Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

[Cæli]

Wait so what happens with the 40 million people who can't get to work because they can't afford to use a highway?

No one said they shouldn't proportionality pay more taxes and under most universal plans they will pay more in taxes, but they will also benefit from the plans as well. You can't avoid this unless you plan on making it illegal for them to own businesses and stocks.

only give money to those who need it (health care, food, whatever), why do you want to help the wealthy? you defend both the wealthy and more taxes for everyone? I don't get it

[Felya]

only give money to those who need it (health care, food, whatever), why do you want to help the wealthy? you defend both the wealthy and more taxes for everyone? I don't get it

You think the rich would use food stamps at Chateau Marmont? You think a billionaire will only go to healthcare providers that accept Medicare? :/

[Zan15]

only give money to those who need it (health care, food, whatever), why do you want to help the wealthy? you defend both the wealthy and more taxes for everyone? I don't get it

its an offshoot of a stronger economy, stronger businesses and cheaper healthcare.

How is them paying more taxes defending them?

How do you stop a "rich" person who owns Walmart stock from making more money because they save billions on healthcare cost?

How do you stop a "rich person" who owns Walmart stock from making money on the stock because 190 million workers save thousands each on healthcare cost and turn around and spend a lot of that in walmart?

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I am going by individual tax contributions and their personal medical care. With employers it’s tricky, because of their subsidies... our subsidies... insurance subsidies... It’s too complicated, so I’ll take your word for it.

Yah its hard to quantify in any of the plans but the fact is anything that stimulates the economy will inherently benefit the people with the most money.

[Cæli]

You think the rich would use food stamps at Chateau Marmont? You think a billionaire will only go to healthcare providers that accept Medicare? :/

I'm not american, I think I didn't get your point, billionaires would go to the best places I suppose
but the point is the tax that goes from the non wealthy to the wealthy, which makes little to no difference for the wealthy, but a difference for the non wealthy

[omeomorfismo]

only for those who cannot afford some required health services
why would wealthy people benefit from universal health care if they can afford it?
therefore I suppose that the answer is "No" I don't support it

because it save money for everyone.
bigger and single customer (the state) as way more power than single ones or smaller insurance

[Cæli]

because it save money for everyone.
bigger and single customer (the state) as way more power than single ones or smaller insurance

maybe, but that's where I don't really understand
how does taxing everyone more allows money to be saved? if you would tax people only for those who cannot easily afford it, people would pay less tax, and have therefore more money to spend on what they need or like (as opposed to spending money for strangers that don't always need that money)
do you mean the state prevents health service prices to go too high?

[omeomorfismo]

maybe, but that's where I don't really understand
how does taxing everyone more allows money to be saved? if you would tax people only for those who cannot easily afford it, people would pay less tax, and have therefore more money to spend on what they need or like (as opposed to spending money for strangers that don't always need that money)
do you mean the state prevents health service prices to go too high?

the bigger you are, more contractual power you have, its simple.
if medicine A cost X money, if you have to buy only for yourself the Pharmaceutical industry will charge any amount it want and if you cant afford it, meh, its only a costumer lost.
if the state (or single insurance) had to buy for everyone then the industry simply would lose all the market if they cant find an agreement, so it has to offer better deals, prices and treatments.

often free market optimize Supply and demand better, but considering that in this case the deman simply has infinite value (our life/health) it simply doesnt work.

thats simply for pure "game theory"

if you start to factorize other elements, like prevention, then the free market, even for a subsent of the health customers, simply its counterproductive.
thats even the reason because in most of the hospital nobody can ask for documents, because otherwise illegal immigrants (or other groups) wouldnt go to heal themself and could have worse complications (more expensive) or spread diseases....

[Zan15]

maybe, but that's where I don't really understand
how does taxing everyone more allows money to be saved? if you would tax people only for those who cannot easily afford it, people would pay less tax, and have therefore more money to spend on what they need or like (as opposed to spending money for strangers that don't always need that money)
do you mean the state prevents health service prices to go too high?

Taxing everyone does not mean taxing everyone equally.
Those who make little money in the US don't pay much in taxes and wouldn't under the universal healthcare plans.
ACA also gives subsidies to those who can't afford it so their cost can become 0.00, rich people do not qualify for them.

[Cæli]

the bigger you are, more contractual power you have, its simple.
if medicine A cost X money, if you have to buy only for yourself the Pharmaceutical industry will charge any amount it want and if you cant afford it, meh, its only a costumer lost.
if the state (or single insurance) had to buy for everyone then the industry simply would lose all the market if they cant find an agreement, so it has to offer better deals, prices and treatments.

often free market optimize Supply and demand better, but considering that in this case the deman simply has infinite value (our life/health) it simply doesnt work.

thats simply for pure "game theory"

if you start to factorize other elements, like prevention, then the free market, even for a subsent of the health customers, simply its counterproductive.
thats even the reason because in most of the hospital nobody can ask for documents, because otherwise illegal immigrants (or other groups) wouldnt go to heal themself and could have worse complications (more expensive) or spread diseases....

