Three reasons why WoW's community is toxic

[Ashleyxoxo]

So successful in fact that Blizzard had to stop reporting sub numbers to preserve that image of "success".

It’s ok, we have Twitch metrics to show us that the other games aren’t even close to being close...

[Niwes]

imo the game is toxic because indirectly Blizz heavily supports that, i.e. by being greedy as fuck.

an example:

- Blizz wanna make money with cash grab systems
- Blizz introduces Tokens
- Every Token ever passes the AH make Blizz additional 7 bugs for doing completely nothing
- Tokens are used to get/produce gold
- Now Blizz needs to support the use of heavy amounts of gold
- Besides stuff like Brutosaur, they support big gold transfers by not disallowing paid runs.
- The „Curved“ PuG grps mentality is born.
- Timmy trade his 20 bugs into gold, get paid run and his Curved
- Now Timmy, without any clue, plays with the big guys
- PuG Raid sucks
- Toxic
- Every second grp has a „curved only“ label
- Toxic
- The label as marker is completely devalued
- Many clueless ppl are mixed up with better players
- Toxic
- Toxic
- Toxic

This shit happens every day in wow and is since years a totally normal situation in the game.

and ppl ask why the game is toxic ???

the answer is simple:
bc Blizz supports it or is just doing nothing that supports a non toxic game. for one or another reason (not all are based on greed/profit).

[Aliven]

well put. I agree with you op.

Not sure what can be done about it thou. Its an mmo afterall. groupcontent is (and imo should be) the peak performance content.

However scarcity of tanks and healers could easily be solved by just adding more specs to classes. theres more than enough class fantasy to allow for more tank/healer/ranged dps specs. mages/locks could easily ahve a tank spec both, and mages could probably fit a healer spec aswell within its classfantasy.

And yeah, blizz did a full 180 on bring the player not the class. So the new rule is "bring the class not the player"... The funny thing is they somehow thought this would bring variety in class representation... Its as if they really thought players would ever chose to run a m+ run without cr or bl...

Actually blizzard can change everything, because the playerbase is malleable. For example - if you create full loot pvp you will atract specific people. If you create great incentivize to explore you attract other kind of people. Blizz created tools and shifted the view of the game to be highly competitive with mostly raid or die mentality, sometimes weaker, sometimes stronger, but always there. They shat of pvp community and nearly drove it into extinction only to NOW give them a bone. So that kind of players which stay dont quit even more. They created timers in m+ to drove the competitives into dungeons for that sweet, sweet esport money (which blizzard spectacularly fail in every single game they have). And that attracts speedrunes, shortcuts, competitive folks, create whole metagame which, as metagame always, pick winners and losers.

Basically - blizzard is responsible because they created a game to attact those kind of people.

Blizz is like that bro tryhard who just need you to try it his way and then you will surelly love it bro. They believe you can only do things 2 ways - their way or the wrong way.

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But who is the most successful, by a large margin, the king of MMOs...

Unsure, since blizz stopped posting numbers - the big 4 are wow, ff14, eso and gw2. I would say the MMO players are more or less evenly split between those 4 titles. But that my guess when playing all 4, there was never an outliner with regards of how much people were.

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It’s ok, we have Twitch metrics to show us that the other games aren’t even close to being close...

Lol, what a shitty metric to go by

[vitor210]

Reason 1. the very design of the game itself reinforces toxicity by making some players more inherently valuable than others.

Explanation: the scarcity of tanks and healers relative to DPS Players, along with segregation among meta specs and bottom of barrel trash specs, is assigning intrinsic value to players who play the correct role / specialization as no group can get started without them. This leads to people who play roles and specs that are in demand developing massive egos and looking down on other players. Most evident among: people who play meta tank specs, meta healer specs and people who can fulfill essential roles e.g. target calling in RBGs.

Real life analogy: the LFG is just a a Tinder where people try to get matched for dungeons and raids instead of dates and unsurprisingly features all of Tinder's worst pitfalls. The roles that are in demand can afford to match with the top 10% of DPS while non-meta DPS specs rot at the bottom of the garbage bin, much like a particular real life group that shall not be named.

Reason 2. your main barrier to any kind of progress are other players rather than the content that you are progressing.

Explanation: in a single player game, your progress is entirely your own achievement. In WoW, you are fighting the other players as much as you are fighting the raid and dungeon bosses. More often than not, a lack of progress will be someone else's fault rather than your own. Coupled with the fact that WoW's main PvE and PvP game modes are exclusive, small-scale instances, this leads to extreme pickiness among PuGs and guilds since the only kind of player that is not being a barrier to your progress is the player that is playing all of the mechanics correctly while performing close to 100% of their theoretical output. A player can never be a "boon" to your group. They are either not a hindrance (~100% of potential output and correct performance of mechanics) or a hindrance.

Real life analogy: companies are extremely picky when it comes to hiring people because in the worst case, the job applicant will bring nothing of value while demanding the company's paycheck.

Reason 3. because of the toxicity that is fostered by reasons 1 and 2, a lot of people decide to cloister off in small communities of friends and not interact with WoW's larger community at all.

Explanation: the only way people will tolerate non-meta specs or suboptimal play is if they are bound by social dynamics. Being toxic to people who you are friends with in real life has repercussions. Being toxic to people you have known for a long time has emotional repercussions since your brain will be fighting to prevent you from alienating your social circle. A new player joining this game, at this stage of the game's lifecycle, often has no chance to form the social bonds required to be a part of a guild or a community of friends..

Real life analogy: people in real life have been cloistering off into small subgroups and subcultures since the dawn of time since humans are, for some reason, incapable of remaining civil in sufficiently large group settings.

Here's a design tip for Blizzard. Don't enforce intrinsic player value by making meta specs and essential roles (both Visions and Torghast are a step in the right direction). Don't make higher-end content a scarce commodity that people have to fight others to access (once again, Torghast is a step in the right direction while M+ keystones are not). Don't promote guilds and communities as a solution to the community eating itself alive outside of cloistered off groups. Step in and manage your community. Do something. anything. DON'T make the game mimic the worst part of real life that we all want to escape: dating and the job market.

I'm bordering on having a brain aneurysm after trying to get 9 modern WoW players to get along for 3 hours to push rating in RBGs today.

Never thought of that, but LFG is INDEED my experience with online dating. I'm always the one who talks, the others barely say anything other than Hi or Goodbye. If something goes wrong, I get shit on. And, as soon as it's over, everyone goes their seperate aways and we don't even see each other again.

OP you're a genious!

[Echocho]

Lol, what a shitty metric to go by

It's a great metric if you completely ignore the fact that some games are more fun to watch than others

[Qnubi]

It's a great metric if you completely ignore the fact that some games are more fun to watch than others

WoW sucks to watch, that alone proves that WoW can't be doing that bad if so many people suffer through watching someone play WoW.

[Cracked]

WoW sucks to watch, that alone proves that WoW can't be doing that bad if so many people suffer through watching someone play WoW.

Wow sucks to watch if you don't already know the game. At the same time, many, many of the biggest and most known streamers out there started their career by streaming and recording WoW, so that's not a coincidence.

[mbit]

WoW sucks to watch, that alone proves that WoW can't be doing that bad if so many people suffer through watching someone play WoW.

Asmongold did a survey. 60% of his viewers dont play the game. Its not surprising either. More people tried and quit than actively play. So its natural that the viewers will contain a large section just interested in seeing whats going on.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Actually blizzard can change everything, because the playerbase is malleable. For example - if you create full loot pvp you will atract specific people. If you create great incentivize to explore you attract other kind of people. Blizz created tools and shifted the view of the game to be highly competitive with mostly raid or die mentality, sometimes weaker, sometimes stronger, but always there. They shat of pvp community and nearly drove it into extinction only to NOW give them a bone. So that kind of players which stay dont quit even more. They created timers in m+ to drove the competitives into dungeons for that sweet, sweet esport money (which blizzard spectacularly fail in every single game they have). And that attracts speedrunes, shortcuts, competitive folks, create whole metagame which, as metagame always, pick winners and losers.

Basically - blizzard is responsible because they created a game to attact those kind of people.

Blizz is like that bro tryhard who just need you to try it his way and then you will surelly love it bro. They believe you can only do things 2 ways - their way or the wrong way.

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Unsure, since blizz stopped posting numbers - the big 4 are wow, ff14, eso and gw2. I would say the MMO players are more or less evenly split between those 4 titles. But that my guess when playing all 4, there was never an outliner with regards of how much people were.

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Lol, what a shitty metric to go by

“Hmoh, that metric sucks!”

Yeah, real good retort. Very well thought out.

[chiddie]

People who can’t play 4 hours a day shouldn’t be playing WoW in the first place. You made that sacrifice when you chose your career, kids, etc.

This may be true, but disparity in /played is what kills the so “called” competition.

As I wrote somewhere else, give everyone the chance to play 4-5 hours a day with a fixed group and the vast majority of them will be near +15 in max one month.

[Ihavewaffles]

Reason 1. the very design of the game itself reinforces toxicity by making some players more inherently valuable than others.

Explanation: the scarcity of tanks and healers relative to DPS Players,

When I could get into heroics on my warrior, I was shocked how squishy i was as a tank, I had to focus on every trash pull, use all CDs n keep mitigation up so not to die, which happened, a lot. My health melted away like it was nothing..
Was way easier to tank on my fat dr00d...
Maybe if they buffed warrior tanks? Shouldn't have to over-gear to tank...
I had to resort to que as dps, cuz other players got mad things took long time...
But on my pala tank, the healer might aswell have gone dps n do some random off-heals..

[mbit]

When I could get into heroics on my warrior, I was shocked how squishy i was as a tank, I had to focus on every trash pull, use all CDs n keep mitigation up so not to die, which happened, a lot.
Was way easier to tank on my fat dr00d...
Maybe if they buffed warrior tanks? Shouldn't have to over-gear to tank...

As a dh tank i found myself numerous times just jumping around kiting to avoid a wipe. Always cause someone pulled 2nd group or more. I find it more amazing what you can get away with than a problem. Its honestly too boring if you dont have to put some minimum amount of effort into it.

[tikcol]

Enjoy a dead game then? If all those filthy career whores leave...

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It is not overly simplistic. It is also wrong. And dumb.

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Highly successfull with better communities?

It didn't take long for someone to take it personally. Thanks for proving my point..

[Aliven]

It didn't take long for someone to take it personally. Thanks for proving my point..

More power for you then. Doesnt make you right but that was never the case

[dread05]

More often than not, a lack of progress will be someone else's fault rather than your own.

This is such a bad argument. Usually its the other way around. Nobody's keeping you in your bad guild/premade than yourself.

[Aliven]

“Hmoh, that metric sucks!”

Yeah, real good retort. Very well thought out.

Eh, ill bite.

Firstly - wow has some prominent figures in its community, example would be Asmongold or Preach. People gravitate towards them and watch them, not always because they are interested in wow but rather in a personality.

Second - wow is 17y old game and has gigantic community (community =! active players) which is interested in a game even if they dont play. Like myself.

Third - It creates e sport theme with hard content. People like to watch the m+ and raids.

Fourth - pvp = audience.

Thats why it is shitty metric. Game being popular to watch doesnt mean it is also played by massive number of people. For example GTA V has similar number of views and look at that https://steamcharts.com/app/271590 . Not really milions of people playing isnt it?

[Alkizon]

Wilfire
Reason 1. Reason 2. Reason 3.

No, problems are quite different.

... but if necessary conditions aren't met, then miracle doesn't happen and only ones who can be blamed for this... yes, yes, devs themselves set of systems organized by them for the game in particular. Which attract and mould specific consumer, restrict/force one to certain actions.

Let's start with your first paragraph. It's not that they do someone better than others. Wording is basically not correct, you are talking about players, but in explanation you slide into design elements and directly onto specs and roles. So it's not about players, but about design of specific element, in this case it's classes and content + progress. This is how it should sound if you would like to state something like that. Yes, classes design is bad, so design of progress is even more bad, and fact that content is oriented towards someone in this hierarchy is rotten cherry on a pile of $hit.

Do you understand? The point is not who is better or worse, but dev's direct design mistakes. "Better and worse" barrier was successfully overcome by players not once already.

Automatic random search system is a completely separate design problem associated with social aspect of the game, which, of course, makes its own adjustments, but your its mention in this paragraph completely devalues ​​it as some kind of "about restrictions". Classic version of design had in this sense even more of your so-called "restrictions" and somehow managed to be overal less toxic.

The second paragraph doesn't stand up to criticism at all, since the only barrier in current conditions is just progress, since you get content absolutely for free, and dependence on other players for you as such doesn't exist at all thanks to aforementioned system and servers' organization system... community doesn't have any educational impact on you as individual, game simply doesn't allow such, so you can absolutely painlessly be very last @$$hole in the game and be very successful in progress... which leads us to conclusion about where all this toxicity comes from. In other words, game encourages such people with its design, shields them from influence of community, grows them in greenhouse conditions (in environment in which they feel like fish in water, and you know what I'm hinting at, do you?).

The third paragraph talks about absence of analytical thinking as such. People of "closed societies" aren't distributors of toxicity, if just because you simply don't meet with them, all toxicity primarily comes from ill-bred independent loners. Is it worth explaining or can you guess on your own? If person is able to be in a group long time, to be useful and coexist with others, then outside of this group these individuals will first of all try to behave in their usual way, and this will be? which one? there is hint just above. And that's why loners in such conditions will be Alone-rs.

Everything is much simpler in terms of wording, we have already analyzed it more than once, last time for example here, some stuff here.

[Aphrel]

It’s ok, we have Twitch metrics to show us that the other games aren’t even close to being close...

by that metric, whatever game xqc or pewdiepie plays is the most popular game in the world pretty much.

[Karlz0rz]

When I run into the same type of player over and over again, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, it's not a generalization anymore. It's the truth of the WoW community.

Ever thought the issue might be you? :P
If you keep running into toxic people every time you play, you are the common denominator here...
I'm not saying you are, but it at least warrants some introspection, no?

[Cts53]

Reason 1. the very design of the game itself reinforces toxicity by making some players more inherently valuable than others.

Explanation: the scarcity of tanks and healers relative to DPS Players, along with segregation among meta specs and bottom of barrel trash specs, is assigning intrinsic value to players who play the correct role / specialization as no group can get started without them. This leads to people who play roles and specs that are in demand developing massive egos and looking down on other players. Most evident among: people who play meta tank specs, meta healer specs and people who can fulfill essential roles e.g. target calling in RBGs.

Real life analogy: the LFG is just a a Tinder where people try to get matched for dungeons and raids instead of dates and unsurprisingly features all of Tinder's worst pitfalls. The roles that are in demand can afford to match with the top 10% of DPS while non-meta DPS specs rot at the bottom of the garbage bin, much like a particular real life group that shall not be named.

Reason 2. your main barrier to any kind of progress are other players rather than the content that you are progressing.

Explanation: in a single player game, your progress is entirely your own achievement. In WoW, you are fighting the other players as much as you are fighting the raid and dungeon bosses. More often than not, a lack of progress will be someone else's fault rather than your own. Coupled with the fact that WoW's main PvE and PvP game modes are exclusive, small-scale instances, this leads to extreme pickiness among PuGs and guilds since the only kind of player that is not being a barrier to your progress is the player that is playing all of the mechanics correctly while performing close to 100% of their theoretical output. A player can never be a "boon" to your group. They are either not a hindrance (~100% of potential output and correct performance of mechanics) or a hindrance.

Real life analogy: companies are extremely picky when it comes to hiring people because in the worst case, the job applicant will bring nothing of value while demanding the company's paycheck.

Reason 3. because of the toxicity that is fostered by reasons 1 and 2, a lot of people decide to cloister off in small communities of friends and not interact with WoW's larger community at all.

Explanation: the only way people will tolerate non-meta specs or suboptimal play is if they are bound by social dynamics. Being toxic to people who you are friends with in real life has repercussions. Being toxic to people you have known for a long time has emotional repercussions since your brain will be fighting to prevent you from alienating your social circle. A new player joining this game, at this stage of the game's lifecycle, often has no chance to form the social bonds required to be a part of a guild or a community of friends..

Real life analogy: people in real life have been cloistering off into small subgroups and subcultures since the dawn of time since humans are, for some reason, incapable of remaining civil in sufficiently large group settings.

Here's a design tip for Blizzard. Don't enforce intrinsic player value by making meta specs and essential roles (both Visions and Torghast are a step in the right direction). Don't make higher-end content a scarce commodity that people have to fight others to access (once again, Torghast is a step in the right direction while M+ keystones are not). Don't promote guilds and communities as a solution to the community eating itself alive outside of cloistered off groups. Step in and manage your community. Do something. anything. DON'T make the game mimic the worst part of real life that we all want to escape: dating and the job market.

I'm bordering on having a brain aneurysm after trying to get 9 modern WoW players to get along for 3 hours to push rating in RBGs today.

Might I suggest GW2? Alot of the problems that you mentioned don't exist over here!