Would Mythic + be more enjoyable without a timer?

[Nzx]

Dudes, really, can you ALL STOP pretending that doing 15s is as normal as having breakfast in the morning?

It’s NOT normal, by the slightest. Catching up to 15 is the biggest achievement a casual player (aka 95% of players) can ever hope to get.

STOP trivializing it and pretend it’s a park walk and ppl not there already are retarded. It’s really annoying.

You people are out the fucking gate. What are you even complaining about? If even completing a +15 at all is more difficult than 95% of people can ever possibly hope to achieve, why do you even care? Do you get this angry about playing football in your backyard and not being able to compete for a premiership? Why can't you just be happy with pugging a 7 or whatever and stop trying to ruin things for the people who can do a +15?

I haven't got a problem whatsoever with people who push whatever content they find the most difficult, even if that is doing a +4 and just barely scraping in with one chest. That's awesome, good on you. But if that same person turns around and says that the entire game mode should be changed so they can do a +5, instead of improving their own play, getting better gear, or socialising more (in a social game) in order to play better tactics, then I have no respect for them whatsoever.

[RobertMugabe]

Why can't you let competitive people enjoy content that Blizzard specifically has made for competitive people and just accept that it isn't content for you?
I don't go around on forums and demand that pet battles or mount collections should be removed because I "don't give a fuck about it".

The dozens of competitive players that care about this stuff can have challenge modes like we used to have. Just make the timer optional and let players speedrun for achivements OR purely as a measure to increase the next keys. M+ were a nice idea to combine these 2, but the system hasn't worked out well. Dungeon participation is actually lower every expac despite record player numbers and the MDI bored everyone to death (including the presenters and contenders).

In PVP, going beyond gladiator doesn't reward you any loot either and that system worked fine since TBC.

[T-34]

The dozens of competitive players that care about this stuff can have challenge modes like we used to have. Just make the timer optional and let players speedrun for achivements OR purely as a measure to increase the next keys. M+ were a nice idea to combine these 2, but the system hasn't worked out well. Dungeon participation is actually lower every expac despite record player numbers and the MDI bored everyone to death (including the presenters and contenders).

In PVP, going beyond gladiator doesn't reward you any loot either and that system worked fine since TBC.

Would you be so kind and share me your data that shows "that dungeon participation is lower every expac"?
That intrigues me a lot.

P.S.
If you go look at raider.io and the amount of M+ that has been run then I get the distinct impression that more M+ have been run in BFA than in Legion, but maybe you have some inside data from Blizzard?

[Tronski]

Definitely. I'd rather spend an hour having fun with CC's and Heroism on every boss, than having to rush through.

Rather be blocked by a boss we cannot defeat than by someone disconnecting for 2 min.

[Caerrona]

Definitely. I'd rather spend an hour having fun with CC's and Heroism on every boss, than having to rush through.

Rather be blocked by a boss we cannot defeat than by someone disconnecting for 2 min.

^ people like this are so funny and so easily spotted. Watches mdi once, see fuckin gingi pulling the whole room and assumes thats what m+ is.

There is no "omfg rush rush gogogogo" in 99% that what to succeed. It's careful, planned pulls that your group can handle.

If you are trying to push to a higher key level and just don't have the dps then yes you might have to pull 3 packs here instead of 2 or some risky shit to make the timer.

I can instantly tell you don't do m+ (or do it to any level of competence) for your opinion to matter.

[Tradu]

Waiting for cooldowns isn't fun, so no, I'd rather they don't get rid of the timer.

[kaminaris]

That's because bosses have enrage timers, if they didn't you'd see every mythic raid stacked with 10 healers taking ages. Do you think people wipe 200 times just for fun instead of stacking the raid with healers?

If the timer was removed from M+ it would have to be brutally harder, and harder dungeons usually don't work out in pugs either.

Enrage timers please. If you see enrage timer some dps died in middle of fight.

And again, you are not forced to pull bosses in quick succession.

