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  1. #201
    I have said this since M+ was introduced. I love 5 man content and with the death of 10 man I find M+ the only real content I can have any fun with, but after about +5 I jsut cannot bring myself to fight a damn timer and watch the group deaths rise for no real reason other than lets introduce a bunch of 1 shot mechanics that everyone loves. I would love for there to be jus harder content that allowed each player to do their role instead of tanks having to run from mobs go get insta killed and healers having to do DPS to push bosses faster, I like just straightforward things like the tank tanks and healer heals.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Because it would ruin others keys.

    At normal, heroic and even M0 nowadays bosses just die too fast to even get an hint on mechanics. If I could try those few bosses mechanics myself in a safe environment it would be better. With AI nowadays should not be that difficult to implement.

    Apart from pools on grounds or things that “hit the ground in a well indicated position” I have very little issues with, I clearly have instead problems with “things that come to me at fast speed” (the excepion being Stitchflesh arrow) and I would really like to solve them without failing others keys.
    So somehow the lower difficulties are so trivial it’s hard to even see mechanics (which is very false for things like the black arrows on SoA 2nd boss and the chains in ToP) but simultaneously so intense if you focus on a mechanic and lose 1-2 seconds of healing you’ll wipe the entire group and end the run.

    Interesting how completely opposite things are happening at the same time in your groups.

  3. #203
    yes remove the timer,we will run dungeons with 5 tanks so no1 dies

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatao View Post
    yes remove the timer,we will run dungeons with 5 tanks so no1 dies
    I highly doubt anyone will do this, since nobody did it before. This sort of strawman is garbage. The timer is bad all around and encourages the wrong things and bad gameplay.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    So somehow the lower difficulties are so trivial it’s hard to even see mechanics (which is very false for things like the black arrows on SoA 2nd boss and the chains in ToP) but simultaneously so intense if you focus on a mechanic and lose 1-2 seconds of healing you’ll wipe the entire group and end the run.

    Interesting how completely opposite things are happening at the same time in your groups.
    At lower difficulties for example the black balls of 2nd SoA boss run slower. Also Stradama tentacles move slower and give more room to position. And at Stitchflesh if I’m not hooked I cannot try anything and usually after second hook boss does.

    Of course feel free not to believe me, no prob, really.

  6. #206
    Stood in the Fire meekus's Avatar
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    With m+ as it is now, you only really commit to 30-45 minutes per dungeon. I like that.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    if a healer dc's then you already currently fail the run so whats your point?
    Why don't you ask the guy saying dcs wouldn't matter for death count runs. How does that make any sense

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    At lower difficulties for example the black balls of 2nd SoA boss run slower. Also Stradama tentacles move slower and give more room to position. And at Stitchflesh if I’m not hooked I cannot try anything and usually after second hook boss does.

    Of course feel free not to believe me, no prob, really.
    On that note I really don't like the "add an extra mechanic at mythic" stuff they seem to be doing for precisely that reason. It gives you barely any way to at least experience/practice the mechanic before it "counts". Take a total BS mechanic like those orbiting balls on the second(?) boss of Sanguine Depths. They are only on Mythic, so you don't even know they exist until then, and they are so annoying that you really need to be able to see/practice how they will move to get it down since on Mythic people won't have the patience to let you try it then and you'll get the old "i'm not here to help you learn" selfish excuse when you can only learn it on mythic (and you see that mindset even in like a M0 or low key)

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    On that note I really don't like the "add an extra mechanic at mythic" stuff they seem to be doing for precisely that reason. It gives you barely any way to at least experience/practice the mechanic before it "counts". Take a total BS mechanic like those orbiting balls on the second(?) boss of Sanguine Depths. They are only on Mythic, so you don't even know they exist until then, and they are so annoying that you really need to be able to see/practice how they will move to get it down since on Mythic people won't have the patience to let you try it then and you'll get the old "i'm not here to help you learn" selfish excuse when you can only learn it on mythic (and you see that mindset even in like a M0 or low key)
    Yes, they could leave all the mechanics in lower difficulties, only with reduced damage (in % on your HPs instead of flat damage).

    The ideal would be having ALL the mechanics in normal/hc that do way less damage and are less punishing and bosses with a lot of hps so that you can see ALL mechanics and understand/practice them without the risk of constantly dying.

    I remember when I first tried normal/hc dungeons as healer, the bosses died before anyone understood what they did, when and how.

    This lack of knowledge often accompanies you even in mid keys, last week I ran a +8 SoA, we wiped at the robot boss, I said “dudes we have to stack when arrowed so bad pools will be all in the same place” and everyone said “oh that’s an excellent idea” (I knew this since ages but indeed) and in second try we smashed the boss easily. This is no Dark Souls, there should be a limit for trial and error and you should be given the ways to try at your will without risking to constantly ruin keys.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-02-08 at 07:40 PM.

