The real toxic people in M+

[Caerrona]

I would agree with you except I think most folks here would agree that doing a heroic dungeon isn't going to prepare you in any way for a M+.

Not knocking heroics of course, because at least they're 100% inclusive. I often wonder if I shouldn't just forget about mythics entirely and just stick with those. The mythic community just seems incredibly harsh and unforgiving.

Heroics/m0s are good places to learn base mechanics (some differences between heroic and mythic though.)

The discussion (atleast for me) was never about stomping new players or joining a +2 just to call everyone shit.

If you are doing endgame content (raids, rated pvp, m+) you are expected to know what your doing. I even said in this thread or another I honestly can't remember, that PAST A CERTAIN point where if you make *multiple* mistakes causing wipes/key depletes, you are toxic. You are intentionally wasting peoples time for whatever reason.

Raider.io and logs help but they are not 100% and don't account for people being dumb for any number of reasons.

This game has a lot of avenues for learning. Its players that try to skip steps on the ladder that come here and rage and whine about "toxicity" when if fact if they stayed in their lane until ready they are the toxic ones.

[Kaver]

The discussion (atleast for me) was never about stomping new players or joining a +2 just to call everyone shit.

Yes, I should also have made this more clear in my posts. The discussion is mainly about more experienced players who have been in the game for a while but STILL haven't learned the mechanics of the dungeons.

[potis]

The mythic community just seems incredibly harsh and unforgiving.

There is no "mythic" community, its not a cult of evil people that keep everyone else away.

Anything to like +12 or so, is a joke, +15 is a joke also, but because of that extra 60% some things can get tricky even for the more slightly skilled if they slack too much, luckily most things are fixed/nerfed already but there are still a few outliers.

The problem was and always will be, the knowledge of the players is insanely low and instead of trying to learn even basic things, they will always blame someone else.

And i aint talking about class rotation knowledge.

"BUt iTs a G@m3 aNd i pLay foR fUN", cool i play for fun also, but at the same time i am not a bonobo monkey that cant remember what 3 abilities do on each pack after 11 weeks.

[Tadkins]

But it's not about saying anything. You don't have to prove anything. If you go into a dungeon with the knowledge of what the different mechanics do then you're amazing. Even if you fail. Knowledge is power.

I've done a lot of raiding during my time in WoW, since WotLK, and for the most part I've watched videos on each boss fight every time a tier is released. I do it so I can say that I did it, but the truth is they don't always help. I'm just not much of a pure visual learner I guess. It takes actual hands-on experience for someone like me to finally get it and for the most part I don't make most mistakes twice. Sometimes I do, even in BfA I'd still slip up in Freehold occasionally despite running it for the 20th time. No one is perfect.

Heroics/m0s are good places to learn base mechanics (some differences between heroic and mythic though.)

The discussion (atleast for me) was never about stomping new players or joining a +2 just to call everyone shit.

If you are doing endgame content (raids, rated pvp, m+) you are expected to know what your doing. I even said in this thread or another I honestly can't remember, that PAST A CERTAIN point where if you make *multiple* mistakes causing wipes/key depletes, you are toxic. You are intentionally wasting peoples time for whatever reason.

Raider.io and logs help but they are not 100% and don't account for people being dumb for any number of reasons.

This game has a lot of avenues for learning. Its players that try to skip steps on the ladder that come here and rage and whine about "toxicity" when if fact if they stayed in their lane until ready they are the toxic ones.

That is just what it feels like this thread is. "If you're not perfect, if you mess up in any way, if you don't 100% know everything about the instance right away, you're the one being toxic."

Even when you're trying to stay at a low level to learn, even if it's something like a M0 or a +2.

[Caerrona]

Yes, I should also have made this more clear in my posts. The discussion is mainly about more experienced players who have been in the game for a while but STILL haven't learned the mechanics of the dungeons.

Nah i got ya, I was referring more to the person that said they came back/are new and don't feel like they can do dungeons without getting crapped on.

Yeah I do understand mistakes happen, I do stupid shit every once in awhile and just face palm and laugh it off with the crew but watching some people with 100s of completed dungeons and way above average io repeatedly do some of the dumbest shit imaginable is crazy to me. That is way more toxic to me then getting mad and leaving a key.

[Tadkins]

Nah i got ya, I was referring more to the person that said they came back/are new and don't feel like they can do dungeons without getting crapped on.

I do feel like this is the case. This thread has gotten me even more scared to try to do dungeons, because I don't want to be labeled as toxic for making a mistake. Not that my confidence levels were very high to begin with though.

Yeah I do understand mistakes happen, I do stupid shit every once in awhile and just face palm and laugh it off with the crew but watching some people with 100s of completed dungeons and way above average io repeatedly do some of the dumbest shit imaginable is crazy to me. That is way more toxic to me then getting mad and leaving a key.

I'd love to find a group that can just laugh mistakes off.

