1. #1481
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Classic has extremely little content if you're not a raider or a serious PvP:er, however I'm beginning to feel that the content it does have is way too easy. Raids are cleared the first reset by most guilds and then you're back to raid logging for farm raids that are almost as easy as LFR is in retail.
    It doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment and the character progression is extremely slow, with new gear upgrades coming at you about once a month.
    It's starting to feel like, what's the point if there's no challenge?
    It's about the community. Which appears to be lost on you, so it's safe to assume you never played Vanilla WoW. You take LFR, group finder, etc as "content". Sure it's easier to find a group now, but you also have no proof that the people you are grouping with aren't bots. (Extreme hot take there, but you get my point... hopefully)

    Also back in Vanilla we had Thottbot and maybe a few other fan sites that helped you figure out how to do quests and dungeons. Now there are thousands of websites and thousands of add-ons that just automate your play. Oh a boss is about to do this move, this add-on tells you to move or interrupt. It's brainless.

    Did you ever just consider that Classic isn't for you and you should stay on Retail? And leave the people who wanted (and are enjoying) Classic alone?

  2. #1482
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post

    I never did it to prove that I'm some hardcore raider and honestly, if we'd spent dozens of wipes on bosses, I'd have stopped playing because that's not what I wanted from Classic.
    I'd argue that retail is a bit too hard in this regard. Hundreds of wipes on a single boss is exhausting. Sure you can do it on heroic instead of mythic but it's not the same. It's like playing Skyrim on the easiest difficulty, it doesn't feel like your actually beating the game but almost cheating if that makes sense.

  3. #1483
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I'd argue that retail is a bit too hard in this regard. Hundreds of wipes on a single boss is exhausting. Sure you can do it on heroic instead of mythic but it's not the same. It's like playing Skyrim on the easiest difficulty, it doesn't feel like your actually beating the game but almost cheating if that makes sense.
    So hard is too hard but you won't play on an easier setting because you want to feel like you're playing on the hardest setting but you can't because that setting is too hard?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  4. #1484
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    So hard is too hard but you won't play on an easier setting because you want to feel like you're playing on the hardest setting but you can't because that setting is too hard?
    Yeah I don't get that logic either. While I think 4 difficulties is 1 too many, it does allow players to find the one that suits them.

  5. #1485
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Yeah I don't get that logic either. While I think 4 difficulties is 1 too many, it does allow players to find the one that suits them.
    I honestly think 4 is 3 too many, but I do think there does need to be additional challenges.

    I seriously think the way ulduar was constructed was so fun for everyone. There was technically one difficulty, but every single fight was made in a way where you could either do it on easy mode, or hard mode. Some of the bosses even went so far to have 3 or 4 different difficulties depending on how you fought them. I wonder why they just tried this style of raiding out for literally one tier and then basically scrapped the idea forever.

  6. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diabloish View Post
    I honestly think 4 is 3 too many, but I do think there does need to be additional challenges.

    I seriously think the way ulduar was constructed was so fun for everyone. There was technically one difficulty, but every single fight was made in a way where you could either do it on easy mode, or hard mode. Some of the bosses even went so far to have 3 or 4 different difficulties depending on how you fought them. I wonder why they just tried this style of raiding out for literally one tier and then basically scrapped the idea forever.
    Me too. I thought that was a clever design choice. Also makes discovering those "switches" for the first time interesting.

    Basically, the way I see it, anything that stops players from mindlessly plowing through a dungeon or raid or w/e to stop and smell the roses is good design.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

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  7. #1487
    Classic isn't as hard as mythic (or maybe even heroic) raiding in retail, but watching all the raiding guilds break up in Shadowlands now their complaint is pretty much the same thing... 'i don't mind hard, but its simply not fun.'

    40 man raiding is Classic is *fun*. Reasons for wipes are obvious, upgrade paths are straight forward and knowable, and it doesn't take a 20-30 hours a week of attempts to clear the content. People who think Classic is nothing but farming consumes simply haven't played. World buffs are easy to get, PUGs are more common than they ever were in vanilla, and the content is not so hard that its insurmountable -- there's a few exceptions (Sapphiron frost resist, shadow protection for Loetheb), but that's at the very end of the expansion.

    Classic is *exactly* where the difficulty should be. Harder than LFR, more social than anything in retail, easy enough that anyone can clear the content with a bit of commitment and patience.

  8. #1488
    Quote Originally Posted by probert View Post
    Classic isn't as hard as mythic (or maybe even heroic) raiding in retail, but watching all the raiding guilds break up in Shadowlands now their complaint is pretty much the same thing... 'i don't mind hard, but its simply not fun.'

    40 man raiding is Classic is *fun*. Reasons for wipes are obvious, upgrade paths are straight forward and knowable, and it doesn't take a 20-30 hours a week of attempts to clear the content. People who think Classic is nothing but farming consumes simply haven't played. World buffs are easy to get, PUGs are more common than they ever were in vanilla, and the content is not so hard that its insurmountable -- there's a few exceptions (Sapphiron frost resist, shadow protection for Loetheb), but that's at the very end of the expansion.

    Classic is *exactly* where the difficulty should be. Harder than LFR, more social than anything in retail, easy enough that anyone can clear the content with a bit of commitment and patience.
    Well, my experience with Classic was that the levelling was somewhat interesting, but the raids were insultingly easy and not fun at all. The raids were a snoozefest. Normal Castle Nathria is leagues more difficult than anything in Classic.
    It might have been considered hard when it was new, but humans pass on knowledge and experience, so it is perfectly normal that normally skilled people consider Classic very easy.

    Blizzard has wisely made several difficulties in retail where people of different skill levels and attitudes can play with like-minded people.
    And while you value the social aspect high, and there is nothing wrong with that, there are plenty of people that value challenge, skill and effort higher, and there is also nothing wrong with that.

  9. #1489
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Blizzard has wisely made several difficulties in retail where people of different skill levels and attitudes can play with like-minded people.
    And while you value the social aspect high, and there is nothing wrong with that, there are plenty of people that value challenge, skill and effort higher, and there is also nothing wrong with that.
    This is where i will eternally differ. Infinite increasing levels of difficulty is fine in a roguelike -- which blizzard clearly wants to turn WoW into (and continually failing).

    But multiple tiers of difficulty for the same content is where blizzard started to go wrong, and its been down hill ever since.

    Heroic dungeons in TBC somewhat made sense. Then there were 10 and 25 man raids in Wrath, and normal and heroic versions. That led to horrible gear inflation, and constant catchup patches.

    WoW strayed away from the traditional convention of RPGs (when it was an MMORPG, not MMOgrudinglyrpg) and the game has just slowly, year by year, sunk.

    If you wanted any further evidence, the fact that more people now are playing Classic each day than retail tells you everything you want to know. Clearly for the rank and file players, the Classic model is better.

    for the 5% or whoever raid mythic (and many more people will claim to mythic raid than actually do it), they should go play dark souls or something similar. get their challenge elsewhere. its a useless demographic to chase.

  10. #1490
    Quote Originally Posted by probert View Post
    If you wanted any further evidence, the fact that more people now are playing Classic each day than retail tells you everything you want to know. Clearly for the rank and file players, the Classic model is better.

    for the 5% or whoever raid mythic (and many more people will claim to mythic raid than actually do it), they should go play dark souls or something similar. get their challenge elsewhere. its a useless demographic to chase.
    Ah, you are on of those "Classic has far more players than Retail-types".

  11. #1491
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Ah, you are on of those "Classic has far more players than Retail-types".
    Well, it did. Now, not so much...

  12. #1492
    Classic is fun as it is. The truth is that the vast vast majority of players just don't want a very hard game. Having a bit of a challenge is fine and fun yeah, but most people don't want very hard raids where every little error means death and where you're wiping for hours for not doing something perfectly.

    Just look at mythic raids. They're so hard that no one wants to do them outside of pretty much a handful of guilds. If anything, blizz should remove mythic mode and maybe make heroic a bit harder instead. Raiding was fine in Pandaria and before that, so why keep on making special boss encounters that eat up so much dev ressources even though just <1% of the playerbase are ever gonna see them, let alone regularly play this content.

  13. #1493
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Classic is fun as it is. The truth is that the vast vast majority of players just don't want a very hard game. Having a bit of a challenge is fine and fun yeah, but most people don't want very hard raids where every little error means death and where you're wiping for hours for not doing something perfectly.

    Just look at mythic raids. They're so hard that no one wants to do them outside of pretty much a handful of guilds. If anything, blizz should remove mythic mode and maybe make heroic a bit harder instead. Raiding was fine in Pandaria and before that, so why keep on making special boss encounters that eat up so much dev ressources even though just <1% of the playerbase are ever gonna see them, let alone regularly play this content.
    It's also a psychological issue. Some players feel that if they can't clear the content at the hardest difficulty they don't want to do it at all at any difficulty.
    In this regard Pre-WOD WoW was more inclusive since eventually any decently skilled guild could clear the hardest content, now they have no chance.

  14. #1494
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's also a psychological issue. Some players feel that if they can't clear the content at the hardest difficulty they don't want to do it at all at any difficulty.
    In this regard Pre-WOD WoW was more inclusive since eventually any decently skilled guild could clear the hardest content, now they have no chance.
    Yup, pretty much.

    Heck, at this point the vast majority of players have probably just erased mythic raiding from their mind completely and don't care about its existence. And now of course, I don't want to remove some people's fun, but mythic raiding specifically requires probably more dev attention than any other aspect of the game (or it is very high up there), so there really comes a point where Blizz should reconsider their priorities.

    I've recently watched one of the Preach's video about his guild breaking up and he said he was in this guild, because they were "only" raiding 3 days a week and besides that only had to maintain a few alts on a high level. The other (few) guilds on this level usually have (according to him) 5-6 raid days, constant split raiding and so forth.

  15. #1495
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    LFR is harder than classic lol.
    except this would be false, try to randomly pug aq40 or naxx and see how well that goes, and by randomly I do mean, invite anyone who wants to join, there is no determination or an endless pool of semi afk ppl to get you to eventually clear it. while the lfr has more mechanical complexity, you can do it with nearly anyone. while you won't clear aq40 or naxx with shit healers or undergeared tanks or ppl randomly going afk. it will be a wipe fest.

  16. #1496
    mechanically the boss fights are more complex, it doesn't mean those mechanics make the fights that much harder, in the LFR you can ignore most of them stand in everything etc etc. or just be afk. while you won't get very far in classics later raids with this level of focus. feel free to make a pug out the trade chat and lemme know how many bosses you kill in naxx my dude =) i can wait.

    I think you could easily do the spider wing and noth/hiegan maybe even razuvious with a pug, but I do think that a random ragtag group will struggle on loatheb, gothik and patchwerk without some level and combination of gear and co-ordination, without good decently geared tanks you'll die to hatefuls with asleep healers same deal, with shit priests, you'll be resetting razvious over and over again. without moderately decent dps and co-ordinated healing called out through voip you won't do loatheb. most of naxx requires voip while i have never known a LFR version of a raid since its inception to require coms. gothik isn't exactly face roll either, it requires some balance on both sides, this boss could in fact wipe pugs all day. just because the tuning is tight, the damage dealt to the raid is quite high especially on the undead side, just going in and one shotting this as a pug is pretty much never going to happen. similarly with 4h you just can't get instant cohesion it takes practice wipes for ppl to know what they gotta do.

    a guild that has raided together from the beginning has built up a level of cohesion lead by your raid leader, but most pugs don't have this and thats why it fails a lot. the difference between a raid guild that raids each week, vs random alt raid. the cohesion just isn't going to be good enough to carry the raid.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2021-02-07 at 10:16 PM.

  17. #1497
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    so why keep on making special boss encounters that eat up so much dev ressources even though just <1% of the playerbase are ever gonna see them, let alone regularly play this content.
    Blizzard said years ago that Mythic only takes up like 10% of their resources in terms of encounter design.

    The last time we had a "Heroic only" Boss was Ra-den back in MoP, Mythic only phases are also not really common, BfA for example only had single one, Legion had two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's also a psychological issue. Some players feel that if they can't clear the content at the hardest difficulty they don't want to do it at all at any difficulty.
    I think it's more that Mythic nowadays involves much bigger logistical challenges in comparison to any other mode.
    -Not Flex (fixed roster size)
    -Not CRZ (at least for a sizeable chunk of the lifecycle of a tier)

    Not to mention that you can also get a good amount of Mythic gear from the Weekly chest, so unless you make it to the later bosses, the effort has grown but the rewards can be substituted by other sources.

    From Wotlk - MoP, it was pretty simple, whether you were 10 or 25man raid, you could progress into a higher difficulty after killing the final boss, and get the best possible loot (doesn't work for 10man in Wotlk, but that's another thing).
    Now, you kill the final boss on Heroic, have to possibly recruit new people that only play on your server for loot that can be substituted by the weekly chest.

    I think in particular the transition from Flex to fixed roster kills it for a lot of guilds, previously you just didn't have to make any adjustments to anything, you just went into a higher difficulty, that doesn't work anymore.

  18. #1498
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Again, it is you that is extremely confused - its all there for you to see, or anyone - just scroll up. No one was ever comparing "complexity" with "difficult". The words being compared were Simple, and Easy. Once I was proven correct about what i said, you suddenly swapped to completely different words, then ran around waving your victory flag for winning an argument no one was having.

    You really need to lighten up - its only a discussion forum, you are taking this WAY too personally and clearly getting extremely offended.

    I really think the only way people will accept reality is if they play both - you wont need to go to mythic raids in retail to see the reality - normal should be enough. On a side note, many are saying the current tier is the hardest normal mode tier in YEARS, and I tend to agree.

    For any guilds that run normal as their main content, i suspect they will find it very challenging indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Must be nice to be a fully professional or at very least semi professional wow player. Do you mind me asking if you make more money from the world first race itself, sponsorships, or from your personal stream? I have always wondered. Either way all the free gear must be awesome!

