M+ and Raider.IO

[Aphrel]

i will not fully disagree here.

but when we look at curve achvmnt not from a „even worse without it“ point of view but instead from a „what did curve brought us“ i also can not found anything useful. it brought us 19463426 kiddy grps with „curved only“ that is even more a marker for „whatever you do, do not join such a grp“. also it supported paid runs bc every kid and his grandma buys a token by real money to invest the gold in a paid run to quickly get his curve, to play with the big guys. both said points make curve completely useless.

so in the end of the day i have to disagree. in my eyes Curve achvmnt is one of the most bad things WoW ever had. not by its own, but by the „meta implications“. it helps and supports to making the game bad.

in my eye Curve is pure cancer.

thing is, even a bad solution is better than nothing.

Nothing = pure rng what type of player you end up with, at that point its basicly as bad as automatic dungeonfinder.

Even if an astonishingly high number of player bought curve for gold or irl money (lets pick an insanely over the top large number like 50%), even in this ridiculous example, ahead of the curve is still an improvement compared to trying to pug without any indicator of experience. Because at least 50% of the time, you get a person who knows the fight.

[chiddie]

Tanking and healing is far less interesting than dps, far less mecanics to manage and far less complex to play. And what about pure dps class ?

Nice bait.
Infracted

[Azerate]

Why should PvE be exempt from tested practices that worked fine in PvP. Have a rating and DEFEND it. That sure makes players work hard in PvP.

If the only one losing is the key holder and everyone else can slack or leave the M+ with impunity its an unfair system isn't it.

Btw pug M+ is not close to what people portray it as in this forum. Fake elitism kills the facts.

Depleting a key is hardly a punishment in itself. It is an inconvenience, but most people don't even do their own keys but join keys of other people.

Penalizing everyone for failing a run would just increase the toxicity tenfold. It would be harder to find any group that accepts you, people would just leave the runs randomly scared to have a depleted key in their score (if you leave before the end of the dungeon, that is not tracked, so people would prefer that instead of getting minus points).

This basically sounds like a solution that someone who doesn't pug much m+ came up with.

[Specialka]

Nice bait.

Curious how you resort to trolling instead of, you know, prove me wrong by explaining how I am wrong, IF I am wrong(which I am not).
Infracted

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All they had to do was baptize M+ into RATED mythic dungeons and award a score like they do for arena/RBG. Slap some titles to it also like Mythic Dungeon Challenger/Rival/Master shit like that.

Make it so you fail the dungeon points get detracted. You progress the dungeon you progress the ladder. Simple and fair system that would end the gripes and works fine its been tested in rated PvP for over a decade.

Usually, you do not do high rated arena and such with strangers you pick from a list.

[Naville]

Curious how you resort to trolling instead of, you know, prove me wrong by explaining how I am wrong, IF I am wrong(which I am not).

Greatly dependent of what key level you are doing.

Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
Hardest role on mid-range keys: tank.
Hardest role on higher keys: dps.

Also different if you PUG keys or not. When I'm playing in a premade as a tank, sometimes I've got the feeling of being boosted by DPS players.

[Magneto]

Greatly dependent of what key level you are doing.

Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
Hardest role on mid-range keys: tank.
Hardest role on higher keys: dps.

Also different if you PUG keys or not. When I'm playing in a premade as a tank, sometimes I've got the feeling of being boosted by DPS players.

hokey generalisation reaching new heights

[Tojara]

Not sure how you can generalize that a specific role is harder the higher you go.

The only thing that changes in higher keys is you need to do more damage, and that's a concentrated group effort. DPS players only look better (overall) when pull numbers are met to both make them look good, and too coincide with their cooldown usage. Just because a DPS player has to do more damage in order to time a higher key doesn't automatically make their job harder, it makes the whole groups job harder because pulling a giant fucking pack comes down to every single role in your party performing well (while your DPS generally hit a very simplistic rotation, more often than not).

You can generalize lower dungeons where tanks can pretty much carry a group, but saying that DPS have the hardest role in the highest dungeons is laughable. Everything about those giant pulls is micromanaged and planned with the group in mind, and if the tank kites poorly, uses defensives poorly, or missed interrupts/stuns, the whole pull falls to pieces. During those pulls if a healer is slow healing absurd damage or not using their utility (externals, defensives, interrupts, stuns) than the entire pull falls to pieces. Guess what I'm going to say next? If a DPS player doesn't use their interrupts, defensives or cooldowns properly, the pull falls to pieces.

