Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[beanman12345]

This doesn't denote "right-wing grifters" but Bernie supporters who didn't want to vote for Biden..

This denotes a non rational thinking bernie supporter.

[Rasulis]

Today's OMB hearings.

Budget chairman gives OMB nominee Neera Tanden a big hug.
Finding agreement on:

• $15/hour minimum wage
• Tripling K-12 funding
• Lowering the Medicare age
• Lowering prescription drug prices
• Universal pre-K
• etc...

Siri, is that a winter storm or the collective cries of anguish from Bernie Bros?

I am looking forward to Becerra nomination. That one will be pretty vicious. GOP Senators really do not like him. This is the guy that sued Trump's administration 122 times and blocked more GOP's attempts to scuttle ACA than any other person.

[Themius]

This denotes a non rational thinking bernie supporter.

So he's attacking non-right wing bernie supporters who didn't want to vote for Biden and lumping them in with right-wing grifters. Yet... his past posting just shows him attacking any bernie supporter regardless of what their rationality was, in the event they dared to criticise Biden... that is not behaviour that says "I'm just attacking right wing grifters and people who didn't vote Biden" that says anyone who is both a bernie supporter and critiqued Biden is worthy of attack too. Which isn't rational.

Also trying to claim Biden is so left he's fucking Comrade Biden...

That requires a high degree of delusion, and the disbelief in overton window when it comes to America. That's just silly.

[beanman12345]

So he's attacking non-right wing bernie supporters who didn't want to vote for Biden and lumping them in with right-wing grifters. Yet... his past posting just shows him attacking any bernie supporter regardless of what their rationality was, in the event they dared to criticise Biden... that is not behaviour that says "I'm just attacking right wing grifters and people who didn't vote Biden" that says anyone who is both a bernie supporter and critiqued Biden is worthy of attack too. Which isn't rational.

<shrug> if you want to feel personally attacked, idk what to say. I personally don't care if people want to shit on the Dore's and Greenwalds in the world.

[PhaelixWW]

NZ minimum wage is $18.90/hr atm, increasing to $20/hr in April. Just saying.

$1 NZ = $0.72 US, so that $18.90 NZ becomes $13.64 US, and the $20 NZ becomes a $14.43 US.

Not putting it down, just clarifying.

[Felya]

It's leftist to prefer that the government controls the prison system rather than private companies, that are ought to exploit at every angle? It's leftist to not want to both waste money AND destroy nature for a pipeline dedicated to a resource that is already rapidly dying out and is in no way, shape, or form a part of this planet's long-term future? These seem more common-sense and logical issues/fallacies than they do a left/right thing (although I concede that common-sense and logic are often at odds with the right so...)

Yes, that is correct.

So the way you want to frame it is being leftist is to care about people and the planet and being a rightist is to condemn those things at every opportunity available? Strange way to think about it, but that's your prerogative.

It’s not my framing, my dude... the right is defined by private control of enterprise, while the left is public. The things you asked about, are pretty clearly defined.

[Poopymonster]

Why? What's so bad/suicidal over it?

Especially compared to say, just leaving things as-is?

So Dems raise the min wage to 15. Lose seats in 2022. Possibly the Prez in 2024. What are the GOP goin to do..."We want to lower the minimum wage."
Can you see those debates?
"We gave you 15 an hour. They want to take it away." but small businesses are-"They think YOU, every one of you, is worth less than that." ...muh freeberties?

[Edge-]

So Dems raise the min wage to 15. Lose seats in 2022. Possibly the Prez in 2024. What are the GOP goin to do..."We want to lower the minimum wage."
Can you see those debates?
"We gave you 15 an hour. They want to take it away." but small businesses are-"They think YOU, every one of you, is worth less than that." ...muh freeberties?

Seriously, I'm just imagining Republicans trying to sell their constituents on lowering the minimum wage down to like $8-10 after it's $15/h.

