PA couple shot over long-going dispute with neighbor

[Shadowferal]

Shit happens when you push a guy. Keep pushing, and he goes over the edge.

[cubby]

Shit happens when you push a guy. Keep pushing, and he goes over the edge.

Exactly. The pushee is at fault, but the pusher takes some of the responsibility.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It's actually a perfect example. You just don't like it because it ruins your whole narrative.

It's actually a shitty example. You just need it to be good because your argument hinges on it.

A bar fight is two guys in an equal level of involvement. Even if you lose you can expect to get out of the fight alive.

This was not an equal level of involvement.

One guy called the other guy a pussy. The other guy pulled out a gun and shot him.

[Shadowferal]

Exactly. The pushee is at fault, but the pusher takes some of the responsibility.

*nods
Not going get any further here.
Sone people have tunnel vision and can't see anything but what they want.

Three people dead...enuff said.

[cubby]

*nods
Not going get any further here.
Sone people have tunnel vision and can't see anything but what they want.

Three people dead...enuff said.

Agreed. A lot of people made great analogies and points though - wish they could have gotten through the tunnels.

[RobertoCarlos]

He really took it personally getting called a pussy. Its the last words he mutters to the guy as he guns him down with the rifle.

Dude was cold as Ice once he decided what he was gonna do

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Agreed. A lot of people made great analogies and points though - wish they could have gotten through the tunnels.

"wish they could have gotten through the tunnels"...says the man who is stuck in a tunnel himself.

- - - Updated - - -

He really took it personally getting called a pussy. Its the last words he mutters to the guy as he guns him down with the rifle.

Dude was cold as Ice once he decided what he was gonna do

I think he yells something like "You should have kept your fucking mouth shut" as he shoots the wife with it too.

Couldn't make out the exact words at the end because the gunshot covers it up...but it was something along those lines.

Also, when he comes out the second time it looks like he was pointing his gun at the bystanders that were trying to help.

[Bryntrollian]

Watching the video, I found it incredible how they were still talking shit even while being shot.

[cubby]

Watching the video, I found it incredible how they were still talking shit even while being shot.

The whole thing is just insane. But yeah, that part is an extra level of nuts. Topped off by the guy going back for a second gun.

[Adamas102]

"Hey, she came up to me and was super flirty, and even touched my chest. That totally makes the violent ass-raping to death totally her fault, right, because she instigated?"

That's not a fucking argument, dude. Unless they went and armed themselves with lethal weaponry first, there was no "instigation" that would justify shooting them.

It's pretty disingenuous to simply gloss over the difference between doing something innocuous like flirting or wearing certain type of clothing vs actively instigating confrontation or fomenting an apparently long-running feud. No one is saying that being rude should result in summary execution. From a legal standpoint the crime here is murder and I'm sure we can all agree that the victims didn't do anything that warranted them being killed. However, we're not making an argument in a court of law here and there's plenty more to this picture than just focusing in on the shooting.

Being a dick to your neighbor isn't excusable regardless of whether it results in murder, and getting killed doesn't absolve someone of any wrongs they committed prior to that. Again, NO ONE is saying that what the couple did JUSTIFIED the shooting. You're conflating a big picture view of the events with legal culpability. There's also nothing wrong with using this as an example for why being civil with people you come in contact with is a good thing. In this case there seems to have been a very clear pattern of incivility that eventually spiraled way out of control.

[Zaktar]

It's pretty disingenuous to simply gloss over the difference between doing something innocuous like flirting or wearing certain type of clothing vs actively instigating confrontation or fomenting an apparently long-running feud. No one is saying that being rude should result in summary execution. From a legal standpoint the crime here is murder and I'm sure we can all agree that the victims didn't do anything that warranted them being killed. However, we're not making an argument in a court of law here and there's plenty more to this picture than just focusing in on the shooting.

Being a dick to your neighbor isn't excusable regardless of whether it results in murder, and getting killed doesn't absolve someone of any wrongs they committed prior to that. Again, NO ONE is saying that what the couple did JUSTIFIED the shooting. You're conflating a big picture view of the events with legal culpability. There's also nothing wrong with using this as an example for why being civil with people you come in contact with is a good thing. In this case there seems to have been a very clear pattern of incivility that eventually spiraled way out of control.

"Be nice to your neighbor or he'll fucking kill you," is a stupid lesson to teach. There are plenty of other reasons to reach for which don't implicitly support the reasoning of "I'll kill this guy and his wife for calling me a pussy." Living in a world where we're all being nice to each other because we're scared shitless of getting shot would be stupid. Be nice to your neighbors because it makes your life and theirs more pleasant, even if you have a conflict there's no need to be shitty.

[Adamas102]

"Be nice to your neighbor or he'll fucking kill you," is a stupid lesson to teach. There are plenty of other reasons to reach for which don't implicitly support the reasoning of "I'll kill this guy and his wife for calling me a pussy." Living in a world where we're all being nice to each other because we're scared shitless of getting shot would be stupid. Be nice to your neighbors because it makes your life and theirs more pleasant, even if you have a conflict there's no need to be shitty.

Don't be stupid, there's no support for that, implicit of otherwise. Just like Endus you're conflating recognition of the circumstances with justification for the outcome. I was very clear that there's no condoning the escalation to violence. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that the verbal altercation had absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the subsequent shooting?

