.
    When did that Light Brainwashing happen? First time I hear about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    She shares nothing of the torment of undeath, and has nothing in common with the Forsaken - not even the appearance or the tone of voice. She's a lightbound whatever.
    This is a pure assumption. Just because she is not moping in a corner going "What joy is there in this curse. Woe is me", does not mean she is not suffering the same effects that the others are feeling. Her body is not decayed (yet), but neither is Sylvanas'. For all we know she might be in constant agony and only puts up a brave face.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •