will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[Diabloish]

Actually Demonology outperforms DS/SnF until t5 levels of gear and even a bit into t6, so min/maxing would be to play demonology and be good at pet management and dot tracking.

Um pretty sure locks go aff until their gear catches up. Aff does shit loads of damage early on, the only issue obviously is that it doesn’t benefit from crit or haste so it falls off once you get good gear. Demo isn’t necessarily a meme spec by any means, but it isn’t min/max

[Kathandira]

I remember back then I played a mage... there was nothing more exciting than when we picked up a boomkin for raids (we didn’t have a solid boomkin back then) and oh man did my arcane ass love seeing that 5% crit aura along with being innervated every fight. Boomkins truly were the god send for the caster group when you actually got one

Absolutely. In TBC, not only was their damage worthy, and desired. They also still provided essential buffs to the raid.

[Tangra58]

Not really commenting on your opinion about tbc, because if you didn’t like it then you just didn’t like it... but most of what you said just simply isn’t true lol. Hybrid classes were top notch in tbc for the whole expansion. Were they pulling the top top top dps numbers? Not after t4, sure. But they were 100% needed in every single raid. You will have more support classes in your raid than things like warlocks/hunters 100%. Maybe you just didn’t understand how the flow of tbc worked outside of staring at the dps meter.

Even in pvp... yeah sure there were some really op comps... but really the only classes that were at a serious disadvantage was Paladins shamans and maaaaybe hunters. But even still, those classes had very good niche comps that could easily, and quite frequently did push rank one. Tbc isn’t just SL/SL locks and resto druids running everywhere. There were comps that demolished these comps that you probably wouldn’t even ever think of, like shadow priest rogue for example.

Sorry I stopped reading after "hybrid classes were top notch in tbc the entire expansion" because that is the most laughable statement I have ever seen on these forums. My argument is obvsiously RELATIVE, and compared to every expansion other than Vanilla, tbc balance was a tragedy. Practically every class felt pressured into only one spec, with some occasional niche use for the others, such as needing a prot paladin for a bunch of adds. You're just playing devil's advocate - the state of Ret alone back then was enough to make it the worst balanced expansion. I remember once my friend played my Ret for a bit and he asked me why I was using low rank flash of light, just to discover to his shock that max rank flash of light was healing for like 3% of my max health in full epics.

Raid comps were miserably restrictive also, to the point that you only needed one of some specs at most, arena was the same op comps over and over again, hybrids often had less utility than pures while doing less damage (for example hybrid cc was crap). Yeah with a lot of heart you can make tBC work, but relatively speaking it was trash compared to Wrath. Why do you think wrath came with such massive overhauls? Not to mention making all specs playable was very openly emphasized as one of the main goals of Wrath, including even prot pvp.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait I forgot that when tBC launched, Ret was the only spec in the game that had no resilience on it's PvP gear - talk about amateur hour!

[Diabloish]

Sorry I stopped reading after "hybrid classes were top notch in tbc the entire expansion" because that is the most laughable statement I have ever seen on these forums. My argument is obvsiously RELATIVE, and compared to every expansion other than Vanilla, tbc balance was a tragedy. Practically every class felt pressured into only one spec, with some occasional niche use for the others, such as needing a prot paladin for a bunch of adds. You're just playing devil's advocate - the state of Ret alone back then was enough to make it the worst balanced expansion. I remember once my friend played my Ret for a bit and he asked me why I was using low rank flash of light, just to discover to his shock that max rank flash of light was healing for like 3% of my max health in full epics.

Raid comps were miserably restrictive also, to the point that you only needed one of some specs at most, arena was the same op comps over and over again, hybrids often had less utility than pures while doing less damage (for example hybrid cc was crap). Yeah with a lot of heart you can make tBC work, but relatively speaking it was trash compared to Wrath. Why do you think wrath came with such massive overhauls? Not to mention making all specs playable was very openly emphasized as one of the main goals of Wrath, including even prot pvp.

I’m sorry, but just to see if you know what you’re talking about could you please just tell me what you think a standard tbc raid comp looks like? I’m really curious lol.

Also, there are 9 classes in tbc with 3 specs each... if you “only bring one spec per raid” then that means your spec is doing pretty good to be brought to raid lol. The only class that will have a high amount of raid space is shamans, which you will have 5-6 and they will be literally every single spec.

Do you really think raid setups are like classic where it’s going to be 50% hunters and locks? Because it’s not

I can bring up pvp in a bit but id like to stick to one topic at a time

[Mangokid]

No the toxic community is part of the player base and with so many people on each server your chance of running across a toxic player is much higher than it was back in vanilla.

