Masterloot should return

[Vasilisa]

Or you could just say no. If the guild threatens or punishes you for not giving up your item do you really want to stay with them? Removing restrictions gives people who want to give up a useless item to someone who can better use it rather than having to vendor/shard it because it’s higher ilvl.

I can always leave, that's true. However there is no guarantee that the next guild I join will be any better (mind you, there is nothing wrong with my current guild, but I had experienced 'guild channeling' in the past in different guild).

[Fallen Angel]

I can always leave, that's true. However there is no guarantee that the next guild I join will be any better (mind you, there is nothing wrong with my current guild, but I had experienced 'guild channeling' in the past in different guild).

You’re right there is no guarantee, but if you are consistently getting in guilds that do this to you, maybe you’re joining the wrong guilds. There’s nothing wrong with either you or the guild being selfish (gearing yourself vs gearing the raid group, not talking about gearing their friends over everyone else), but the current loot rules don’t allow you to not be until you are >= to that of the content. Is much rather the raid get stronger over me individually since it makes progression that much better

[anon5123]

My old Semi Hardcore Guild fused with another one at the end of MoP and we started WoD with a new Guildleader that tought DKP would be the right thing to do.
We killed the first 3 Bosses in Week one and our Guildleader + Officer raged over TS for 30 min. since noone wanted any gear and saved the DKP for weapons and trinkets...
9 Mythic Items got disenchanted...
After that i quiet "Hardcore" raiding and iam happy over Randomloot.

Yep, that is one of the major flaws of DKP/EPGP systems. People pass on loot and sometimes it even gets disenchanted, because they want to save their points for other pieces.

[Vasilisa]

You’re right there is no guarantee, but if you are consistently getting in guilds that do this to you, maybe you’re joining the wrong guilds. There’s nothing wrong with either you or the guild being selfish (gearing yourself vs gearing the raid group, not talking about gearing their friends over everyone else), but the current loot rules don’t allow you to not be until you are >= to that of the content. Is much rather the raid get stronger over me individually since it makes progression that much better

That's why I'm in favor of some "middle ground". The restrictions of gear trading could be lessened but removing them completely (aka: "master loot") give toxic players/guilds tool to go along with "gm, officers & friends" favoritism.

[Smallfruitbat]

I really worry about these poor players who were continually loot abused and how they continually fall into such situations. In years of pugging, I encountered the odd ninja master-looter and left the raid because of it. I've seen items reserved and that's fine because often the players who reserved stuff were doing the heavy lifting of the raid.

I've never seen a raid leader abuse master looter, I have however seen people get salty because they didn't get the item they wanted because it was legitimately passed to someone else (either because its a bigger upgrade or EVEN WORSE because players were asked to roll because the decision was a close call and it seemed fairest).

[Elkfingers]

That's why I'm in favor of some "middle ground". The restrictions of gear trading could be lessened but removing them completely (aka: "master loot") give toxic players/guilds tool to go along with "gm, officers & friends" favoritism.

That's not an inherent problem with master loot though. Realistically, if a guild's leadership is showing favouritism, it's going to affect more than just loot. It's much easier to find a guild that isn't toxic than to try to regulate every single aspect of social interaction to insulate players from the shitty behaviour of bad GMs/officer teams to the detriment of guilds with good leadership.

[Vasilisa]

That's not an inherent problem with master loot though. Realistically, if a guild's leadership is showing favouritism, it's going to affect more than just loot. It's much easier to find a guild that isn't toxic than to try to regulate every single aspect of social interaction to insulate players from the shitty behaviour of bad GMs/officer teams to the detriment of guilds with good leadership.

You're right, it's just a tool given to toxic people. Though I'm afraid that if ML would have to return some people would demand that it return even in pugs (and I guess we all know how ML is used in pugs). We can ofc not pug, etc but that's discussion for another topic We all agree that current system is faulty though I'm not convinced that ML is the best way of fixing it as it has problems of it's own.

I like the current pvp system (mind you: I don't do rated pvp so correct me if I'm missing something here) and I think similar system in raids would kinda work: you can buy all base gear with points (return of the badges?) which you earn from raids & dungeons. To upgrade gear to certain level you'd need enough bosses killed on hc or mythic respectively. Though the question remains if it wouldn't take away the excitement of getting new raid piece of gear.

[Fallen Angel]

That's why I'm in favor of some "middle ground". The restrictions of gear trading could be lessened but removing them completely (aka: "master loot") give toxic players/guilds tool to go along with "gm, officers & friends" favoritism.

And what would the middle ground be? If there’s still a restriction “X cannot be traded without Y condition” you still could end up losing drops to DE/vendor because it can’t be traded. If a guild is trying to force you to give up a drop you want to keep, again, do you really want to stay with that guild? I could see keeping all restrictions in place for majority pugs, but for guild groups it doesn’t.

[SirBeef]

I agree in a raiding guild this system sux, but it's irreplaceable in random groups. Before personal loot was too many situation when was half guild run and loot from hard boss was handed out to guild members.

A little history with my guild. When we formed, all of us were in some form or another raiders that were competing in world/server firsts from MC-ICC. So we were all aware of reserving gear, certain classes/rules getting gear first, and the occasional GMs preferential players.

We decided to just go/roll for main spec suicide list unless no one else needed the ulnext item you would roll on. Thus applied to PUGs. We had no problems hearing up and clearing content despite the cries of many online that it has to be done a certain way and thise who put in more time deserve it more BS.

When PL came as an option, we exclusively used it. We found we geared up at the same rate as before give or take a piece or 2 a week overall in both directions. While I see the desire for it, it really is relic of the past. If you participate, you deserve equal chance for rewards. It should not be left up to individuals who can be biased, hold grudges, or are greedy.

[Vasilisa]

And what would the middle ground be? If there’s still a restriction “X cannot be traded without Y condition” you still could end up losing drops to DE/vendor because it can’t be traded. If a guild is trying to force you to give up a drop you want to keep, again, do you really want to stay with that guild? I could see keeping all restrictions in place for majority pugs, but for guild groups it doesn’t.

There isn't an ideal solution for this problem. I prefer safety mechanism against toxic people in this game but the current one doesn't satisfy everyone. If ML would come back it'd need to be unavailable even if 1 person would be from outside of the guild (what would give problems with trials from other realms....).

[Eli85]

I say: no, master loot should not return.

I completely understand that there are many people who used master loot the way it was intended, and especially where loot drops are much more frugal, it would make a significant difference in progression. However, too many people abused it in too many situations. Even if you restored it to guilds only, even in good guilds it would be abused. I can remember back in HFC and Nighthold, there was drama because after many kills of the final boss, the loot master gave me (the best healer) my 4-set over tanks and DPS where it was purely iLevel upgrade. This was not a bad guild. This was a CE guild. Drama will persist in too many situations because people are imperfect. And quite frankly, the game is much better off without loot drama.

[evertonbelmontt]

I'm a RL and I never had this problem of "corrupt leadership".

There used to be clear rules about DKP or EPGP or whatever system you used. Majority of competitive guilds used loot council and there was addons to measure the upgrade and you as a RL would also think about attendance, playerskill, next boss in line to be killed so you could gear up the more important classes and a whole lot of people to decide (usually a council).

What I DO have encountered is a lot of entitled players that felt they deserved loot after a kill even if they were underperforming or just downed a boss after many many
wipes.

Fortunatelly me and my group invite and wellcome like minded people so we don't have problems with this nowdays. Even for the last major boss, n'zoth, the newcomers understood that the mounts would be for everyone already there first. They had 420 wipes on that boss, I'm not letting you get the mount before them. You could be a god playing, progression, consistency and respect is more important than numbers.

And since I explained it all before the trial, it worked out. People stayed for all the 24 mounts. (4 players did not want it or care for it)

[Bawrked]

Hello.
I like the way personal loot works for a few reasons, but the amount of loot dropped should be alot more.

[czarek]

Hello.
I like the way personal loot works for a few reasons, but the amount of loot dropped should be alot more.

There should be just more like tokens for exchange. More flexibility to use and less loot waste. Tokens for M+ could be great. Example head token or gear token exchange for feet/wrist/hand slot u know quite similar that they worked years ago. Yay we got weapon tokens in CN but imo its no enought.

[Lora]

absolutely not. it would just be abused like it was in the past and fuck over people who are trying to get loot.

[glowpipe]

If ML ain't making a return at least make people able to trade gear regardless of ilvl... having an 'upgrade' of 3 ilvls with shit stats you'd rather give away should be tradable...

that would just cause issues again that masterlooter was removed to fix. Trials etc not getting loot. Guilds could just go "give up the loot you got or F off" (obviously in this case you should fuck off, but thats beside the point)

[Daedius]

that would just cause issues again that masterlooter was removed to fix. Trials etc not getting loot. Guilds could just go "give up the loot you got or F off" (obviously in this case you should fuck off, but thats beside the point)

Wouldn't be in such a guild to begin with.

[Soimu]

Master loot will never return just deal with it. Personal loot is way better.
Best thing in personal loot now is when doing a raid one night you get some awesome item the raid leader needs and he gets shit haha.

[glowpipe]

Wouldn't be in such a guild to begin with.

enough people were to get masterloot removed in the first place

[Tadkins]

You’re right there is no guarantee, but if you are consistently getting in guilds that do this to you, maybe you’re joining the wrong guilds. There’s nothing wrong with either you or the guild being selfish (gearing yourself vs gearing the raid group, not talking about gearing their friends over everyone else), but the current loot rules don’t allow you to not be until you are >= to that of the content. Is much rather the raid get stronger over me individually since it makes progression that much better

It's not always easy to tell which guilds are going to be good or bad until you've spent quite a bit of time in them. And when it turns out bad and you have to leave, there's 25-50 bucks down the toilet in server/sometimes faction transfer fees.

Now imagine that someone's done this maybe 5-10 times, you can see how it could get both mentally and financially exhausting.