Can we finally get some balance for Covenants?

[Hollycakes]

It's a game dude. If you want cOnSeQuEnCeS, leave your room and participate in real life.

Intenz is right. Covenants are a fine concept, as long as they can properly balance it, and well they can't. Not like it comes as any surprise really, we have years of experience when it comes to Blizzard missing the mark.

You must be delusional to think that creating a system that punishes you, in a game that's supposed to be entertainment, for which you have to pay to be able to play, is a fine concept. Like wtf dude.

I stopped reading right here. Anyone care to explain why he received an infraction for this post? The mods here are questionable to say the least.

[T-34]

Are you really trying to use an unreliable source like fucking raider.io of all things as your statistical basis?

This conversation is pointless.

Raider.io pulls that data from Blizzard's API = the data is publicly available.
Or are you suggesting that Raider.Io fakes the data?

[ohwell]

What you seem to be missing OP, is that balanced doesn't equal everything being the same. The covenants are balanced. It's just that some of them have slightly better performance for certain things, which is more than fine. If you want to maximize a certain aspect of your character, use the relevant covenant. If you don't care about minmaxing, no one forces you.

I mean hell Kyrian have some of the WORST dungeon buffs honestly. 2 of them are in ridiculous locations requiring you to clear more mobs for a minimal buff for Necrotic and then the one in spires is decent at best.

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I stopped reading right here. Anyone care to explain why he received an infraction for this post? The mods here are questionable to say the least.

You're not allowed to say anything that could even be remotely taken as insulting even if you can prove it is true. Like I could show someone's literal IQ test score that they gave me and use it saying they are mentally handicapped if it was below the level for that and still could get infracted because you're not allowed to call someone mentally handicapped. The infraction more than likely came from calling someone delusional.

I mean then again what we're doing right now is also infractable as you're technically not allowed to discuss moderation(aka they don't like getting called out like you did even if they're wrong which they aren't technically in this case, just a bit silly).

Also I think TECHNICALLY they don't want you falsely paraphrasing someone to make them seem stupid like he did with the caps lowercase in the first sentence.

[Makabreska]

Are you really trying to use an unreliable source like fucking raider.io of all things as your statistical basis?

This conversation is pointless.

Then with what data will you counter that, because Raider.io grabs it from Blizz API?

[Doffen]

Then with what data will you counter that, because Raider.io grabs it from Blizz API?

Wrong numbers on my part.

[A Chozo]

Then with what data will you counter that

There's no reliable data and anyone (me included) that claims that a majority or a minority likes to do something or whatever is bullshiting, and anyone that claims that there's reliable data is just lying.

We can have plenty of discussions without people using magical statistics as arguments. It's not needed. People can advocate for a more balanced game - their opinions matter even if we don't know the popularity of such activity.

There's no way to know how many players sub for Shadowlands, bought it or not even any approximation. Any data trying to say that "almost every player do this" is baseless because they depend on the total population. It's like knowing that X-2 do Pet Battles, but we don't know X so it's all bogus.

[Kithelle]

LOL the game is in no way punishing you. You can complete all content regardless of what covenant you have. You call anything "punishment" that doesn't allow you to top the meters. Choice is what enhances games. To have choice you need to have consequences for choice. It is funny you talk about real life because I would love to see you try to use your entitlement attitude in the real world and tell everyone to give you whatever you want. I would love to see how far you get.

Player entitlement like yours is why the game is such a sorry state.

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Exactly. Everything is a player problem not a game problem whic is created by players incessant need to be at the top of the meters and believing that is the only way you can play the game is via God mode. They aren't willing to understand that you do not have to top the meters to complete all content nor do have to be at the best you can possibly be to complete content either.

The irony is it's probably the same type of players who complain that there is no RPG in WoW anymore, and when the Devs finally add a aspect they complain

[Krakan]

The irony is it's probably the same type of players who complain that there is no RPG in WoW anymore, and when the Devs finally add a aspect they complain

People talking about rpg as a concept to push their own design ideas are idoits to start with given how broad of genre that is and the fact wow is a mmo first and a rpg second.