[Aurora]

I would agree with you except I think most folks here would agree that doing a heroic dungeon isn't going to prepare you in any way for a M+.

Not knocking heroics of course, because at least they're 100% inclusive. I often wonder if I shouldn't just forget about mythics entirely and just stick with those. The mythic community just seems incredibly harsh and unforgiving.

The community is far more forgiving at the start of the expansion when most people are still learning and they haven't yet become jaded from running the same dungeon for the 56th time. I think it's a big problem for the game that there's no real pathway for others to catch up later since you'll find very little of that tolerance at the moment as seen in this thread.

You'll learn very little from heroic or m0 as you suspect, so many mechanics can just be ignored without any kind of consequence. The best way to learn is to jump in to m+ and make the same mistakes everyone else did a couple of months ago (very few ever read the guide either). It's just unfortunate if you feel you can't do that without being insulted or shamed for lack of experience.

[munkeyinorbit]

You literally looked at a fraction of their post and posted this ridiculous comment. What they're saying is that people who have no idea what they're doing in m+ are toxic and mention missed interrupts as just one example.

This is the sort of response that I would expect from a toxic person. People make a mistake and all of a sudden they're toxic? No. It's the people who expect others to be perfect while themselves need to be forgiven for mistakes.

[T-34]

Not knocking heroics of course, because at least they're 100% inclusive. I often wonder if I shouldn't just forget about mythics entirely and just stick with those. The mythic community just seems incredibly harsh and unforgiving.

It is very easy. You start a group in group finder a dungeon on Mythic 0, for example Necrotic Wake, and in the description you write "Learning group. Prepare to wipe with a smile" and you will get people applying that suits your playstyle. And you might meet people that have the same definition of fun as you do and then you add them to your btag and in no time you will have friends to do dungeons with.
And when you time your M0 and get your upgraded key and you liked your group then you ask them: "Shall we do the upgraded key?".

Expecting that strangers will make groups that accommodates exactly your personality, playstyle and definition of fun is naive at best.

[Karlz0rz]

Please tell me if you're trolling now. Because it seems like you're actively trying to miss my point.

I said you're lazy if you go into a dungeon without be prepared. It has nothing to do with skills. Knowing the mechanics of a dungeon will significantly increase your performance. It's toxic to partake in group content when you're knowingly not prepared. There is no excuse for not knowing dungeon mechanics when information is available on all websites. Again, not about skills.

It's not toxic to be a bad player. But it's toxic to be an unprepared player. Know the difference.

I mean, clearly I am trolling for having the majority outlook on this matter :P.
Your way of thinking someone is toxic, is sooo far away from what normal people consider toxic, I'm not even sure we are playing the same game!
Like I said earlier, INTENTION matters.
You can go in without knowing the dungeon, on the pretense of actually learning it, and not be toxic.

See how you resorted to calling me a troll? I'm getting the impression that you are EXACTLY the kind of person that would be toxic in a group...
Let me guess, you instantly call people out for doing "something wrong", or having too low DPS/healing/tanking incorrectly?

[Penduliar]

This post is toxic.

[Nyxblow]

Can you be truly toxic in a video game and be a normal, happy person in real life ?

I think both are mutually exclusive.

[ReVnX]

I have not seen any other community that's this absurdly elitist while being just average at the game

[BigZik]

I think the mindset you have where you expect random people you decided to pick up to play 100% the way you expect them to, is more toxic than the players you describe.

In fact, being bad is not the same as being toxic at all. It's the people spewing shit at them over the slightest mistake, instead of trying to identify the problem with them and at least make an attempt help fix it, thar are toxic.

If you don't like playing with people that mess up or don't play the way you expect them to, don't pug.

[Garymorilix]

This is always an interesting question when it comes to any online game where a competitive mode pits strangers together to win.
From the moment you join a key your goal is to time that key. That is how the system is set up, that is the only finish line regarding m+.

The question is whether you being ignorant to the point where you are a liability to your team is toxic?

Whether you being unable to handle the dungeon's mechanics and causing others to be frustrated solely because of your ignorance and/or laziness is toxic?

I would say yes.

Let's assume I'm making a group for a +15 dungeon. A +15 group already has the expectation that everyone KNOWS what to do, what to kill, what to cc and where to go.
If you fail the know the dungeon at a +15 level, why do you join a +15?
You are just making people mad and then protect yourself by saying that "they are toxic". I mean, yea, it sucks when you're called names but MAYBE you wouldn't be called names if you did more than 2k overall dps and did not get knocked off every single platform in Theatre.

Either we treat people like individuals or we treat them like groups.
Can group X never be called trash because they are "expected" to fail? No.
Everyone is responsible for themselves and for the mistakes they make.
Sometimes this means you dont time a key, sometimes this means you get called out on your bullshit.

Remember: nobody has ever flamed a person who played good.