The higher you go the harder it is for the entire group. While random mage from a 15 might not be as good as a mage who does 20, the difference between them isn't as large as you might think. The difference is the groups doing 20s are likely a bit more organized and they have to pull bigger in order to time the key, and larger pulls means that generally your DPS is going to be higher. It's like playing classic WoW where retards gloat about their DPS thinking they're better players by a landslide. There's just no comparison when "x" guild is running with 16 warriors and has 100% uptime on deathwish on a boss that lasted 25 seconds, versus another warrior in a different guild where the boss lasted a minute.

The TLDR here is that "generally" a tank can basically carry groups at low levels keys. A single "godly" DPS player normally can't, while a group of them absolutely can. DPS classes don't magically get harder to play for suddenly being asked to press buttons they don't normally have to press in lower key levels. What do you think tanks and healers have to press at all key levels? Suddenly DPS is harder because you're finally asked to press utility spells so your group doesn't wipe, interrupts so you or the tank doesn't die, or defensive spells in order to survive. DPS can generally get away with doing nothing but DPS in certain key levels because healers can make up for mistakes.

[chiddie]

Curious how you resort to trolling instead of, you know, prove me wrong by explaining how I am wrong, IF I am wrong(which I am not).

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Usually, you do not do high rated arena and such with strangers you pick from a list.

Not interested, sorry, I will gladly make you continue to believe that dpsing is far more difficult than tanking or healing.

[Nightfyre]

[QUOTE=Specialka;52987127]Curious how you resort to trolling instead of, you know, prove me wrong by explaining how I am wrong, IF I am wrong(which I am not).

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To you they're not interesting, to other's it is. It's person dependent, on what they're interest are. So hard to prove for you, but others don't need to be proved for what they like!

[ShadowofVashj]

All they had to do was baptize M+ into RATED mythic dungeons and award a score like they do for arena/RBG. Slap some titles to it also like Mythic Dungeon Challenger/Rival/Master shit like that.

Make it so you fail the dungeon points get detracted. You progress the dungeon you progress the ladder. Simple and fair system that would end the gripes and works fine its been tested in rated PvP for over a decade.

But doesn't raider IO do that in and of itself? Like you can go and see where you rank based on class, server, faction, etc. So there is a ladder of sorts, even if unoffically.

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In mythic that’s definitely false for tanks. And healing is the hardest role in high end raiding.

As far as difficulty I’d rate it:

M+: Tank >> DPS = Heal
Raiding: Heal > DPS > Tank

I haven’t played a pure dps class since wrath. Especially melee, queuing as melee for m+ is like a fat neckbeard joining tinder. If you go rank or heal, all your group joining problems disappear. It’s not raider.io, it’s role disparity.

And I think this is something that goes underappreciated in terms of impact. If you've ever started a key group yourself, you've seen just how fast that q lights up with dps roles. You can have the group listed for five seconds and you're already scrolling through dps. The competition for getting picked is heavy out there. Which is why as DPS it's always generally easier obviously to run your own key group.

[Specialka]

[QUOTE=Nightfyre;52987262]

Curious how you resort to trolling instead of, you know, prove me wrong by explaining how I am wrong, IF I am wrong(which I am not).

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To you they're not interesting, to other's it is. It's person dependent, on what they're interest are. So hard to prove for you, but others don't need to be proved for what they like!

The interest is subjective, the rest is not.

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Not interested, sorry, I will gladly make you continue to believe that dpsing is far more difficult than tanking or healing.

So no argument then ? So I guess I am right.

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In mythic that’s definitely false for tanks. And healing is the hardest role in high end raiding.

As far as difficulty I’d rate it:

M+: Tank >> DPS = Heal
Raiding: Heal > DPS > Tank

I haven’t played a pure dps class since wrath. Especially melee, queuing as melee for m+ is like a fat neckbeard joining tinder. If you go rank or heal, all your group joining problems disappear. It’s not raider.io, it’s role disparity.

You only have to know the route and what to pull. What is the difficulty in that ?

[facefist]

RIO is very clearly a tool to find like minded people to play with, and a successful one.

People against it just want to get carried by stranger above their own skill level. It may enrage you, but deep inside you know I'm right.

