1. #4241
    I can’t wait to get a dragonsworn class where the /roar is a roar

  2. #4242
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Many.

    You're comparing what would be a regular class (ie monk, who also had very little background until MoP) to hero classes, classes based off of, well, heroes from WCIII.

    DHs worked being exclusive to NE/BEs. You have no argument other than "I really don't like tinkers and think nobody else should either".

    ...As is with all arguments against classes, nobody truly has any proper argument against them other than "I just don't like it and think you shouldn't either". This whole "butbutbut compare to the hero classes!" "Bbbbubtbutbut racial exclusivity!" "Bbbbbbbbbbb the WCIII bible doesn't say much about it!" "Bbbutbutbutbut X is too similar to Y therefore we can't have a class that shares the same aesthetics and ideas!"

    When we once had paladins and shamans, who were both bound to one race and one race only until TBC. When we have had monks, who weren't much of a thing until MoP, even having to borrow from Pandaren Brewmasters from WCIII. When we have DHs who are bound to two races and two races only. When we have priests and paladins, warlocks and DHs being classes thematically tied to one another but still being different enough.

    What's next? Necromancers can't be a thing because of DKs and shadowpriests? LOL c'mon
    The argument against Necromancers is quite simple; We have Death Knights that use Necromancy and can raise undead minions. We have Warlocks who are Dark casters and who can curse, use shadow magic and control a demonic minions.

    Necromancers really wouldn't bring anything new to the table. We have a class that can raise undead minions and perform necromancy. We have a dark caster class that can summon a horde of evil minions.

  3. #4243
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Lore characters allow the class to tie into the story better. For example, while Monks didn't have much to do with Pandaria, Chen Stormstout still did a few things. Illidan did the same for Demon Hunters, and the Lich King being the main antagonist did quite a bit for Death Knights.

    Which seriously throws into question the possibility of Dark Rangers due to Sylvanas having a large role in this expansion, and no Dark Ranger class being present.

    The lack of a hero character for Dragonsworn (and Bards and Necromancers) is a pretty big problem.

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    According to leaks, it was the Tinker class. It may have been scrapped because it didn't fit the setting of this expansion.
    That’s not how classes work and those leaks literally just got the name right

    The rumors of a class started because streamers were mentioning them off hand with no concrete name or anything.

  4. #4244
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    That’s not how classes work and those leaks literally just got the name right

    The rumors of a class started because streamers were mentioning them off hand with no concrete name or anything.
    Perhaps... Either way the lack of a new shadow/death class in an expansion themed like this one has thoroughly whittled down the list of potential WoW classes.

  5. #4245
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Perhaps... Either way the lack of a new shadow/death class in an expansion themed like this one has thoroughly whittled down the list of potential WoW classes.
    Possibly but we don’t know really

    I mean next expansion we might have the covenants pledge their purpose to helping us fight the next big bad and in doing so we get necromancer

    We could have the remaining dark rangers pledge their strength to building what their big mommy wanted and using the new mourne blade to make them sylvanas wannabes

  6. #4246
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    Possibly but we don’t know really

    I mean next expansion we might have the covenants pledge their purpose to helping us fight the next big bad and in doing so we get necromancer

    We could have the remaining dark rangers pledge their strength to building what their big mommy wanted and using the new mourne blade to make them sylvanas wannabes
    Nah. Blizzard expansions never have the same theme back to back. The current expansion is dealing with death and its full of Necromancers and death themes. That's not going to happen in yet another expansion where we're dealing with MORE Necromancers and death themes. The subs would fall off a cliff.

  7. #4247
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nah. Blizzard expansions never have the same theme back to back. The current expansion is dealing with death and its full of Necromancers and death themes. That's not going to happen in yet another expansion where we're dealing with MORE Necromancers and death themes. The subs would fall off a cliff.
    And next expansion we might end up having to deal with hordes of unshackled undead that have been rampaging Azeroth, since the Helm of Domination, that Bolvar used to keep the undead in check, has been destroyed.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #4248
    And my second post will be for . . . BARD SUPPORTER !!

    So at the root of the bard class, to my eyes, it's the use of an artistic topic into fight and support, unfortunetly, music is not a big part in warcraft universe

    BUT ! We have more unique things to make the bard fantasy into life and making it different from other game

    Let's look at lorewalker Cho and the tortollan race in general, in warcraft universe, word have power, litteraly, light user have blessing in book, mage have enchanted grimoir, glyph exist, and even pronounced word have power


    I don't have any idea of concept and lore supporting a warcarft bard

    But for the bard lover (I know you are), how do you see a bard healing through history of great champion, damaging foe with cursed song and word, summoning images from the past, or even incarnate them has the story teller is so invest in his story, he become the actor !

    I think we have more material on writing than instrument for warcraft bard

    What do you think ?

  9. #4249
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Eh, gameplay-wise it's all shadow magic. Warlocks, Death Knights, Shadow Priests, Rogues, and Demon Hunters all use shadow magic.

    We even had Void Elves and Forsaken who have shadow-based racial abilities.
    Except they really aren't the same thing though. It's not like Death Knights and Rogues have an overlapping theme. Same for Priests and Demon Hunters. The only real similarity is that they are "dark and edgy". And while I, personally, am utterly sick and tired of "dark end edgy", I don't think the playerbase as whole necessarily is or that Blizzard would let that similarity stop them from making another "dark and edgy" class.

    Yeah but wouldn't that require a lot of art assets? Gnomes and Goblins can't be Druids currently, and if you're jumping that far off the Druid theme, you're going to need new ability icons, names, and talent changes.
    Oh absolutely. This is not a zero effort endeavour. This requires about as much effort from the art and animation teams as a full blown class would. Just not from game design and management.

    When someone says class skin, I think of something like Druid of the Nightmare, where you just get a color-swapped ability and a different looking form. Like Bear Form is a giant spider, and swipe, thrash, and other stuff remains pretty much the same. Or Hunter and Dark Ranger where you can just turn your Hunter into a Dark Ranger and Serpent Sting turns into Shadow Sting and is purple instead of green. I think when you start having to add races to classes, turn Bears into Mechs with Gnomes inside, etc. you might as well start considering adding a new class.
    Well, that's what I told you what my theory for a Class Skin was. Yes, it's absolutely a high effort thing for this instance, but not every class skin would need to be such a big effort. Others, like a Necromancer, Dark Ranger or the like would be a lot lower in effort overall.

    But the benefit to this instead of a brand new class is that you can put out more than one in an expansion because no class design is needed. No balance implementation is needed. No balance testing is needed. You could literally sell your expansion with the notion of Class Skins introducing the Tinker, Dark Ranger and the Necromancer right out of the box. Then, you could add more throughout the expansion just like Allied Races. It's a great hook for lapsed players. Everyone who ever wanted a tinker will want to take a look. Same for everyone who wanted a Dark Ranger. Or a Necromancer.

    Well that actually might not be far from the truth. Development studios do have certain philosophies and guidelines in place for how their games are to be designed. It could simply be a rule that WoW classes are only to come from that one particular source. It's definitely a possibility given how often Blizzard releases new classes for WoW (which isn't very often at all).
    See, I don't believe that a studio itself cares. They look at metrics, not the specific content. Game teams care. Game Directors and Producers set the tone, give direction, and over insight as to where game designers should look for inspiration. What tone to use. What content should be added to an expansion. These people will give their individualized thoughts to this, and I honestly don't think they would ever handcuff themselves like that. Especially when we are multiple generations deep into the role, and the direction of the game has changed so much over the years. I think they took a metric ton of inspiration from WC3 because it was a popular game that helped them then launch WoW, an even more popular game. But I think they are fully aware that WoW has eclipsed WC3 and is, in a lot of ways, it's own beast now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagul View Post
    And my second post will be for . . . BARD SUPPORTER !!

    So at the root of the bard class, to my eyes, it's the use of an artistic topic into fight and support, unfortunetly, music is not a big part in warcraft universe

    BUT ! We have more unique things to make the bard fantasy into life and making it different from other game

    Let's look at lorewalker Cho and the tortollan race in general, in warcraft universe, word have power, litteraly, light user have blessing in book, mage have enchanted grimoir, glyph exist, and even pronounced word have power


    I don't have any idea of concept and lore supporting a warcarft bard

    But for the bard lover (I know you are), how do you see a bard healing through history of great champion, damaging foe with cursed song and word, summoning images from the past, or even incarnate them has the story teller is so invest in his story, he become the actor !

    I think we have more material on writing than instrument for warcraft bard

    What do you think ?
    As a massive fan of both Lorewalker Cho and the Tortollans, I'm on board. I love the notion of there being a kind of magic in stories. Hell, Blizzard released a short story with that as the very theme, which was awesome.

    I can't see a support role character though, as the game isn't setup for it. The idea of support pretty much went out the window in Vanilla. I would think that a Bard class would have to have DPS/Heal roles attached. Not to say that they couldn't have some buffing/debuffing abilities, but I don't think it could be a huge focus.