Right now covenants work... everyone plays their meta so you know what your getting with each group. It kinda sucks for people who enjoy pve and pvp but overall this blundered system is best left untouched then discarded after this expac. Trying to balance it is just gonna make things worse.

[munkeyinorbit]

Sigh...I wish I would not be forced to go Kyrian on every Tank toon I have except Druid for the freaking Phial.

Last week I switched back from Kyrian to Necrolord on my Brewmaster monk just to wrap up the campaign. I learned the hard way that there is an actual additional CD in place before you can take the quest to rejoin previous covenant outside of the two reset rule for the two quests but that is yet another topic.

I tried doing M+ with my group this week and I know that Necrotic is generally awful and was a pain to play around being a tank even before SL but for tanks that are not Kyrian it seems almost crazy.

I may not be the best but with Kyrian covenant I am doing 14s for weekly and 12-13s regularly. Yesterday, we tried doing Theatre of Pain 14. Died multiple times up to the 1st boss and on the 1st boss because I could not clear stacks. Tried doing 13, boss stacks Necrotic so high I can't survive and I tried kiting and shit. Maybe I had a case of dementia yesterday or maybe I was particularly bad at the game but having one covenant actually miles easier to do dungeons with from the other 3 with one of those 3 not even considered by most of the classes that tank is ridiculous!

Can we get some kind of balance patch between covenants for crying out loud!? Even outside Necrotic, Kyrians are so much better for tanks that you have to consciously handicap yourself to play anything else! Player's choice my ass!

I realize this post has probably been put out before but after what happened yesterday I kind of need to say it out loud, it's so frustrating.

Every time Blizzard is told by the testers that something like locking player power behind a choice that is semi-permanent is a bad idea and every time (just like with Azerite armor) they choose not to listen and lo and behold, most classes went with what sims best and 75% of tanks from all classes went Kyrian mainly for the phial. This is absurd. And now instead of fixing it asap they will wait another 2 months before they decide to do anything about it just like the last time if they even admit making a mistake at all.

It's so freaking idiotic I am lost for words.

This is a L2P issue. There are no covenants that make it so you cannot do content. It is skill or hear that is the only barrier. Also look up what "lost for words" actually means. You may be wrong but you said a lot of words. It looks like you are in fact the opposite of lost for words. You are found for words?

[Hollycakes]

Ah ok. It seemed more rhetorical/joking than serious. I see so much worse here. Thanks guys. Forgot about the fight club rules tho, my fault.

Somehow always find myself agreeing with what Det says too. Is that weird? lol

[MrTowley]

I think you as a player have to choose why you play.

- Is it to be the best possible class, spec, role and min -> max on everything ?
- Is it for roleplay? To make your decisions based on lore, what fits your class fantasy the most?

Blizz role is to make it possible for you as a player to be able to complete (with a little skill ofc) the normal content even tho you´re not min maxing. But to say that blizz has to balance all possible roads for a class is just to much to ask for. In my opinion!

For me I leveled a Shadow Priest, love the Venthyr lore and feel. Now I play more Disc, and there it is some better alternatives. But I won´t change from my vampire bros! <3

[Alubobz]

You're underestimating the massive benefit of the flask in necrotic weeks because it clears your stacks. This is enormous and is effectively a free wipe saver when someone messes up and pulls extra, or if you're just a bit too aggressive and need a pick me up. Boom - 25% health back, and the 50% healing debuff (and dot) is gone. There are, I believe, two bosses where you can't reset your stacks at all, which means using the kyrian flask halfway through the fight is your only hope.

It's not like this every week, but with Necrotic it's insanely good and raises the group's ceiling, allowing you to pull more aggressively and increasing margin of error on fuckups.

Thats fair enough, its very circumstance. I not done hardcore stuff for a decade so out of the loop on all the intricate details of bosses etc, but i wasnt aware vial could clear dots (I avoid Kyrian, i hate their stupid faces)

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you have no idea about anything in the game you are currently playing, please keep ur un-informed opinion to yourself.

Good to see the community is still as polite and lovely as its ever been. Making assumptions of other people based on very little, i hope insulting other people to increase your epeen makes you a happier person in dealing with your clear insecurities you have in your life.

