will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[arkanon]

To be fair, when I started playing in classic, the community was helpful and cool to interact with. You could ask something in general chat and get back a helpful reply. But now, hell no. the community will roast you alive, or tell you to Google shit, or say some dumb ass childish stuff like 'Let me sleep with your mom first'. So yeah the community is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more toxic as fuck now then back when classic was released.

Not sure exactly what it could be. But the community has definitely went from being mature to now and feeling like you are talking to a bunch of 12 year olds.

I really dont think the community has changed much in the last 12-18 months.............

[phattsao]

There will always be the sweaty kids consulting spreadsheets to be perfect, but TBC does remove a lot of the ridiculous stuff like OP world buffs and (I think) whipper root tubers. So it will get slightly better at least in that regard.

I do remember classism being a big thing at the start of TBC at least, no one wanted melee DPS for heroics, but hopefully the later patch build will iron that out.

[Aggressive]

I really dont think the community has changed much in the last 12-18 months.............

It hasn't. But somewhere between after Classic, the community has become so toxic that it just makes me google my answer or ask in guild to see if anyone knows the answer. But the community was great in classic. Very helpful and nice. But now, Holy hell. It is not helpful at all. Rude and mean is what I think of the community now. And I started to notice it shortly after BC hit.

[arkanon]

It hasn't. But somewhere between after Classic, the community has become so toxic that it just makes me google my answer or ask in guild to see if anyone knows the answer. But the community was great in classic. Very helpful and nice. But now, Holy hell. It is not helpful at all. Rude and mean is what I think of the community now. And I started to notice it shortly after BC hit.

Wait we might have our wires crossed - are you meaning between 2004 and now? like..."vanilla" compared to "classic?

[Dhrizzle]

Try playing on a PVE or RP realm. Those servers generally seem to have more casual guilds.

Casual guilds in TBC could have a really rough time, or at least mine did. Because we had a larger than average roster to make sure people weren't obliged to raid too often gearing was quite slow as was learning the fights. There'd always be a few players who got fed up grinding the same dungeons to get everyone else up to scratch who might go looking for a guild that's progressing the next lot of content. This means new players, more early grinding needed and more chances for veterans to get fed up and go looking for a guild more their speed. Rinse and repeat ad-infinitum.

[jackofwind]

It hasn't. But somewhere between after Classic, the community has become so toxic that it just makes me google my answer or ask in guild to see if anyone knows the answer. But the community was great in classic. Very helpful and nice. But now, Holy hell. It is not helpful at all. Rude and mean is what I think of the community now. And I started to notice it shortly after BC hit.

More people are doing the higher tiers of content now, which means more people have an inflated ego and sense of self worth in the game, at least that's how I see it.

The worst offenders in my experience are the players who are good enough to clear Mythics (eventually) which makes them think they're hot shit, but not so good that they are confident in their prowess and happy to help lift others up as well. I hypothesize that they're too insecure to want to help other people get better because they're afraid they might end up getting surpassed.

[Dhrizzle]

How is this considered min/maxing? Raid comps/setup has nothing to do with min maxing lol. You can min/max without this style of raid setups and you can go without it as well.

Saying you only need X number of a particular class/spec for utility and the rest made up of the ones that push the biggest numbers is pretty much the definition of min-maxing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I think the underlying issue people have with min/max isn't that people that do it do it. It is more that people that do it make everyone else do it and ruin people that don't do its experience often (don't get invited, carried, the hand outs). For some reason in this game it's odd that people that do their best want to play with others that do their best. NBA player min/max and it is why they don't invite the fat 44 year old office staffer at the local insurance company to hoop with. Doesn't make sense for either party involved. I am sure from any of our personal experiences at work or school know that their are certain people you don't want to work alongside with because they are lazy, dumb, or otherwise a downer to the task at hand and you know you will end up carrying that dead weight (I mean unless its you..). So when it comes to video games it isn't a whole lot different. Trust me their will be a LOT of people that will not min/max and try hard. If you are the same then PLAY WITH THOSE PEOPLE. But I think we know why that probably won't happen. The wipe fest. So it becomes about you finding your way into the tryhards/pros and getting that carry most the time. You don't want to try to hard but probably want to reap the rewards of those that do. Kind of sad actually.

[Tojara]

See this paragraph shows how little you know about the problems of Classic while also showing how little you know about what the game was like Vanilla-early Cata. It also shows how little you know about mmo's outside of WoW, such as FFXIV, and how they don't have a toxic culture because the community cuts the cancer out fast because they strive to be good people and good mentors.

I played throughout the entirety of WoW. Maybe you were asleep during TBC when people plagued LFG channels looking for exclusively CC classes, while declining anybody else. Maybe you were also asleep in WoTLK when people started declining people solely based on their iLvL alone in the middle part of the expansion? Just because you didn't see it, nor were part of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, nor does it allow you to dismiss any claims I made.