I don't even think they'd be able to hold physical town halls for that, because their constituents would probably be trying to physically choke them out the whole time.

[Kaleredar]

So Dems raise the min wage to 15. Lose seats in 2022. Possibly the Prez in 2024. What are the GOP goin to do..."We want to lower the minimum wage."
Can you see those debates?
"We gave you 15 an hour. They want to take it away." but small businesses are-"They think YOU, every one of you, is worth less than that." ...muh freeberties?

Seriously, I'm just imagining Republicans trying to sell their constituents on lowering the minimum wage down to like $8-10 after it's $15/h.

I don't even think they'd be able to hold physical town halls for that, because their constituents would probably be trying to physically choke them out the whole time.

That's why they fight tooth and nail to stop liberal policies from going through. Because they know voters would like them.

Why do you think they never actually "repealed" Obamacare despite all their huff and bluster about doing so? They obviously never had the wherewithal to replace it with anything else... Trump certainly least of all. They knew it was a buzzword they could bandy about as being a "broken piece of liberal governance" that would rile up their base, but that actually repealing it would have angered people.

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Private as in private companies owning our country's prison system?

Was it you that was for those company-driven towns/governments? Seems like you would be all for that.

And how is it a private/public issue in regards to the pipelines? It's not it's an environmental issue, it's a 'make smart financial decisions' issue (something I thought the right was all about), its a damn common sense issue ffs attempting to label it is leftist/rightist is so dishonest and unfair to the actual issue at hand since those words are so toxic and any topic that is brought up to be connected to one or the other side is automatically doomed to be hated by the other side, which is unfair to the problem itself and the respect that it may deserve.

Too much of this shit is forced to be keyholed into "liberal" and "conservative" issues. These tribalism thought patterns are really getting old when the actual problems themselves are swept under the rug and/or ignored due to politics instead of the merits and risks of the problem itself. The fact that climate change is considered a liberal issue is all I need to say about that. It's beyond ridiculous how the health of our planet can be framed as a political issue. But money talks I guess...

They try labeling these things "liberal issues" to discredit them and pretend they don't have to deal with them or that they don't exist so long as you vote for and listen to conservatives.

And the conservative leadership does that because these "liberal issues" like dealing with climate change via regulation, shifting investments away from fossil fuels, and other issues like labor rights cut into the short-term profits of extremely wealthy interested parties.

[Shadowferal]

THIS IS WHAT MINIMUM WAGE WOULD BE IF IT KEPT PACE WITH PRODUCTIVITY

While the national minimum wage did rise roughly in step with productivity growth from its inception in 1938 until 1968, in the more than five decades since then, it has not even kept pace with inflation. However, if the minimum wage did rise in step with productivity growth since 1968 it would be over $24 an hour today.

A minimum wage of $24 an hour would mean that a full-time full year minimum wage worker would be earning $48,000 a year. A two minimum wage earning couple would have a family income of $96,000 a year, enough to put them in the top quintile of the current income distribution.

It is worth noting the standard counter to the argument that the minimum wage should keep pace with productivity growth. It would be claimed that the productivity of minimum wage workers has not kept pace with average productivity growth, so that it would not be feasible for minimum wage workers to earn pay that rises in step with average productivity growth.

There is some truth to this claim, but only at a superficial level. The productivity of any individual worker is determined not just by their skills and technology, but also by the institutional structure we put in place. In a world without patent and copyright monopolies, the skills of bio-technicians and software designers would likely be much less valuable than they are today.

Similarly, the skills of experts in stock trading and designing complex financial instruments would have much less value if we had a financial transactions tax in place and allowed large banks to fail when their mistakes made them insolvent. And, the skills of doctors and other highly paid professionals would have much less value if our trade policy was as committed to subjecting them to international competition, as has been the case with auto and textile workers.