  10. #4250
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And next expansion we might end up having to deal with hordes of unshackled undead that have been rampaging Azeroth, since the Helm of Domination, that Bolvar used to keep the undead in check, has been destroyed.
    That already happened at the beginning of 9.0.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Except they really aren't the same thing though. It's not like Death Knights and Rogues have an overlapping theme. Same for Priests and Demon Hunters. The only real similarity is that they are "dark and edgy". And while I, personally, am utterly sick and tired of "dark end edgy", I don't think the playerbase as whole necessarily is or that Blizzard would let that similarity stop them from making another "dark and edgy" class.
    Well we shouldn't expect them all to share the same theme. The point is that they're all expressing different types of Shadow magic. What aspect of Shadow magic have we not explored yet? That's the question. Why do we need yet another class using shadow abilities when we have so many already?

    Oh absolutely. This is not a zero effort endeavour. This requires about as much effort from the art and animation teams as a full blown class would. Just not from game design and management.
    So why not just make a new class instead?

    Well, that's what I told you what my theory for a Class Skin was. Yes, it's absolutely a high effort thing for this instance, but not every class skin would need to be such a big effort. Others, like a Necromancer, Dark Ranger or the like would be a lot lower in effort overall.

    But the benefit to this instead of a brand new class is that you can put out more than one in an expansion because no class design is needed. No balance implementation is needed. No balance testing is needed. You could literally sell your expansion with the notion of Class Skins introducing the Tinker, Dark Ranger and the Necromancer right out of the box. Then, you could add more throughout the expansion just like Allied Races. It's a great hook for lapsed players. Everyone who ever wanted a tinker will want to take a look. Same for everyone who wanted a Dark Ranger. Or a Necromancer.
    I can see that being the case with Dark Rangers and Necromancers, not Tinkers. You're essentially making the Tinker concept aligned with the Druid class. Also if Druids experience some huge class change then the Tinker skin will need to have a massive class change as well because it's a skin of that class.

    See, I don't believe that a studio itself cares. They look at metrics, not the specific content. Game teams care. Game Directors and Producers set the tone, give direction, and over insight as to where game designers should look for inspiration. What tone to use. What content should be added to an expansion. These people will give their individualized thoughts to this, and I honestly don't think they would ever handcuff themselves like that. Especially when we are multiple generations deep into the role, and the direction of the game has changed so much over the years. I think they took a metric ton of inspiration from WC3 because it was a popular game that helped them then launch WoW, an even more popular game. But I think they are fully aware that WoW has eclipsed WC3 and is, in a lot of ways, it's own beast now.
    Yeah, you're looking at this from the perspective of WANTING to leave WC3 behind. You should look at it as WC3 is the reason WoW is where its at now, and their rather conservative class policy has worked out well for them, so why change it? Is there any MMOs around that are challenging WoW on any serious level? Then why change what's been working so far? Why introduce wild concepts that have nothing to do with the Blizzard aesthetic like the Bard? Stick to the formula that has made WoW the juggernaut that it is today and everything will work out fine like it has for almost 20 years.

    You can tell this is their mindset which is why they didn't release a class this expansion. They're sitting on top of the mountain and can feel like they can do whatever they want. You could see a new class next expansion or 10 years from now, and WoW will still be the top dog. That's why they're sticking to the formula, and the next class is going to be a WC3 hero export, just like the previous three.

  11. #4251
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    I think you're not being creative enough with how Dragons could be both a race AND a class.

    In WoW, Dragons have humanoid disguises based on the Mortal races.

    So, in a Dragon-based Class - Race-choice is merely the disguise chosen by the player Dragon.

    So a Gnome Dragonsworn is how you get something like Chromie, Night Elf Dragonsworn for something like Ysera, etc.
    Dragons are a fucking race. As I said more than once, making them a class is as stupid as making murlocs into a class. If Blizzard ever made dragons a playable race it would kill the game. Furthermore, dragonsworn are specifically NOT dragons. They are mortals imbued with a piece of a dragon's power in order to be their emissary and protector.