I've been part of guilds throughout my history in WoW and although much of what I described really didn't hurt me (because why pug when I have a guild), it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Pretending that the older periods of the game were 'better' and the lack of toxicity is simply untrue. You either have huge blinders on, or played the game differently to where it didn't affect you in the slightest. Like mentioned, it didn't affect me, but I was pretty aware of how the game was played just by monitoring anything in group finder channels.

And yeah, I tried Final Fantasy and it's just straight up garbage. All but forced to play with people you really don't want to play with in a pug setting, while people are shielded by criticisms because of how the game is designed. It's why if I ever played the game I would exclusively raid with a static. Man what a great group I was in healer! You sure did press that cure button really well! Best tank I've seen in ages. Yeah all the DPS were great too (even the guy who was half AFK and didn't really contribute much). We best not say anything to him, or he might report us for even insulating his DPS!

Your statement that WoW wasn't toxic in the first four iterations of the game is just flat out wrong, but I get it. I'm going to go out on a whim here and assume that people like you, are just as toxic as the people you're claiming are toxic simply because you want people to play the way you want them to play. That's great and it seems you found the perfect games in Final Fantasy, or the fantastically alive and successful game which is GW2.

[Diabloish]

Saying you only need X number of a particular class/spec for utility and the rest made up of the ones that push the biggest numbers is pretty much the definition of min-maxing.

Yes but this is speaking in the context of a min maxer dude lol. If you aren’t min maxing this system means nothing to you. The system doesn’t breed min maxing, min maxers capitalize on the system.

Look at mythic plus races, every single group is the exact same. Normally look like monk, mage, dk, priest, demon Hunter. Shadowlands doesn’t have the tbc system for groups so how’s come these groups look so similar? Oh because it’s min maxers capitalizing on the system, getting a similar result.

How is this so hard to understand lol.

[munkeyinorbit]

Idk if you know what you said but you basically just said “people who min/max are just very good at the game”. That’s what I’m yapping about. And it’s a hilarious statement to make.

Hahaha. It is a pretty hilarious statement to make. Especially when you are the only one to make it. So someone asks a question. You get triggered. You misrepresent the question as a statement. You get double triggered. You attack someone.

You're right. This is hilarious.

Now let's have a look at one some guy said. It was you. "Do you think the biggest difference between people who min/max and people who don’t is somehow skill? " I will answer this question.

Yes. I think that is the biggest difference. People who min max are more likely to know their class and more likely to read about their class. More often than not someone who is up to date on what a class can do will be better than someone who doesn't.

Notice how I didn't misrepresent the question? You are welcome.

[Aggressive]

Wait we might have our wires crossed - are you meaning between 2004 and now? like..."vanilla" compared to "classic?

Yeah. Sorry. I do mean between classic (aka Vanilla) of 2004 up to now

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More people are doing the higher tiers of content now, which means more people have an inflated ego and sense of self worth in the game, at least that's how I see it.

The worst offenders in my experience are the players who are good enough to clear Mythics (eventually) which makes them think they're hot shit, but not so good that they are confident in their prowess and happy to help lift others up as well. I hypothesize that they're too insecure to want to help other people get better because they're afraid they might end up getting surpassed.

I think this is the best answer of all time. You literally nailed it on the head. Like this is the best answer ever. never thought of it like that. But yep damn good answer.

[Daedius]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

Like it did with Classic WoW?

[Th3Scourge]

I don't understand why people refer to min-maxxing as "tOxIc". min-maxxing has always been a thing, there's just more information out there now. People like you seem to call any behaviour they don't like as toxic, most likely because it excludes players like you from participating, due to one variable or another (playing a shit spec, lack of ability etc)

[arkanon]

Yeah. Sorry. I do mean between classic (aka Vanilla) of 2004 up to now

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I think this is the best answer of all time. You literally nailed it on the head. Like this is the best answer ever. never thought of it like that. But yep damn good answer.

RIGHT! I was pretty confused tbh, I thought you meant between WoW:Classic launch and now. Yes, i agree things are quite different, but the toxicity existed back then as well. I think the main difference is far fewer players participated in late game content back then, so were less exposed to it. It absolutely existed and the raiding and pvp scenes were terribly hostile and toxic at times.

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I don't understand why people refer to min-maxxing as "tOxIc". min-maxxing has always been a thing, there's just more information out there now. People like you seem to call any behaviour they don't like as toxic, most likely because it excludes players like you from participating, due to one variable or another (playing a shit spec, lack of ability etc)

This was a point it tried to make a page back - the only impact a min maxer could possibly have on a player with a more casual mindset is.....they are better. They are not getting excluded because they dont "min/max" they are getting excluded because they are not good enough at the game. One way to improve that situation is to............min/max your character and take it seriously. Sure, player skill comes into play as well, but i cant say i have come across a player who takes their character seriously enough to have all the best gear / enchants / stats etc etc that then turns around and plays like shit. Sure, they exist, but they would be the exception to the rule.