[intenz]

This is a L2P issue. There are no covenants that make it so you cannot do content. It is skill or hear that is the only barrier. Also look up what "lost for words" actually means. You may be wrong but you said a lot of words. It looks like you are in fact the opposite of lost for words. You are found for words?

"You can still do the content" is the most BS sycophant excuse. I do pvp, night fae soulshape is gamebreaking in pvp for any class that needs to kite/reset. So yeah, I can play a different covenant, but I'm essentially playing a gimped character if I'm not night fae. Korayn gives about 7% more dps in M+ compared to kyrian for me, so again, by picking kyrian I'm effectively gimping myself by the equivalent of several ilevels.

It's not about whether or not we can do the content, it's about fairness and balance. Many people feel either forced to play one covenant because it's too good, or they are trapped in a nerfed/bad covenant and have to spend weeks catching up and risking the new covenant getting nerfed also. It isn't a mEaNiNgFuL choice because almost everyone is picking based on performance data only, that's why night fae is so over-represented, ITS OP.

The whole system is a complete failure and I wouldn't be surprised if covenants are the single biggest reason for sub cancellations on their surveys.

[ActuaryBro]

Fun info(and off topic probably): We have 11.1 mill mythic+ runs so far in SL season 1. Exactly double the amount of whole of season 4(8.3) in BfA. Season 1 BfA had 8.8mill runs.

Interesting!

I think you are looking at the post-season 4 for BFA.
S4 BFA=29,799,395
S1 SL=15,852,240

[Gourbaak]

covenants are fine

the only issue was the table and it was fixed last week

[Eli85]

covenants are fine

the only issue was the table and it was fixed last week

They're really not fine. There are way, way too many specs that have 80%+ or 90%+ choosing one covenant—and this is across the entire playerbase, not just raiders or M+ players. If covenants were fine there would not be any extreme examples like this, but instead there are many. If covenants were fine, no one spec would have more than 50% in one covenants.

According to Blizzard themselves, covenants were about meaningful choices that stick with your character. Great, that is a sound principle in theory. But when you have 80%+ of a spec, whether they were casuals or more serious players, choosing one covenant, there is no meaningful choice. At all.

[Gourbaak]

because most players are meta slave who picks what method players picks without knowing why they chose that

[arkanon]

LOL the game is in no way punishing you. You can complete all content regardless of what covenant you have. You call anything "punishment" that doesn't allow you to top the meters.

This is it pretty much - this is just a classic case of LFR players complaining that they cant get into mythic raid guilds because of their covenant choice. This is players reading guides and saying "well shit, thats what i have to pick all the game will be LiTeRaLlY UnPlAyAbLe". This is a person looking at bis sims and saying "well thats a PERFECT representation of how this will work for me while progressing on my +2 key with 170 ilvl"

For the overwhelming majority of players, they will be perfectly capable of completing any content they want with any covenant they want. Will you get invited to a world first guild with a sub optimal covenant? No, probably not, but there are 200 OTHER reasons you wont be getting invited as well.

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because most players are meta slave who picks what method players picks without knowing why they chose that

Because that Noxxic guide they read said they had to.

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So yeah, I can play a different covenant

Thats all you needed to say to be honest.

[Tyris Flare]

There's no reliable data and anyone (me included) that claims that a majority or a minority likes to do something or whatever is bullshiting, and anyone that claims that there's reliable data is just lying.

We can have plenty of discussions without people using magical statistics as arguments. It's not needed. People can advocate for a more balanced game - their opinions matter even if we don't know the popularity of such activity.

There's no way to know how many players sub for Shadowlands, bought it or not even any approximation. Any data trying to say that "almost every player do this" is baseless because they depend on the total population. It's like knowing that X-2 do Pet Battles, but we don't know X so it's all bogus.

This is some really hilarious backpedaling from a nonsense claim that "almost no one does content."

We literally know that they do! In huge numbers! It's from Blizzard's own data!

[Xath]

Are you really trying to use an unreliable source like fucking raider.io of all things as your statistical basis?

This conversation is pointless.

You realize Raider.io pulls directly from the blizzard api right?