  12. #4252
    The Lightbringer Dartz1979's Avatar
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    No more new classes how about a dual class system like the old aota(age of the ancients) game used to do you pick a class level it to 60 then a npc lets you pick a second class you level it to 60 but wait theres more youy get to have access to all the spells/racials/skills of selected class imagine a mage/paladinc ombo that'd be cool would save on the character list usage.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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  13. #4253
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    No more new classes how about a dual class system like the old aota(age of the ancients) game used to do you pick a class level it to 60 then a npc lets you pick a second class you level it to 60 but wait theres more youy get to have access to all the spells/racials/skills of selected class imagine a mage/paladinc ombo that'd be cool would save on the character list usage.
    Blizzard can't even balance things when players have ONE class. WoW would become a train wreck if players each had TWO classes.

  14. #4254
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That already happened at the beginning of 9.0.
    Did it? As far as I recall, we struggled against them, but didn't wipe them all. AFAIK, we had our attention diverted by the leaders being kidnapped.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, for those who want to see a "Night Warrior" class, I'm currently going through the Night Fae campaign, and it is said that the power of the Night Warrior is eventually fatal. However, it seems possible to spread the power of the Night Warrior through several people, lessening its strength, but also greatly lowering its mortality rate.

    In the campaign, so far, they speak about spreading Tyrande's power with other former Night Warriors... but if such power is called again, and spread through, well... many living people, then it can become non-lethal, and we have a source for another class, there. Also, it has been shown that, despite the power coming from Elune, it is not exclusive to night elves.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  15. #4255
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Did it? As far as I recall, we struggled against them, but didn't wipe them all. AFAIK, we had our attention diverted by the leaders being kidnapped.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, for those who want to see a "Night Warrior" class, I'm currently going through the Night Fae campaign, and it is said that the power of the Night Warrior is eventually fatal. However, it seems possible to spread the power of the Night Warrior through several people, lessening its strength, but also greatly lowering its mortality rate.

    In the campaign, so far, they speak about spreading Tyrande's power with other former Night Warriors... but if such power is called again, and spread through, well... many living people, then it can become non-lethal, and we have a source for another class, there. Also, it has been shown that, despite the power coming from Elune, it is not exclusive to night elves.
    It was said that even when the night warrior's power was spread, it still killed everyone that housed the power. Furthermore, being a Night Warrior supplies zero unique abilities. It is literally just putting all your current abilities on steroids as you are imbued with the power of an exceptionally powerful god. Hence why it kills everyone that takes in the power. Think of it like the Infinity Stone of Power from the MCU.

  16. #4256
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually... not true. Paladins were bound to two races (humans and dwarves) and shamans were bound to three races (orcs, trolls and tauren) back in vanilla WoW. You can see it here.


    That's been the narrative of the anti-necromancer crowd. Well, if you replace "shadow priests" with "warlocks", that is.
    Thanks for the corrections!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The argument against Necromancers is quite simple; We have Death Knights that use Necromancy and can raise undead minions. We have Warlocks who are Dark casters and who can curse, use shadow magic and control a demonic minions. Also, seeing as how they made a new weapon type for DHs, I can see them adding a scythe weapon type for necromancers.

    Necromancers really wouldn't bring anything new to the table. We have a class that can raise undead minions and perform necromancy. We have a dark caster class that can summon a horde of evil minions.
    Necromancers would bring a ranged damage dealer which is sorely needed. Blood magic could be used to provide healing as well.

    They could bring plenty new to the table. Look up the necromancer class from ESO. There's plenty creature-summoning subclasses yet necromancer is able to stand out and provide something different. For example, corpse explosion, Kamikaze zombies, transformation.

    While those aren't unique in WoW, Blizz can undoubtedly figure something out just as well as they could figure out and implement something for engineers.

    There is quite literally no reason to go against necromancers or tinkers. While I love death themes, I do believe tinkers have more weight to them seeing as how bombastic they'd be and that we need more mail wearers. They could also be capable of tanking and healing, which is also a +1 compared to necromancers.

    But in the end, it is up to Blizzard. They made monks and DHs work. I'd be happy with either tinker or necromancer.
    Last edited by Stardrift; 2021-02-07 at 07:51 AM.

  17. #4257
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Necromancers would bring a ranged damage dealer which is sorely needed. Blood magic could be used to provide healing as well.
    While I agree that we need a new ranged damage dealer, I disagree that we need it to be a Necromancer. We already have a necromancer class in every respect. You can't really justify creating a new class because of a range and armor difference. The new class really needs to bring something new to the table.

    They could bring plenty new to the table. Look up the necromancer class from ESO. There's plenty creature-summoning subclasses yet necromancer is able to stand out and provide something different. For example, corpse explosion, Kamikaze zombies, transformation.
    Death Knights already have those abilities though.

    While those aren't unique in WoW, Blizz can undoubtedly figure something out just as well as they could figure out and implement something for engineers.