To be clear, what im saying is a player that takes the time to hunt out the right gear, sim their toon, research the class/spec heavily etc is extrmeely likely to outperform someone who has the same ilvl of random drops with no care taken regarding stats, enchants, spec, etc etc.

Anyway, i agree, this is the same on classic as retail - people being denied participation in certain content / difficulties because they have a sloppy ass character with random gear everywhere and no effort put in at all, suddenly calling everyone "ToXiC" because they wont invite them (AKA carry them)

[Th3Scourge]

This was a point it tried to make a page back - the only impact a min maxer could possibly have on a player with a more casual mindset is.....they are better. They are not getting excluded because they dont "min/max" they are getting excluded because they are not good enough at the game. One way to improve that situation is to............min/max your character and take it seriously. Sure, player skill comes into play as well, but i cant say i have come across a player who takes their character seriously enough to have all the best gear / enchants / stats etc etc that then turns around and plays like shit. Sure, they exist, but they would be the exception to the rule.

Anyway, i agree, this is the same on classic as retail - people being denied participation in certain content / difficulties because they have a sloppy ass character with random gear everywhere and no effort put in at all, suddenly calling everyone "ToXiC" because they wont invite them (AKA carry them)

Exactly... Fuck 'em. It's not 2007 anymore, players don't have to waste their time with some scrub that doesn't know what they are doing.

[Diabloish]

Mmo-champ: I feel like the toxicity is going to be a lot less this time around

Also mmo-champ:

Exactly... Fuck 'em. It's not 2007 anymore, players don't have to waste their time with some scrub that doesn't know what they are doing.

[PaladinBash]

Oh no it was absolutely like this in BC. You know how many Ret paladins there were on my server back then? 3. Just 3. 2 of us did nothing and 1 of us, at the lofty title of Rival, was considered amazing at PVP and being taken by his raid for a 3% crit buff. You know how I remember that 14 years on? Because that was the dark age before the Day of Ret. None of you who didn't get kicked or laughed at from fucking HEROIC DUNGEON GROUPS, even when you outgeared everyone in them, will know what it's like. Kids today complain about how shit it is being a DPS in keys can't even imagine. IO and gearscore are nothing compared to being Ret in BC. Only the hilarious overly sweaty nature of Classic "meta" and boosted rats talking down to people comes close but even that is a pale remake of the true horror that being Ret in BC was. 3 fucking people. I am not exaggerating, I am not misrepesenting, there were fucking 3 of us. I even remember the other 2 guys by name.

Only if you felt this would you understand how good it felt when the Day of Ret came and for one glorious week we rose up and got to be turbochads that put such an absolute sense of hatred and terror into the entire design team and community that Ret has and will never be allowed to do that shit again for even 5 minutes. If anyone says that it wasn't like that, they weren't really Ret then. That's what Ret will always be. It's a core experience of the spec and anyone who played it afterwards, even in the many many times it has been shit and unfun, has not really experienced it because there's no real community contempt to go along with it.

And that's just my spec. That's nothing to do with all the min/maxing meta bullshit that years of pirate servers, boosting, meta revision and other nonsense that fills the head of your average idiot that will come with BC. It will be like that for EVERYONE in Classic BC, not just Ret, but do you know what? To a blind man, a world of darkness is no worse off so I'm going to play it and going to love it because then everyone else will be suffering the same kind of dumbness I did and I'm just spiteful enough to find that amusing.

[arkanon]

Exactly... Fuck 'em. It's not 2007 anymore, players don't have to waste their time with some scrub that doesn't know what they are doing.

I look at it SLIGHTLY differently, but i guess with a similar end result: If you want to do content, put the effort in to be on equal footing with the other members of the group/raid. If you are not willing to do that work, you have no right to call those people toxic, or anything else.

As a side note - I stepped out of mythic raiding this expac (retail) because i am no longer willing to put in the work required to raid at that level. The idea that i think mythic raid groups are "toxic" because they choose to put the effort in to play at that level is absurd to me.

I have no issue at all if people want to take a causal, more relaxed approach to any activity - if you just want to kick a ball around socially once a week, and put zero training in outside of that game, thats fine, but dont call the world champs toxic just because they ARE willing to put that work in.

[Yizu]

By your logic, shadowlands isn’t as min/max heavy because the Meta for raid comps is different.

Isnt that what i said? TBC had it worst when it comes to minmax culture? Do you also remember back then when most clothies have half the hp of everyone else because they cant wear raid gear for almost 3 tiers (specifically tier gear) and have to stick to crafted ones that literally has 0 budget for stamina? There were even FotM specs built around to work on a single trinket and if you dont have that single item, you can pretty much sit out for prog. Im not sure what TBC you played back then.