[Tradu]

Enrage timers please. If you see enrage timer some dps died in middle of fight.

And again, you are not forced to pull bosses in quick succession.

Or you're progressing early in the tier or a boss that's specifically designed to be a DPS check. The guy you're responding to is entirely right. Raid bosses have enrage timers in order to prevent you from just bringing a full tank+healer comp. Most of those enrages are very generous, but especially early in the tier there's plenty of bosses where the enrage is an actual consideration.
Both Sludgefist and Sir Dennis P3 are fights where people are only barely killing the boss before the "soft" enrage(in practice it's a hard enrage that you can heal through for a few seconds).

[T-34]

Haha, this is literally the same argument that some people and even Blizz (which they later on admitted they were wrong) used to make back then about the Argent Tournament.

Just becuase many people are doing it, it doesn't mean that they are also enjoying it. If we take a look at the stats you've posted we can also conclude that nobody likes M+, because in comparison almost nobody is doing keys higher than +3 (which is such an easy level that the timer isn't a thing really)

Hmm, that must mean that if people do pet battles, pvp or collect mounts then it doesn't mean that they're enjoying it or what?

[erifwodahs]

I highly doubt anyone will do this, since nobody did it before. This sort of strawman is garbage. The timer is bad all around and encourages the wrong things and bad gameplay.

No it's not. It's m+, timer is fundamental for it. Timer encourages having a plan, measuring risks and good execution of that plan giving you reward based on execution.
Ask for a different game mode, don't change the current.
For all I know, you might ask for bosses not to have punishments for going slow because your dps can't do damage while doing mechanics at the same time. Pretty much the same as m+, just 8 minutes instead of 30.

[kaminaris]

Or you're progressing early in the tier or a boss that's specifically designed to be a DPS check. The guy you're responding to is entirely right. Raid bosses have enrage timers in order to prevent you from just bringing a full tank+healer comp. Most of those enrages are very generous, but especially early in the tier there's plenty of bosses where the enrage is an actual consideration.
Both Sludgefist and Sir Dennis P3 are fights where people are only barely killing the boss before the "soft" enrage(in practice it's a hard enrage that you can heal through for a few seconds).

No.

If you are progressing early in the tier you are already cutting the cutting edge. Vast majority won't even see enrage timer if everyone is alive and doing their job.

Not to mention, failure to kill the boss doesn't force you to kill a random boss in one difficulty lower just to have another attempt. So comparing M+ timer to enrage timer is simply insane. Grass has much more common with moon than this.

[Caerrona]

Oh, I could completely reverse the question: find someone who is playing since start 10 hours a week max in pugs only that is doing +20.

Having lots of time means you can do more M+, thus getting higher rio, thus being invited in higher keys faster. Should not be that difficult to hint.

Of course ppl that play 30 hours per week doing mounts/pets/mogs run do exist but they are out of this context.

So cool, you don't have any answer.

There are people raid logging 6 hr weeks getting ce, I don't play much more than 10 hours a week and im sitting at 18s and some 19s.

You are lazy... enjoy your 7s and sitting on the forums qqing. Put in more effort... do higher content. Have more skill.... do higher content. Time is one of many factors and you seem to lack all of the above.

[Tradu]

No.

If you are progressing early in the tier you are already cutting the cutting edge. Vast majority won't even see enrage timer if everyone is alive and doing their job.

Not to mention, failure to kill the boss doesn't force you to kill a random boss in one difficulty lower just to have another attempt. So comparing M+ timer to enrage timer is simply insane. Grass has much more common with moon than this.

Not sure what your point is, but okay? People hit enrage on normal/heroic as well because they're progressing fights that are appropriate/just above their skill level.

If M+ didn't have a timer, people would wait for CDs and play degenerate defensive comps in order to complete higher keys. 3 tanks, 2 healers, while CCing every mob except for 1. It would be unbelievably boring to play. And guess what? Losing a key level on failure would make people more risk averse and encourage more waiting for CDs/playing turtle comps. The timer is the only reason people play 1/1/3. We saw the same thing happen on a raid boss in Tomb of Sargeras. Sisters of the Moon had no relevant DPS check so guilds just ran 8 healers because it was safer than having more DPS.