    There is quite literally no reason to go against necromancers or tinkers. While I love death themes, I do believe tinkers have more weight to them seeing as how bombastic they'd be and that we need more mail wearers. They could also be capable of tanking and healing, which is also a +1 compared to necromancers.

    But in the end, it is up to Blizzard. They made monks and DHs work. I'd be happy with either tinker or necromancer.
    There's no reason to go against Tinkers. Unfortunately there are plenty of reasons to go against a Necromancer. Namely the fact that a Necromancer would encroach on multiple existing classes and cause design bottlenecks all over the place. Class design and abilities is not static in WoW, so moving forward you're going to have to come up with new abilities for a Necromancer, Warlock, Death Knight and Shadow Priest and all four are going to continuously clash with each other forever. As it stands now, you can place all the caster-based Necromancer concepts into the Warlock class. You can place the summoning, undead, and Lich concepts into the Death Knight, and you can place the shadow-based healing concepts into Shadow Priests. You bring a Necromancer into that and now you're simply going to have a mess that really won't benefit anyone.

    Observe what's currently happening with Demon Hunters to see what pitfalls emerge when a class only has 2 specs to work with.

  18. #4258
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The argument against Necromancers is quite simple; We have Death Knights that use Necromancy and can raise undead minions.

    We have Warlocks who are Dark casters and who can curse, use shadow magic and control a demonic minions.

    Necromancers really wouldn't bring anything new to the table. We have a class that can raise undead minions and perform necromancy. We have a dark caster class that can summon a horde of evil minions.
    Look how your argument doesn't make sense: "The argument against priests is quite simple; We have paladins that use holy magic and can heal their allies. We have Warlocks who are dark casters who can curse, use shadow magic and fear their opponents. Priests wouldn't really bring anything new to the table. We have a class that can heal allies and use holy magic. We have a dark caster class that can fear opponents and use shadow magic."

    Your argument completely negates the necessity of having the priest class.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-02-07 at 02:41 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #4259
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Look how your argument doesn't make sense: "The argument against priests is quite simple; We have paladins that use holy magic and can heal their allies. We have Warlocks who are dark casters who can curse, use shadow magic and fear their opponents. Priests wouldn't really bring anything new to the table. We have a class that can heal allies and use holy magic. We have a dark caster class that can fear opponents and use shadow magic."

    Your argument completely negates the necessity of having the priest class.
    Priests worship the light and the void. No other class does that. Thematically you have a Shadow spec based on the Old Gods, and on the other end of the spectrum you have a holy spec based on the light and in the center you have a spec that combines the two together.

    Paladins don't use Shadow magic. Warlocks don't use holy magic. Meanwhile based on the tenets of Necromancy in WoW;

    Necromancers are practitioners of necromancy (also called the dark arts[2][3] or the black arts)[4] the study and use of magic to raise and control the dead.[5] Necromantic magic (or death magic) has many functions beyond simply raising the dead.
    Death Knights.

    Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases,
    Death Knights.

    harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy,
    Death Knights (and Warlocks).

    and chill the living with the power of death.
    Death Knights.

    Necromancy can also be used to reconstruct the flesh of undead creatures, allowing them to function again even after the foul monsters have been destroyed.
    Death Knights.

  20. #4260
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Priests worship the light and the void. No other class does that.
    Paladins worship the light. And "worship the void" is rather a meaningless descriptor considering we already have a caster that has a DoT spec that uses shadow magic, and can fear others and manipulate their minds.

    Paladins don't use Shadow magic.
    Venthyr covenant.

    Warlocks don't use holy magic.
    And death knights can't use poison magic.

    "Tenets of necromancy" is nothing but headcanon.

    Death Knights.
    Death Knights.
    Death Knights (and Warlocks).
    Death Knights.
    Death Knights.
    And we can do the same for paladins and priest. We can find numerous similarities between the priest and the paladin:

    • "The priest is the master of healing and preservation, restoring his wounded allies" - Paladins.
    • "shielding them in battle" - Paladins
    • "even resurrecting his fallen comrades from death." - Paladins.
    • "the priest can also wreak terrible vengeance on his enemies, using the grand powers of the Holy Light to smite and purge them" - Paladins
    • "The priest is a diverse and powerful class, highly desirable in any group and capable of fulfilling multiple roles" - Paladins
    • "Discipline and Holy priests are powerful and versatile healers with a range of tools for supporting their allies" - Paladins
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-02-07 at 03:15 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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