Lower pay for those at the top increases the real pay for those at the bottom and middle. A $15 an hour wage goes much further when all drugs are selling as low costs generics, the financial sector is not sucking 2 percent of GDP ($230 billion a year) out of the economy, and doctors get paid the same as their West European counterparts.

If the productivity of less-skilled workers has not kept pace with average productivity, this was by design. It was not the fault of these workers; it was the fault of those who designed policies that had the effect of devaluing their skills.

[Trifle]

$1 NZ = $0.72 US, so that $18.90 NZ becomes $13.64 US, and the $20 NZ becomes a $14.43 US.

Not putting it down, just clarifying.

Yeah, that's a fair point. Wiki informs me that Australia has a 21+ minimum wage of A$19.84 ($15.36 USD), but I guess for the countries relatively close to the US's proposed $15 they can either win or lose vs it based on currency fluctuations at any given time.

Either way, US$15 is pretty high (at/near the top of the list) but I don't think it's unrealistically so. I guess the complication will be for wealthier vs poorer states, but most countries have to deal with that to some extent.

[Themius]

Yeah, that's a fair point. Wiki informs me that Australia has a 21+ minimum wage of A$19.84 ($15.36 USD), but I guess for the countries relatively close to the US's proposed $15 they can either win or lose vs it based on currency fluctuations at any given time.

Either way, US$15 is pretty high (at/near the top of the list) but I don't think it's unrealistically so. I guess the complication will be for wealthier vs poorer states, but most countries have to deal with that to some extent.

Comparing the dollars of an nz person living in nz to usa seems off... like say a pair of shoes is $60 in America and £60 in the U.K. and €60 in France.

[DarkTZeratul]

I don't even think they'd be able to hold physical town halls for that,

They mostly stopped doing those anyway, even before the pandemic.

[Felya]

Private as in private companies owning our country's prison system?

Biden removing them, is literally listed in my previous reply as a liberal action.

Was it you that was for those company-driven towns/governments? Seems like you would be all for that.

Why don’t you check the thread? It’s better than me saying you are wrong.

And how is it a private/public issue in regards to the pipelines? It's not it's an environmental issue, it's a 'make smart financial decisions' issue (something I thought the right was all about), its a damn common sense issue ffs attempting to label it is leftist/rightist is so dishonest and unfair to the actual issue at hand since those words are so toxic and any topic that is brought up to be connected to one or the other side is automatically doomed to be hated by the other side, which is unfair to the problem itself and the respect that it may deserve.

Is the land it’s drilling on, private or public? Is the corporation doing the drilling, private or public?

Common since, by someone assuming I support corporate cities, despite a thread were I am quite vocal against it, being 3 clicks away? Someone believing that the pipeline is beneficial, is someone lacking common sense. How do you even argue the issue? Yesterday, when Fox’s Douche’ asked during Biden’s press briefing, about Biden giving clean energy jobs to those who are losing them over the pipeline... Should she just responded with... ‘it’s a common sense environmental issue’? Because I much preferred her answer focusing on jobs...

Too much of this shit is forced to be keyholed into "liberal" and "conservative" issues. These tribalism thought patterns are really getting old when the actual problems themselves are swept under the rug and/or ignored due to politics instead of the merits and risks of the problem itself. The fact that climate change is considered a liberal issue is all I need to say about that. It's beyond ridiculous how the health of our planet can be framed as a political issue. But money talks I guess...

A political scale is not a tribe... we are not talking about democrats or republicans... but, the god damn political scale. Maybe try to figure out why an issue’s solution resides on the left or right or up or down. Ignorance over what the political scale means, does not mean that gradients on the political scale, don’t exist...

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They try labeling these things "liberal issues" to discredit them and pretend they don't have to deal with them or that they don't exist so long as you vote for and listen to conservatives.

Uhm... I said it, to give Biden credit... not to discredit... how is calling Biden’s actions liberal, a way to discredit him... on this forum? Yeah, if this was some Trump forum, this would be an attack... but, here? In defending Biden from being called not liberal enough? Are you sure?