  10. #210
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    The timer is fine but I'd like to relax the enemy forces BS. I get why it's there - it works against just doing skips and ignoring trash entirely - but to me you should not have to kill more trash than you'd do in a normal/heroic/M0 run and it feels like you have to.

    Another approach would be to adjust the timer a bit for lower keys since things below 10 don't really upgrade you much over covenant or honor gear.

    Yet another approach would be to relax the timer even more but to introduce death count. Instead of, say, a 30 minute timer, you get 50... but only X deaths where X isn't too low but also low enough that you can't just ignore deaths.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    We can’t improve because there’s no training mode of any sort. I would love not to die to some mechanics (see my post before) but I have no ways to learn and simply watching videos do not help.
    What the fuck even is this attempt at a point? Do you think everyone else who does M+ at any kind of level has access to some mythical training mode that you don't have? The "training mode" is running +0 or a key level that you overgear and just running through the dungeon. It's like you people think MDI teams play casual four keys a week for vault and then don't play anymore and they're just giant nerds who watch dungeon videos on repeat...

    There is absolutely no excuse for failing the timer and then blaming the timer for the being the problem. You have access to every tool that anyone else has to practice dungeons to the extent that you need to (and don't even pretend that you would use the TR and run dungeons 100x over to practice because you won't even run them on M0) and the timers, particularly in this expansion, are absurdly lenient already.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    What the fuck even is this attempt at a point? Do you think everyone else who does M+ at any kind of level has access to some mythical training mode that you don't have? The "training mode" is running +0 or a key level that you overgear and just running through the dungeon. It's like you people think MDI teams play casual four keys a week for vault and then don't play anymore and they're just giant nerds who watch dungeon videos on repeat...

    There is absolutely no excuse for failing the timer and then blaming the timer for the being the problem. You have access to every tool that anyone else has to practice dungeons to the extent that you need to (and don't even pretend that you would use the TR and run dungeons 100x over to practice because you won't even run them on M0) and the timers, particularly in this expansion, are absurdly lenient already.
    Unfortunately i as many have no access to the only two tools that matters to progress fast in this game: tons of time and a fixed group to play with.

    Also I just /pat on your rudeness, now you can go back to Oribos and spam your achi in the general chat.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    What the fuck even is this attempt at a point? Do you think everyone else who does M+ at any kind of level has access to some mythical training mode that you don't have? The "training mode" is running +0 or a key level that you overgear and just running through the dungeon. It's like you people think MDI teams play casual four keys a week for vault and then don't play anymore and they're just giant nerds who watch dungeon videos on repeat...

    There is absolutely no excuse for failing the timer and then blaming the timer for the being the problem. You have access to every tool that anyone else has to practice dungeons to the extent that you need to (and don't even pretend that you would use the TR and run dungeons 100x over to practice because you won't even run them on M0) and the timers, particularly in this expansion, are absurdly lenient already.
    And how many people will treat a M0 or +2 as though it's a +15 and expect perfect play, even if you've never seen the mechanic before? WoW pugs are selfish garbage of the highest order, expecting them to understand people are learning is a huge thing to ask of them.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Unfortunately i as many have no access to the only two tools that matters to progress fast in this game: tons of time and a fixed group to play with.

    Also I just /pat on your rudeness, now you can go back to Oribos and spam your achi in the general chat.
    Okay, so don't "progress fast", progress at a pace that is commensurate with the amount of time that you have to spend playing. Use a guild or community or forum (like the one you're currently complaining on with 10 pages of other friendless would-be MDI competitors) to find yourself a fixed group. Why the fuck is the answer to you having no time to play removing the timer intended to reduce the total length of runs? Why is the answer to you having no in-game friends removing the timer from dungeons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    And how many people will treat a M0 or +2 as though it's a +15 and expect perfect play, even if you've never seen the mechanic before? WoW pugs are selfish garbage of the highest order, expecting them to understand people are learning is a huge thing to ask of them.
    Uh, almost none. The only people pugging that low are other people without friends because people who are good enough to complete +15s in time normally have at least a small circle of friends who would be willing to either carry their new alts or would have alts to run similarly low-level keys with. Again, the answer to this problem is not removing the timer from the dungeon, it's incentivizing players to have meaningful social interactions with each other.

    You'd think with the amount of people whinging on this forum constantly about how "toxic" PUGs are and how "toxic" the "gogogo meta" is that there'd be enough of you to create the ultimate slow-mode 5man group that runs +20s and CC's every second mob and uses Windows Whiteboard to strategize every pull beforehand, but none of you do - you just make new threads every 15 minutes to complain about how there's no one else like you and it's therefore impossible to do what the other 99% of players do and just play the game until they get better at something. This whole complaint is as dumb to me as going back to 2004 and complaining that the STV fishing competition shouldn't be a timed event because that makes it too hard for you to get the rewards.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Okay, so don't "progress fast", progress at a pace that is commensurate with the amount of time that you have to spend playing. Use a guild or community or forum (like the one you're currently complaining on with 10 pages of other friendless would-be MDI competitors) to find yourself a fixed group. Why the fuck is the answer to you having no time to play removing the timer intended to reduce the total length of runs? Why is the answer to you having no in-game friends removing the timer from dungeons?