The only problem with the tool is that it doesn't distinguish between pug and premade. I've done 18's timed with a guild premade, and I've failed 18's with pugs even though those pug players were arguably better players than my guildies.

It's just so much easier to get high score with a premade, and it's hard to get high score with a pug even for a good player. Someone who has done +18 in premade might just suck in pug if no1 is telling him when to interrupt, move etc. So the performance of someone who has high rio from premade might not always be in line with his rio.

[Specialka]

What? You have all the responsibilities of a dps plus managing threat and often kiting on big pulls. Many affixes are completely up to you to manage, like necrotic. Then you have to know the entire route (including slight changes from week to week).

You can’t seriously be arguing that it’s harder to dps. Get out of here lol.

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Honestly I’ve read your post several times and trying to figure out how it relates to mine but I have no idea. Are you saying that people playing tank are fotm? Because that’s not true. At all.

Responsability =/= compelxity. I am a dps and I also know the route, what to pull/cc/cs etc...

[erifwodahs]

If I were raider.io, I'd start selling premium features. A temporary boost for $20 to show a score that is 200 higher than actual score. $20 to keep your character updated with relevant data. $20 to hire an elite team to boost your score.

Maybe they'll start doing this eventually.

Good thing that they are not you then.
You literally just trashed yourself.

[T-34]

raider.io is just the new gearscore and judging people solely on gearscore was already bad in wrath. now it's no different, you'll find people with a high score but they don't understand how to play their class.

both are flawed systems that make others judge you on numbers with nothing behind it and tbh it only births elitist behaviour too

You are free to make your own group based on the criteria that fits your taste.
You should be happy for a tool like raider.io because it ensures that people that have an "elitist behaviour" play together and doesn't that ensure that you would have nice in-game experience with players like yourself that don't "judge each other on numbers"?

[Segus1992]

dear god, you don't actually believe that, do you? that has to be hyperbole or something.

what am i saying, of course you do... this is the kind of thing that people who gripe about .io are talking about.

RIO is pretty useless at gauging players who do low keys, that's true. There's absolutely nothing validating about completing timed runs below a +10, it is above that that RIO starts being accurate - because in high keys every player has to perform.

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If I were raider.io, I'd start selling premium features. A temporary boost for $20 to show a score that is 200 higher than actual score. $20 to keep your character updated with relevant data. $20 to hire an elite team to boost your score.

Maybe they'll start doing this eventually.

Are you trolling? This would be against the rules and would get the addon banned within days.

[Engal]

Obligatory "Don't like it, then start your own group or level your own key"

Stuff like r.io is necessary, because in order to be successful in higher keys, you need people who know how to play mythic+. This means, interrupts, mob movement, boss mechanics (especially on tyrannical), and how to play their class well (i.e. using all the spells in your spellbook).

correction : In order to be successful in higher keys, you need dps people who play meta class and who will be invited all the time.

- Rogue
- Monk DPS
- Mage
- Boomkin
- Hunt
- DK



Any other classes will be left behind or taken if there are no other choice.

[Alroxas]

correction : In order to be successful in higher keys, you need dps people who play meta class and who will be invited all the time.

Any other classes will be left behind or taken if there are no other choice.

Eh... But what defines a "higher key"? Because if you go look at 10+ and higher (or even 15% and higher) the distribution is mostly fine. It's only when you're pushing 20+ that "meta" is a serious concern.

Even at the 15+ and higher, most classes/specs are represented. For instance, consider tanks in 15+ and higher. While DH dominates at 39.6%, Prot Warriors make up about 4.4% which is almost 3k unique prot warriors.

Perhaps, instead of "need", it's more that the party leaders "want" certain classes because they are more favored in the "meta". But all players should realize that "meta" is basically an asinine benchmark unless you're doing top-end content defined as 18+ or higher keys.

[Skillslam]

Hypothetical 4th vault option: Time 20 keys and you can target a specific slot based on your lowest run.

Worth?

[Stanislav]

correction : In order to be successful in higher keys, you need dps people who play meta class and who will be invited all the time.

- Rogue
- Monk DPS
- Mage
- Boomkin
- Hunt
- DK



Any other classes will be left behind or taken if there are no other choice.

half of those druids from china are "orc druid" "human druid" and no armory or gear linked.... seems kinda sus considering the top groups 2 weeks ago were all hunter mage + 1 melee and now its boomie in every single one even tho they didnt get buffed.