Can we finally get some balance for Covenants?

[Fistfighter]

NO. People need to have to live with their choice and the consequences that comes with it. People should never be handed everything.

yes, I agree

but this is a video game, sir

[Kumorii]

yes, I agree

but this is a video game, sir

Most video games have choices and consequences... it's how games become games.

[rrayy]

yes, I agree

but this is a video game, sir

Doesn't matter. All video games have choices. You don't get handed everything.

[Toybox]

Most video games have choices and consequences... it's how games become games.

How often do they work in an MMO though? "Oh you're now 10% weaker in certain content while being 10% stronger somewhere else?"

If anything, the way the abilities are tied to the covenants has denied their ability to be a meaningful choice. The stats show most people picking what's theoretically the most powerful rather than picking what thematically fits them the best, & at that point, the system has failed.

It should've just been a talent row. We've not had one since WoD. If Warrior's got a talent row with Condemn, Spear, & Aftershock/Banner, that would've been the most hype thing ever. But now pretty much anyone with a mild interest in raiding (as well as those who don't) is playing Venthyr. At the Mythic level it's 10% ahead PLUS the difference in value of being big where it counts (last 35% of a bosses HP).

If it were a talent row, Sinfall wouldn't be a Warrior order hall 2.0. There was no meaningful choice to people playing at a certain level in PvE or PvP, & while you could argue those playing at lower levels didn't need to follow those doing higher content (which they didn't), why would anyone intentionally choose to be behind in content?

[mbit]

The premise is wrong. People dont choose wrong. Biggest idiot can look up whats meta and take it. People simply hate the choices.
WoW already decided to separate style and power with transmog.
There was no reason to lock it together again with covenants.

[Kumorii]

How often do they work in an MMO though? "Oh you're now 10% weaker in certain content while being 10% stronger somewhere else?"

If anything, the way the abilities are tied to the covenants has denied their ability to be a meaningful choice. The stats show most people picking what's theoretically the most powerful rather than picking what thematically fits them the best, & at that point, the system has failed.

It should've just been a talent row. We've not had one since WoD. If Warrior's got a talent row with Condemn, Spear, & Aftershock/Banner, that would've been the most hype thing ever. But now pretty much anyone with a mild interest in raiding (as well as those who don't) is playing Venthyr. At the Mythic level it's 10% ahead PLUS the difference in value of being big where it counts (last 35% of a bosses HP).

If it were a talent row, Sinfall wouldn't be a Warrior order hall 2.0. There was no meaningful choice to people playing at a certain level in PvE or PvP, & while you could argue those playing at lower levels didn't need to follow those doing higher content (which they didn't), why would anyone intentionally choose to be behind in content?

I would say MMORPGs are built upon choices and consequences. Everything from class and race impacts your character in almost all of them.
Take note that I'm not saying there aren't good and bad implementations... Just that peoples oversimplified "It's a video game, thus consequences shouldn't exist" is just faulty from the start.

[Garymorilix]

So OP swapped to a covenant he had no intention playing with, he cannot play with it and now it's the system's fault because he "wanted the story".

Level an alt, my god.

Maybe Kyrian tanking is easier, Idk, I am a necrolord tank and I have zero issue with tanking necrotic or anything really.
Maybe if you had not face tanked 8 million stacks of Necrotic you wouldn't die. Crazy right?

Fckin hell the audacity of some people. "Everything sucks but I don't". Yea, sure, Bobby boy.

[Toybox]

I would say MMORPGs are built upon choices and consequences. Everything from class and race impacts your character in almost all of them.
Take note that I'm not saying there aren't good and bad implementations... Just that peoples oversimplified "It's a video game, thus consequences shouldn't exist" is just faulty from the start.

Fair point, to which I'd argue that the consequences 16 years into a game's lifespan shouldn't involve game-changing player power abilities that you're locked in to & out of with little to no chance of experimentation. The only highlight is these factions will undoubtedly fade into irrelevance once Shadowlands end, & maybe, just maybe, we'll get a new talent row. That's the best we can hope for at this point I reckon.

On the concept of meaningful choices, I would've found it much more meaningful to pick the one I actually liked rather than the one that was very obviously going to be unmatched in the content I tend to participate in. I'm always going to be a gameplay before style kind of player even if I stop raiding, but the choice was never really a choice to begin with for people like myself, & at that point the system has failed.

[Kaver]

Doesn't matter. All video games have choices. You don't get handed everything.

Some choices are more interesting than others.

- - - Updated - - -

BUt things do work. The convenants in no way prevent you from playing the game AT ALL. Therefore, it's a player problem, not a game problem. Players need to stop with the obsession that they need everything and have to top the meters to play the game. Player entitlement is at the root of all these issues, not the game design.

So balancing basically doesn’t matter if you’re theoretically able to finish content?

[banadona]

What you seem to be missing OP, is that balanced doesn't equal everything being the same. The covenants are balanced. It's just that some of them have slightly better performance for certain things, which is more than fine. If you want to maximize a certain aspect of your character, use the relevant covenant. If you don't care about minmaxing, no one forces you.

When the vast majority of the Tank playerbase agree that Kyrian is better in almost every content then I think it can be classified as bad game design.

- - - Updated - - -

So OP swapped to a covenant he had no intention playing with, he cannot play with it and now it's the system's fault because he "wanted the story".