    Uh, almost none. The only people pugging that low are other people without friends because people who are good enough to complete +15s in time normally have at least a small circle of friends who would be willing to either carry their new alts or would have alts to run similarly low-level keys with. Again, the answer to this problem is not removing the timer from the dungeon, it's incentivizing players to have meaningful social interactions with each other.

    You'd think with the amount of people whinging on this forum constantly about how "toxic" PUGs are and how "toxic" the "gogogo meta" is that there'd be enough of you to create the ultimate slow-mode 5man group that runs +20s and CC's every second mob and uses Windows Whiteboard to strategize every pull beforehand, but none of you do - you just make new threads every 15 minutes to complain about how there's no one else like you and it's therefore impossible to do what the other 99% of players do and just play the game until they get better at something. This whole complaint is as dumb to me as going back to 2004 and complaining that the STV fishing competition shouldn't be a timed event because that makes it too hard for you to get the rewards.
    Dudes, really, can you ALL STOP pretending that doing 15s is as normal as having breakfast in the morning?

    It’s NOT normal, by the slightest. Catching up to 15 is the biggest achievement a casual player (aka 95% of players) can ever hope to get.

    STOP trivializing it and pretend it’s a park walk and ppl not there already are retarded. It’s really annoying.

  16. #216
    It would be too easy without timer, and you can already ignore the timer if you want, you'll get one less loot.
    I'm BM so PUG dont even group me, I have done the +15 achievement with mosty guildmates. You cant PUG if you're not a cookie cutter spec/class

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by BetrayedOf52 View Post
    If Mythic + timer was replaced by something else, whether it was a set shared death pool, or just made it more difficult with more engaging affixes that arent just passive % increases. Do you think you would find it more enjoyable? Or is a timer the best possible solution to making 5 mans drop relevant gear without just handing it out.
    Yes, M+ would be much better without the timer, however a shared death pool is much much worse and this type of content would be even more toxic than it is.

    Just be dungeons be dungeons. It's great that we have more difficulty modes and affixes, but all the competitive shit is so unnecessary and most people don't give a fuck about it.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    To me, managing CCs and avoid all the stuff is more execution than blazing in and aoe all the shit down because i have to zip through this. Guess what, in Cataclysm when they made dungeons actually difficult compared to the zipfest of WotLK everyone complained people was wiping too much and they were too difficult. So much for "ignoring 90% of a class toolkit", granted CC is one of those.
    Have you really played +15 keys ? Throwing a freezing trap that lasts 1 min and has 20 sec cd is not what I call a "skillshot".... anyone can do that, we're not in 2005 anymore.

    MM+ are harder than any previous in 5 man content... BY FAR

    MM+ is my favorite content outside of raids, all other content is trivial and/or boring. The maw is boring, thorghast is boring and became trivial with stuff

    If you cant time +15 keys, maybe it's just because you're bad...
    Last edited by vashe9; 2021-02-09 at 08:20 AM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Yes, M+ would be much better without the timer, however a shared death pool is much much worse and this type of content would be even more toxic than it is.

    Just be dungeons be dungeons. It's great that we have more difficulty modes and affixes, but all the competitive shit is so unnecessary and most people don't give a fuck about it.
    Why can't you let competitive people enjoy content that Blizzard specifically has made for competitive people and just accept that it isn't content for you?
    I don't go around on forums and demand that pet battles or mount collections should be removed because I "don't give a fuck about it".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    people won't have the patience to let you try it then and you'll get the old "i'm not here to help you learn" selfish excuse when you can only learn it on mythic (and you see that mindset even in like a M0 or low key)
    Maybe you should stop being selfish yourself. Expecting that other people should carry you and teach you is very selfish. Make your own group where you state that it is a learning group and your self-made problem will vanish.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...xMythicLevel=3

    This is a link to the amount of unique characters that have completed +2 and +3 keys in SL so far. We are talking about several millions.
    I must disappoint the majority in this thread, which by the way is a tiny majority in-game, that Blizzard will not remove the most successful addition to the game since the introduction of LFR.
    Mythic + is made for and used by all players in wow, from the most casual to the most hardcore, from the least skilled to the most skilled. It is for everybody and done by everybody.

    The people complaining in this thread should just realize this content doesn't suit their fun, just as some people don't find pvp fun, just as some people don't find pet battles fun etc. etc.
    Haha, this is literally the same argument that some people and even Blizz (which they later on admitted they were wrong) used to make back then about the Argent Tournament.

    Just becuase many people are doing it, it doesn't mean that they are also enjoying it. If we take a look at the stats you've posted we can also conclude that nobody likes M+, because in comparison almost nobody is doing keys higher than +3 (which is such an easy level that the timer isn't a thing really)

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