I don’t know, my dude... If I keep calling positive action, liberal action... am I discrediting it or am I attempting to bolster it? It’s not like I said neoliberal... which I have shown to be idiotic, since the term was used for Milton Friedman in the 60s... making modern use, idiotic... how is something neo, be 60 years old? If one is to go along with the modern interpretation of classic liberal being at the turn of the century... that means the time span from classic to neo, is nearly the same as from neo to now. Implying, in that context, neo has now lasted almost as long, as the existence of liberal, until it became classic.

And the conservative leadership does that because these "liberal issues" like dealing with climate change via regulation, shifting investments away from fossil fuels, and other issues like labor rights cut into the short-term profits of extremely wealthy interested parties.

Yeah, it’s like conservatives and liberals, value things differently.

[Levelfive]

THIS IS WHAT MINIMUM WAGE WOULD BE IF IT KEPT PACE WITH PRODUCTIVITY

While the national minimum wage did rise roughly in step with productivity growth from its inception in 1938 until 1968, in the more than five decades since then, it has not even kept pace with inflation. However, if the minimum wage did rise in step with productivity growth since 1968 it would be over $24 an hour today.

A minimum wage of $24 an hour would mean that a full-time full year minimum wage worker would be earning $48,000 a year. A two minimum wage earning couple would have a family income of $96,000 a year, enough to put them in the top quintile of the current income distribution.

It is worth noting the standard counter to the argument that the minimum wage should keep pace with productivity growth. It would be claimed that the productivity of minimum wage workers has not kept pace with average productivity growth, so that it would not be feasible for minimum wage workers to earn pay that rises in step with average productivity growth.

There is some truth to this claim, but only at a superficial level. The productivity of any individual worker is determined not just by their skills and technology, but also by the institutional structure we put in place. In a world without patent and copyright monopolies, the skills of bio-technicians and software designers would likely be much less valuable than they are today.

Similarly, the skills of experts in stock trading and designing complex financial instruments would have much less value if we had a financial transactions tax in place and allowed large banks to fail when their mistakes made them insolvent. And, the skills of doctors and other highly paid professionals would have much less value if our trade policy was as committed to subjecting them to international competition, as has been the case with auto and textile workers.

Lower pay for those at the top increases the real pay for those at the bottom and middle. A $15 an hour wage goes much further when all drugs are selling as low costs generics, the financial sector is not sucking 2 percent of GDP ($230 billion a year) out of the economy, and doctors get paid the same as their West European counterparts.

If the productivity of less-skilled workers has not kept pace with average productivity, this was by design. It was not the fault of these workers; it was the fault of those who designed policies that had the effect of devaluing their skills.

Really interesting read, thank you.

[Nurasu]

I've read quite a few articles about a $15/hr minimum wage further destroying Puerto Rico's economy, but it's hard to tell how much truth there is to it. They do seem to have been impacted by the previous increase to $7.25.

[Shadowferal]

I've read quite a few articles about a $15/hr minimum wage further destroying Puerto Rico's economy, but it's hard to tell how much truth there is to it. They do seem to have been impacted by the previous increase to $7.25.

They're more impacted by the previous admin's neglect after the hurricane wrecked the whole island.

[Nurasu]

They're more impacted by the previous admin's neglect after the hurricane wrecked the whole island.

Agreed; I just wonder if they can put in an exemption for them, if they need it. Or maybe they will eventually 'settle in' to the new rates with inflation.

[DarkTZeratul]

They're more impacted by the previous admin's neglect after the hurricane wrecked the whole island.

Also by the variety of import/export taxes that apply to them because they're technically not a state, but really shouldn't because they're part of the United States.

[Machismo]

Agreed; I just wonder if they can put in an exemption for them, if they need it. Or maybe they will eventually 'settle in' to the new rates with inflation.

Just make them a state, then there's no issue.