Level an alt, my god.

Maybe Kyrian tanking is easier, Idk, I am a necrolord tank and I have zero issue with tanking necrotic or anything really.
Maybe if you had not face tanked 8 million stacks of Necrotic you wouldn't die. Crazy right?

Fckin hell the audacity of some people. "Everything sucks but I don't". Yea, sure, Bobby boy.

Are you mentally challenged or just can't or didn't read my post in full?

I said I'm no pro, no doubts about it. It doesn't change the fact that one covenant is much superior to the other 3 in almost every content you can think off.

If you are so blind to the data, or just unable to admit this is the case I don't know what to tell you. I would rather have a real choice rather than having to pick Kyrian not to feel bad about myself because if I'm not then I am just gimping myself on purpose.

[razorpax]

What you seem to be missing OP, is that balanced doesn't equal everything being the same. The covenants are balanced. It's just that some of them have slightly better performance for certain things, which is more than fine. If you want to maximize a certain aspect of your character, use the relevant covenant. If you don't care about minmaxing, no one forces you.

I seem to remember that blizzard will kill an exploit used by classes to overcome a game mechanic like dying on purpose and moving adds or something like that

Divine intervention is gone from the game
Monks got all their magic reduction nerfed
Brewmasters got isb removed Because it was so powerful at one point it was abused for KJ

But a 2min cd that completely negates a mechanic is fine??

The covenant system isn’t balanced

You could raid as a survival hunter but that doesn’t mean it’s balanced

[Aggressive]

It's a game dude. If you want cOnSeQuEnCeS, leave your room and participate in real life.

Intenz is right. Covenants are a fine concept, as long as they can properly balance it, and well they can't. Not like it comes as any surprise really, we have years of experience when it comes to Blizzard missing the mark.

You must be delusional to think that creating a system that punishes you, in a game that's supposed to be entertainment, for which you have to pay to be able to play, is a fine concept. Like wtf dude.

THIS FOR SURE. It is a game. Not even sure why people think it is life and all the consequences that come with it. Suppose to be fun to log on. Not log on and work this shit like another 8 hour job.

[Jujudrood]

Hold up.
So the complaint is the Phial allowing you to clear (read: trivialize) dungeon mechanics such as Necrotic?
Ok, easy fix; Don't let the phial clear Necrotic or any other affix.
Problem solved.
If you can't survive kiting off your stacks, you are in a key that is too high for your gear/skill level.

[Wavebossa]

I hope you were kiting. Its a necrotic week.

[banadona]

Hold up.
So the complaint is the Phial allowing you to clear (read: trivialize) dungeon mechanics such as Necrotic?
Ok, easy fix; Don't let the phial clear Necrotic or any other affix.
Problem solved.
If you can't survive kiting off your stacks, you are in a key that is too high for your gear/skill level.

I'm not saying that it's not the case but I think it was rather that I never had to worry about that since I went Kyrian and it was basically all the time I did M+ so I was not that prepared to deal with this.

It doesn't change the promise of my post that some Covenants are clearly better for specific roles which is proven by the data.

[Kehego]

so basically a bad tank is blaming blizzard for dying, right?

[ShadowofVashj]

The problem op, is that in any game where there is a hint of competition and/or number crunching, there will be min/maxxers. There's no way to avoid it. And without everything being the same, some systems will be slightly better or worse.

Just the nature of the beast. As other posters have mentioned ad nauseum, blizz has rarely ever balanced perfectly so it's something to be expected.

[Tyris Flare]

BUt things do work. The convenants in no way prevent you from playing the game AT ALL. Therefore, it's a player problem, not a game problem. Players need to stop with the obsession that they need everything and have to top the meters to play the game. Player entitlement is at the root of all these issues, not the game design.

No one benefits from the current design. SOme people seem to think they do, but only because it annoys people they don't like.

This is like the WoW version of "triggering the libs" and just as stupid.

Same with "if there's one example of someone doing x, then everything is fine." That's the equivalent of "the US had one black president, therefore racism doesn't exist."

At least try harder.

[Kaibhan]

Oh look it's time for another one of these threads. Covenants were never going to work the second they died player power to them. They simply can't due to how thin the margin for error is the in the higher content you do. Yet no were at the point where people want them all to be balanced so they can play what they want but we can't have that either or else everyone at the high end needs to make that transition which proves the failure that covenants are and we always knew they would be.

[banadona]

The problem op, is that in any game where there is a hint of competition and/or number crunching, there will be min/maxxers. There's no way to avoid it. And without everything being the same, some systems will be slightly better or worse.

Just the nature of the beast. As other posters have mentioned ad nauseum, blizz has rarely ever balanced perfectly so it's something to be expected.

But this is not the case of slight imbalances. Over 70% of all tanks, all classes went Kyrian. That is no slight imbalance.

What I would like is to have a free choice of going with every covenant out there on a whim and not feeling bad by going against the current and knowing one of those choices is clearly superior in all types of content (M+, PVP, RAID, Open world).

This is not a free choice. This is giving people a choice of 4 cars and one of them is a brand new Supercar and the other 3 are 5 year old Honda Civics or other regular cars. I tried playing around the Kyrian choice but I just can't justify going with anything else because even if one of the powers is competitive the Phial is just so much better to everything else out there there is no competition really if you are even remotely trying to make your character best it can be.