[SirBeef]

I’m sorry, but just to see if you know what you’re talking about could you please just tell me what you think a standard tbc raid comp looks like? I’m really curious lol.

Also, there are 9 classes in tbc with 3 specs each... if you “only bring one spec per raid” then that means your spec is doing pretty good to be brought to raid lol. The only class that will have a high amount of raid space is shamans, which you will have 5-6 and they will be literally every single spec.

Do you really think raid setups are like classic where it’s going to be 50% hunters and locks? Because it’s not

I can bring up pvp in a bit but id like to stick to one topic at a time

I don't recall too many Shaman in our 25 man groups. We had 2, one resto, one enh. That was it. We had a solid mix of classes and were pretty balanced until the poaching started and we just stayed at 10m until WotLK we we got back to a consistent 25.

[Bigbazz]

Min-Maxing culture was massive in the TBC raiding scene, in Classic that information will just be much more widespread and so more common. But honestly, part of that will improve the game, The average player skill these days is much higher and people are more confident with their classes. It was quite common in 2007 to invite 3x CC classes just so you could CC an entire pull in a dungeon other than the focus target. That means stand infront of pack, mark all targets, CC them, pull, dps one-two-three.

That meant hybrid dps didn't have much luck getting invites to 5man heroic groups, which is why they gave more utility/CC to classes for WOTLK. Hex, Repentence were directly added because of the 5man heroic dungeon meta in TBC. In WOTLK that no longer proved to be an issue because tanks had AOE threat and could survive longer unaided, but in TBC Classic you will probably see more groups willing to invite hybrids as the gameplay focus is shifted to higher skill faster dungeon clears, not the "slow but sure" full CC method of 2007.

[Diabloish]

I don't recall too many Shaman in our 25 man groups. We had 2, one resto, one enh. That was it. We had a solid mix of classes and were pretty balanced until the poaching started and we just stayed at 10m until WotLK we we got back to a consistent 25.

Well since this guy is speaking in terms of min/maxing the game because he brought up class power, this is the context I’m talking under. You don’t NEED that many shamans, but top guilds are going to bring them. Why? Because heroism/BL isn’t raid wide. You need one in every group for dps phases. You can also swap shamans out from one group to another to give one group double heroism because there is no sated debuff. Not to even mention, without heroism, ele shamans/resto shamans/enhance shamans bring AMAZING buffs to your raid. And honestly, on some specific fights it wasn’t that odd that an enhance shaman or an ele shaman tops the meters. Not that they will for most fights, but the dps is decent enough to completely justify them being brought along with the buffs they give the raid.

[MatPandaZ]

Why bother playing at all if you just want to ....
What is wrong with ...

People just like you, just with a different idea of fun. You are being just as close minded as them.

[dacoolist]

People have been min maxing for years OP

The difference between the original / retail TBC version is that back then compared to now, we were absolute garbage - We didn't always know what was best and what to aim for... NOW - people already know what to do before it even starts, the games already been out..

That's the difference between 2007 when TBC launched to 2021 when it will launch again

[SirBeef]

Well since this guy is speaking in terms of min/maxing the game because he brought up class power, this is the context I’m talking under. You don’t NEED that many shamans, but top guilds are going to bring them. Why? Because heroism/BL isn’t raid wide. You need one in every group for dps phases. You can also swap shamans out from one group to another to give one group double heroism because there is no sated debuff. Not to even mention, without heroism, ele shamans/resto shamans/enhance shamans bring AMAZING buffs to your raid. And honestly, on some specific fights it wasn’t that odd that an enhance shaman or an ele shaman tops the meters. Not that they will for most fights, but the dps is decent enough to completely justify them being brought along with the buffs they give the raid.

You're right. I completely forgot about that BL wasn't raid wide at the time.

[docterfreeze]

TBC private servers were less played than classic ones, so the knowledge will be less fresh for most. That gives some leeway for the non-minmaxers.

[Tangra58]

I’m sorry, but just to see if you know what you’re talking about could you please just tell me what you think a standard tbc raid comp looks like? I’m really curious lol.

Also, there are 9 classes in tbc with 3 specs each... if you “only bring one spec per raid” then that means your spec is doing pretty good to be brought to raid lol. The only class that will have a high amount of raid space is shamans, which you will have 5-6 and they will be literally every single spec.

Do you really think raid setups are like classic where it’s going to be 50% hunters and locks? Because it’s not

I can bring up pvp in a bit but id like to stick to one topic at a time

Let's stick to one topic at a time indeed, for example we can start by you looking up the word RELATIVELY, since you're struggling with the concept. You're not comparing tBC to other expansions, making your argument irrelevant - you need to compare tbc raid comps to let's say wrath, in which case you will notice that Wrath raid leaders had drastically more freedom to bring the best player. I'm sure tBC is the best thing ever when it's not held to any standards, but compared to anything other than vanilla it was awful, especially the part where you could only bring one of some specs, if at all. What makes it truly the worst is how long the developers took to address severe imbalances.