There needs to be a timer, removing it would cause infinitely more problems than it would solve.

[Sondrelk]

The problem with M+ has never been the timer or death penalties or anything like that.
The problem with M+ is the same as with Torghast, there just isn't enough variety and fun in the affixes to make each week and dungeon feel like a separate experience people can look forward to.

If Blizzard finally got the hang of M+ it would all be better.

[Kumorii]

Unfortunately i as many have no access to the only two tools that matters to progress fast in this game: tons of time and a fixed group to play with.

Also I just /pat on your rudeness, now you can go back to Oribos and spam your achi in the general chat.

You don't need a fixed group... I puged majority of my keys and have almost all of them at 18+. You can learn by applying critical thinking to mistakes leading to wipes regardless of it leads to a dead key or not.

By the sounds of it the only barrier you have is yourself. You are convinced you can't learn so you won't learn. Just apply some introspection even to successful runs... You never, or very rarely, play perfectly. Even top players don't play perfectly so I doubt you do, which means you can learn from every experience, successful or not.

[chiddie]

You don't need a fixed group... I puged majority of my keys and have almost all of them at 18+. You can learn by applying critical thinking to mistakes leading to wipes regardless of it leads to a dead key or not.

By the sounds of it the only barrier you have is yourself. You are convinced you can't learn so you won't learn. Just apply some introspection even to successful runs... You never, or very rarely, play perfectly. Even top players don't play perfectly so I doubt you do, which means you can learn from every experience, successful or not.

Oh but I know my mistakes.

Unfortunately I can’t correct them fast enough because there’s no on demand training mode for M+. The only way I could correct them is begging the guild to do some random M 2/3 and just chain wipe to bosses I need to learn in order to... well, learn how to deal with my issues. Not so easy.

[Kumorii]

Oh but I know my mistakes.

Unfortunately I can’t correct them fast enough because there’s no on demand training mode for M+. The only way I could correct them is begging the guild to do some random M 2/3 and just chain wipe to bosses I need to learn in order to... well, learn how to deal with my issues. Not so easy.

Or just go to another key and take what you learned from the previous run and apply to the new one.. it's what most people do I imagined.
I can't think of anyone I know or heard of going into a low key and chain wipe to a boss to learn.

[Sunderella]

I would welcome timerless mythic+ but I don't see how well it would play out. I don't like the go go go playstyle but I just don't see it without timer. Maybe if they favored *some* CC, had actual avoidable insta-gib mechanics or there really was a need for priority targets at all levels instead of being an annoying AoE fest they could get to increase difficulty without a timer.

[Naville]

Oh, I tried to use it. It’s nice but due to the timer I have absolutely no time to read tips, thus making it near to useless.

I still have it but I totally forget about it in dungeons.

You don't need to read tooltips for every mob while fighting them. Just run dungeons, you'll learn some abilites. For others, you'll find sometimes yourself thinking "oh wait, what is this dude doing?" and then you can read the tooltip of this specific mob.

The best training mode you'll find is to run keys. Even those below your gear/skill level. There's always something to learn. To practice bosses, prefer tyrannical weeks of course.

Also, perhaps you may need to tune your boss mod. To a beginner I would recommend DBM. BigWigs is far more exhaustive for experienced key runners, but DBM features simple alert messages such as "avoid this", "go to boss", "move away from party".

[Tradu]

I would welcome timerless mythic+ but I don't see how well it would play out. I don't like the go go go playstyle but I just don't see it without timer. Maybe if they favored *some* CC, had actual avoidable insta-gib mechanics or there really was a need for priority targets at all levels instead of being an annoying AoE fest they could get to increase difficulty without a timer.

All of those things exist already once you're playing at keys that are hard for you.