Yeah, there are plenty of good wholesome reasons why one should be nice to their neighbors. No one is saying fear of being killed is the best or only reason to be civil. If there's any lesson to be learned it's that escalation can spiral out of control. I'd be saying the same thing if this confrontation had ended in arson, assault, or just a continuation of their stupid snow shoveling feud.

[Lynarii]

Don't be stupid, there's no support for that, implicit of otherwise. Just like Endus you're conflating recognition of the circumstances with justification for the outcome. I was very clear that there's no condoning the escalation to violence. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that the verbal altercation had absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the subsequent shooting?

Yeah, there are plenty of good wholesome reasons why one should be nice to their neighbors. No one is saying fear of being killed is the best or only reason to be civil. If there's any lesson to be learned it's that escalation can spiral out of control. I'd be saying the same thing if this confrontation had ended in arson, assault, or just a continuation of their stupid snow shoveling feud.

The thing is, the outcome is kinda important. The couple that got shot were clearly kinda terrible people themselves, and frankly if he had socked them in the face then walked off, 'They asked for it' would be something that a lot more people would agree with. However nothing they did, not the snow or the mean words, in any way even slightly excuses an execution. And that's kinda the thing. "They were asking for it" is a justification for a reasonable, proportional, response. Once the response crosses that line, bringing up the fact that they were awful people themselves just doesn't matter anymore.

[Zaktar]

Don't be stupid, there's no support for that, implicit of otherwise. Just like Endus you're conflating recognition of the circumstances with justification for the outcome. I was very clear that there's no condoning the escalation to violence. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that the verbal altercation had absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the subsequent shooting?

Yeah, there are plenty of good wholesome reasons why one should be nice to their neighbors. No one is saying fear of being killed is the best or only reason to be civil. If there's any lesson to be learned it's that escalation can spiral out of control. I'd be saying the same thing if this confrontation had ended in arson, assault, or just a continuation of their stupid snow shoveling feud.

What you're missing is that there are many circumstances which led to the shooting. If they hadn't left their home that day they would have been safe. Should the lesson be: don't go outside? No, you're choosing to fixate on one which immediately preceded the shooting, whose relevance you lack enough data to properly contextualize, which fits into a story you seem to like: guy was an asshole so he got shot. "See what happens," you sneer. The reality is you don't know why this happened, and a number of things could have changed in the scenario to make it end better. A better one to focus on would be: if the shooter had gone inside and taken a deep breath, let go of his anger, he wouldn't have come out and killed two people, then himself.

[Adamas102]

The thing is, the outcome is kinda important. The couple that got shot were clearly kinda terrible people themselves, and frankly if he had socked them in the face then walked off, 'They asked for it' would be something that a lot more people would agree with. However nothing they did, not the snow or the mean words, in any way even slightly excuses an execution. And that's kinda the thing. "They were asking for it" is a justification for a reasonable, proportional, response. Once the response crosses that line, bringing up the fact that they were awful people themselves just doesn't matter anymore.

Those people would be wrong in that case as well. Escalation isn't justified regardless of where it ends.

Again, NO ONE IS EXCUSING THE MURDER. No one is saying "they were asking for it". That's the last time I'm going to say it because if it hasn't sunk in by now then we can just chalk it up to you (and others) projecting the argument you want to have where it doesn't exist.

We're not talking about some sociopath that offed his kindly neighbors. If the situation had gone from verbal taunts, to physical assault, to theft, to destruction of property, to rape, and THEN to murder would you be making the same argument? That nothing that came before the murder matters in any way? It's all just different degrees of escalation.

What's your endgame here? To pretend that there were no events leading up to the murder? Or that the negative actions of one party are no longer negative because they're dead?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

This was not a good man that was pushed to the limit by bad neighbours. This was a fucking time bomb just waiting to go off. If it wasn't this couple with their snow shoveling...it would have been something else eventually. Could have been a bad day at the office, a rude waiter at a restaurant, or a woman that refused his advances, etc.

[Adamas102]

...story you seem to like: guy was an asshole so he got shot. "See what happens," you sneer..

Fuck off, dude. At no point did I say that being an asshole should lead to being shot. You seem hellbent on arguing a point that I'm not even trying to make, so maybe you'd be better served finding someone else in this thread to project your straw men onto.

[Zaktar]

Fuck off, dude. At no point did I say that being an asshole should lead to being shot. You seem hellbent on arguing a point that I'm not even trying to make, so maybe you'd be better served finding someone else in this thread to project your straw men onto.

So why fixate on that link in the chain of causation which led to three people being dead? That's the part I'm missing. Why not focus on the guy who actually committed a crime?

[Flarelaine]

Yep, and I'm on page 7. I don't even remember what the OP looked like lol.

For the record, keeping gun control discussion in its own megathread is pretty much a standing rule.

You have been around long enough to know that.

[Slant]

For the record, keeping gun control discussion in its own megathread is pretty much a standing rule.

You have been around long enough to know that.

Guess you ought to move this thread then, don't you. Huh, if only it wasn't contextually sensible and we already had stopped talking about it like 5 pages ago...