[Kathandira]

People have been min maxing for years OP

The difference between the original / retail TBC version is that back then compared to now, we were absolute garbage - We didn't always know what was best and what to aim for... NOW - people already know what to do before it even starts, the games already been out..

That's the difference between 2007 when TBC launched to 2021 when it will launch again

That's what I keep trying to get across. We are different caliber of players now. We have had 15* years since TBC to grow and learn.

It's like when people say, "Man I wish I go back to then, with what I know now". Obviously because they feel with what they know now, they could have done things better. Well, this is exactly that.

[Tangra58]

Blessings sure were though, which made Ret useless until like the 3rd major patch.

[Djuntas]

OP, hell no- forget about it. I once saw a huge argument just about world buff pop in ogrimmar while I was on a bank alt...Fuck I like to min-max my self, its fun enough.

[Tangra58]

Yeah what saved shamans was that their buffs were group only and very good, other hybrids were not as lucky, other than maybe shadowpriests and a few others.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

Bro...you're delusional.
The game you play does not matter...just look at classic. What I experienced in classic was WAY more toxic than what I experienced in BFA and SL so far.
If you think people will miraculously change when bc servers are released, you are up for a bad surprise.

Also: Have you been playing on pve servers back in the days? Because I was active on 2 pvp servers and tbh there were also a lot of toxic people. Which you could dodge more easily because of fixed server communities but they were definetly a thing. Ninjalooting, wtjs leeching gear and jumping from guild to guild, constant ganking and corpse camping, people intentionally messing up dungeon runs because they got angry for some silly reason, insults, elitism...we had it all.

[Kathandira]

Let's stick to one topic at a time indeed, for example we can start by you looking up the word RELATIVELY, since you're struggling with the concept. You're not comparing tBC to other expansions, making your argument irrelevant - you need to compare tbc raid comps to let's say wrath, in which case you will notice that Wrath raid leaders had drastically more freedom to bring the best player. I'm sure tBC is the best thing ever when it's not held to any standards, but compared to anything other than vanilla it was awful, especially the part where you could only bring one of some specs, if at all. What makes it truly the worst is how long the developers took to address severe imbalances.

This is silly. the only thing TBC should be compared to is Vanilla. With each expansion, things changed drastically. The Dev teams learned from the previous content, and improved it in the next. If the point is that there is more flexibility in TBC raids than in Vanilla, that is true. If the point moves to, is there better flexibility in WotLK than in TBC, that is also true. And it is obvious why. There is no reason is pointing out the restrictions because that is a non-topic. Logically, with each expansion, things became more and more accessible because that was the direction the Devs felt the game needed to go for it to be a continued success. But in only the first expansion, yeah, there are still restrictions, but far less than in Vanilla.

But the fact remains that TBC will offer more specs than Vanilla did in Raids.

[Diabloish]

Let's stick to one topic at a time indeed, for example we can start by you looking up the word RELATIVELY, since you're struggling with the concept. You're not comparing tBC to other expansions, making your argument irrelevant - you need to compare tbc raid comps to let's say wrath, in which case you will notice that Wrath raid leaders had drastically more freedom to bring the best player. I'm sure tBC is the best thing ever when it's not held to any standards, but compared to anything other than vanilla it was awful, especially the part where you could only bring one of some specs, if at all. What makes it truly the worst is how long the developers took to address severe imbalances.

Ah nah I’m not gunna let you move the goal posts that easy my friend. I’m not arguing that other expansions didn’t allowed for more wiggle room to bring “whoever you wanted” this was your original statement so I’m going to be speaking under this context until you admit you are wrong. I’m not going to allow you to switch arguments like this isn’t what you said.

TBC was the most toxic expansion I have ever experienced. Raid, dungeon, and pvp balance was an absolute embarrassment - half the specs in the game were unplayable in serious content until the expansion was practically over, which led to absurd amounts of complaining in game and on forums. I also remember people pointing and laughing at you for playing a hybrid; that sure led to a feeling of community. Pretty much everything good about TBA you remember is just nostalgia - the expansion was the visually ugliest in WoW history, gameplay was full of issues, and laughable balance between specs/classes led to constant negativity and toxicity

Your original argument is not that other expansions allowed you to bring whatever class you wanted and tbc didn’t. Your original argument is that balance is shit and hybrids were a joke and never brought to raid (paraphrasing obviously).

So yes, please stick to one topic. Until you admit what you originally said was wrong, then we can have a separate discussion about how you think raid setups should be made.