    I wouldn't ask you to divulge which top20 guild you raided with during the most recent race, but how did you guys go? Did you crack the top 10?
    nah, I made money being a semi pro League player back in the Beta / Season 1. and later did the same in CSGO. Altho I guess technically I am a proffesional scumbag wow player as I lived off boosting people in Arena for a solid 6 months as my only form of income back in Cataclysm after my screwed up ass got kicked out at the age of 17.

    And nah we say top 20 because we got WR 20, usually how that wording is used. and since u arent interested I wont go into more detail regarding that, would take some time to dig up all the wipe logs of me just waiting on other people to figure out the fights and not making mistakes cuz the difficulty is so easy that if you spent even a little bit of efford preparing by theory crafting urself + watching the World first streams you should honestly never fuck up unless you had some sort of malfunction, a DC, bug, etc. altho I wouldnt be surprised If I dont even have access to those logs anymore since im no longer in the guilds and they obviously private log, So I'd have to go head hunt eye witnesses, which would truly be a hazzle. So thank you for being so benevolent.

    Find it amusing how shallow you have to be think that if someone finds something "easy" then they must surely make money off of it though. I found school to be a joke, Never done homework in my life, barely prepped for any exams, yet I graduated with top grades, so Surely I must have done other peoples homework for them in exchange for cash? or maybe the teachers were just so impressed they handed their salary over to me instead? Im a 2 meter tall guy who practises martial arts as a form of fitness, I found it easy to win fights against fly weights as a heavy weight easy, so surely I must be the heavy weight champion of the world right?

    I cannot imagine how incompetent you must be at life to find it hard to believe that people can raid near the top level (the point here is the lack of Gear, and killing shit pre-nerf, not that we would be able to compete with Method at the time) and simply not make mistakes on fights where you can watch other people progress it Live before you get there.

    its like being amazed someone had an instructor tell him what to do... and then he actually did it, wow thats insane, what a genius that student must be.

  19. #1499
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    Im a 2 meter tall guy who practises martial arts as a form of fitness, I found it easy to win fights against fly weights as a heavy weight easy, so surely I must be the heavy weight champion of the world right?

    I cannot imagine how incompetent you must be at life to find it hard to believe that people can raid near the top level (the point here is the lack of Gear, and killing shit pre-nerf, not that we would be able to compete with Method at the time) and simply not make mistakes on fights where you can watch other people progress it Live before you get there.

    its like being amazed someone had an instructor tell him what to do... and then he actually did it, wow thats insane, what a genius that student must be.
    This is some copy pasta material if I’ve ever seen it.

  20. #1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    nah, I made money being a semi pro League player back in the Beta / Season 1. and later did the same in CSGO. Altho I guess technically I am a proffesional scumbag wow player as I lived off boosting people in Arena for a solid 6 months as my only form of income back in Cataclysm after my screwed up ass got kicked out at the age of 17.

    And nah we say top 20 because we got WR 20, usually how that wording is used. and since u arent interested I wont go into more detail regarding that, would take some time to dig up all the wipe logs of me just waiting on other people to figure out the fights and not making mistakes cuz the difficulty is so easy that if you spent even a little bit of efford preparing by theory crafting urself + watching the World first streams you should honestly never fuck up unless you had some sort of malfunction, a DC, bug, etc. altho I wouldnt be surprised If I dont even have access to those logs anymore since im no longer in the guilds and they obviously private log, So I'd have to go head hunt eye witnesses, which would truly be a hazzle. So thank you for being so benevolent.

    Find it amusing how shallow you have to be think that if someone finds something "easy" then they must surely make money off of it though. I found school to be a joke, Never done homework in my life, barely prepped for any exams, yet I graduated with top grades, so Surely I must have done other peoples homework for them in exchange for cash? or maybe the teachers were just so impressed they handed their salary over to me instead? Im a 2 meter tall guy who practises martial arts as a form of fitness, I found it easy to win fights against fly weights as a heavy weight easy, so surely I must be the heavy weight champion of the world right?

    I cannot imagine how incompetent you must be at life to find it hard to believe that people can raid near the top level (the point here is the lack of Gear, and killing shit pre-nerf, not that we would be able to compete with Method at the time) and simply not make mistakes on fights where you can watch other people progress it Live before you get there.

    its like being amazed someone had an instructor tell him what to do... and then he actually did it, wow thats insane, what a genius that student must be.
    So first you make money from gaming then all of a sudden someone is shallow because they think you might actually get paid to play games. Then you equate getting paid to play games to cheating. Were you cheating when you were being paid to play? And then all of sudden you're a giant who bullies small people. Why would you even do this? Did Chuck Norris stand when he started clapping? All of this sounds like some sort of fantasy born from being bullied in grade school.

    We get it. You vape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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