These mental gymnastics of "but they should learn somewhere" and bullshit is just dated.
There are 9 key levels below a 10, 14 key levels below a 15 where you can learn.

[Kaver]

I mean, clearly I am trolling for having the majority outlook on this matter :P.
Your way of thinking someone is toxic, is sooo far away from what normal people consider toxic, I'm not even sure we are playing the same game!
Like I said earlier, INTENTION matters.
You can go in without knowing the dungeon, on the pretense of actually learning it, and not be toxic.

See how you resorted to calling me a troll? I'm getting the impression that you are EXACTLY the kind of person that would be toxic in a group...
Let me guess, you instantly call people out for doing "something wrong", or having too low DPS/healing/tanking incorrectly?

Let's not make this personal. I didn't call you a troll. Your question just seemed to have ill intent because I have clearly stated that it's about preparation and not skill. But I trust it's just a misunderstanding. Let's leave the personal attacks behind.

I need to make it clear, that I'm not talking about new players who just got into the game. Of course everyone is allowed to learn the game from playing to some degree. But when you reach a certain level of content, then you need to know the mechanics to succeed. And at that point, it's simply not okay to not be prepared. Intentions do matter, but actions also matter.

[T-34]

I have not seen any other community that's this absurdly elitist while being just average at the game

That might be true, but I have not seen any other game with such a big share of wilfully bad players that feel entitled to being carried.
"Elitism" is the logical defence mechanism for people that try in order to get away from the "wilfully bad".

[Incarnia]

I to some extent understand where a lot of you guys are coming from, I however, don't completely agree with the overall opinion being pushed here, as being the factual truth of the matter of who the real toxic people in M+ are.
Low performers can be very frustrating, but I personally find them a lot less toxic than the big mouthed players that clearly have anger management issues. Not uncommon for that same type to also suffer from a condition called, delusion. Where they are overestimating their own skill/knowledge. The amount of dumb toxic shit I've seen from such ppl heavily outweighs what I've seen from simply clueless underperformers that aren't at all ready to pug more challenging keys yet.
Ran into such a person yesterday, he was the reason we didn't time my key. He died so many times, and wasted a lot of time releasing to run back when he should've just stayed dead. We didn't berate him for it, just threw out quick instructions to try to steer him right. The guy actually apologized afterwards, so clearly he realized he done a poor job. How is that toxic behavior?

I'm currently playing with people of varying experience and skill, but all of them are currently better than me in both aspects. One of them has been part of an boosting community for ages, and does all venues of the game at a high level. I like running keys with him, simply because all the knowledge he possesses. Great way to learn. I personally told my group that I don't feel ready yet to do the 14'-15's, a lot due to not having a lot of experience with all the dungeons yet.
You know what they tell me? If you don't go outside of your own comfort zone, and do the content that is challenging, you won't get the experience you actually need in order to be really successful at it either. I argued I'd like to take it a lot more gradually. But, ye I lost the vote on that one. So, I'm being brought to keys I'm very uncomfortable with doing currently, where I run into the feeling that I'm not always able to carry my own weight, and you know what?
My learning curve has speed up significantly by doing this. They were right.

Not writing this to say that this is how everyone should do it. It depends on how you as a person best learns, but also background matters. I did raid Mythic during Legion, and have had many years in serious progression raiding guilds before that too. Rusty knowledge by now, for sure! No, but, I'm simply writing this to illustrate that it's different for people. It's not either or, black or white, or even linear.
Automatically just calling people toxic that are currently not where you yourself are at in experience and skill is in my ears very strange. Sure call them that if they're having a shitty attitude or wasting your key on purpose, but otherwise? Naah dude.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

There's been studies in a lot of jobs and sports where its clear that fear of failure makes you fail far more often. I'm convinced WoW's toxic environment where people race to blame eachother just make more mistakes happen.
If you are doing content where you never fail yourself you're clearly just doing too easy content right? If you do content where you can fail and don't have any understanding when someone else does what the fuck are you even doing?

Never seen berating people help a run in my life. Personally have left more groups cause of assholes than people performing badly.

[Kaver]

I've done a lot of raiding during my time in WoW, since WotLK, and for the most part I've watched videos on each boss fight every time a tier is released. I do it so I can say that I did it, but the truth is they don't always help. I'm just not much of a pure visual learner I guess. It takes actual hands-on experience for someone like me to finally get it and for the most part I don't make most mistakes twice. Sometimes I do, even in BfA I'd still slip up in Freehold occasionally despite running it for the 20th time. No one is perfect.

But again, I never said you needed to be perfect. I just said that people should try to be prepared. Reading a guide will not help you with everything, but it will allow you to have an idea of what is happening around you. Especially in dungeons where mechanics are often much more subtle. There are dungeon mechanics that people will never learn from just playing the game. They will just die not knowing what happened. Now you can argue that it's bad game design which I would agree with to a certain extend.

But it's like preparing for anything else. It will not guarantee success but it will improve your chances of succeeding.