I'm not sure how a company would only have the state as a customer, I'm also not sure how competition would work, such companies could also get demand from other countries or sell on the internet I suppose, universal health care or not, the demand is the same to me, so prices level too logically. or maybe not. it's just much more complicated that what I thought

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Taxing everyone does not mean taxing everyone equally.
Those who make little money in the US don't pay much in taxes and wouldn't under the universal healthcare plans.
ACA also gives subsidies to those who can't afford it so their cost can become 0.00, rich people do not qualify for them.

of course but still it's certainly possible to tax less the less wealthy in order to leave them more money, and leave the wealthy handle their health themselves since they can. but anyway, like I said it's much more complicated than what I imagined, I have no clue at this point in fact

[BeepBoo]

often free market optimize Supply and demand better, but considering that in this case the deman simply has infinite value (our life/health) it simply doesnt work.

Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that. I think it's important to force people to reconcile with the reality that they don't have infinite value and that some people just don't care about them.

[Gestopft]

it's not about allowing the wealthy to "save" money, it's about allowing those who can't afford it to pay
workers maybe, multi millionaires, no they don't need that, there is no need to tax people in order to give some of that money to multi millionaires

1) Wealthy people will pay far more in and receive approximately the same benefit as those who can't afford. Mathematically, they wouldn't come out 'ahead' if they got healthcare too (compared to someone of more meager means).
2) If you think that healthcare should be a right, that means that said right applies to everybody
3) Universal programs are simpler and tend to enjoy broader support than means-tested programs. Wealthy people can earn Social Security and go on Medicare regardless of whether or not they need it. The point isn't and shouldn't be just "make wealthy people pay for more stuff-" it's about the social contract of what it means to be an American, creating a higher baseline for what any citizen of the world's richest country can expect to experience.

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Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that.

Do you somehow not understand how necessity makes it harder to bargain a price down? The actual term is called a 'captive market.' Part of what makes markets efficient is that people can make informed choices- including the choice not to participate. In healthcare, they don't have that choice. They have to participate (or die/live with a severely reduce qol), and the necessity of their participation results in a lower bargaining position and thus higher prices.

[Lynarii]

I'm not sure how a company would only have the state as a customer, I'm also not sure how competition would work, such companies could also get demand from other countries or sell on the internet I suppose, universal health care or not, the demand is the same to me, so prices level too logically. or maybe not. it's just much more complicated that what I thought

Okay, basically think of it this way. You have a medicine you want to sell in Canada, where we have a universal health care system. You have to negotiate with the government on how much they are willing to pay. If they ask you to sell at a loss, you tell them to shove off obviously. But a price where you still earn a profit, just not quite as much as you were hoping? That is still better than losing the entire market of millions of people. Keep in mind you only have a limited window to make your big money in before generics can start competing, you don't want to throw away any of that time and money if you don't have to.

And trying to illegally sell through the internet is called 'drug smuggling' and is a good way to get in a lot of trouble.

[BeepBoo]

Do you somehow not understand how necessity makes it harder to bargain a price down?

What makes you think I don't understand that? As I said, that's a feature of the system to me. If it's because you find that point of view so heartless you can't imagine how anyone would hold it, well.. I'm here to show you people can and do take that position. Not everyone is worth saving.

[omeomorfismo]

Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that. I think it's important to force people to reconcile with the reality that they don't have infinite value and that some people just don't care about them.

so why US can have a shittier system than even cuba?
and you can spout anarco liberistic bullshit all day, the fact that someone cant pay 1kk for his health doesnt stop him to perceive his health 1kk value. and thats why we stop the business greed to predate the desperation of people. it warps the market in a way that isnt fixable by laissez-faire, to the contrary, it only worse it.

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I'm not sure how a company would only have the state as a customer, I'm also not sure how competition would work, such companies could also get demand from other countries or sell on the internet I suppose, universal health care or not, the demand is the same to me, so prices level too logically. or maybe not. it's just much more complicated that what I thought

because the health system is national? i mean, it can be true even for single insurance, the point is that its single. then sure, having a world system would optimize it even further, but million of people nations are enought to let that system works... internet is a non factor, first because most of the drugs have to be taken in the hospital, then internet smuggling works when there are small quantities, you cant realistically import without checks medicines for millions of people (illegals drugs arent comparable in any way).

[Felya]

I'm not american, I think I didn't get your point, billionaires would go to the best places I suppose

Because you focused on a meaningless part of what I said... do you think I know where the rich eat? I googled and then posted the most fancy sounding place I saw on first page... if I didn’t copy and paste, that spelling wouldn’t even be close.

but the point is the tax that goes from the non wealthy to the wealthy, which makes little to no difference for the wealthy, but a difference for the non wealthy

How much? How much does every person contribute to the healthcare of the wealthy? What is the actual cost? Less than a penny from each person going to the healthcare of the wealthy, while getting healthcare your self? Please... quantify your assertion...

If you need an example why populism is so bad... this... the wealthy will also get coverage if it’s universal... is a perfect example... You are bitching about less than a penny, because you think repeating the rich and wealthy, will intrinsically sway people from universal healthcare?

Universal Healthcare > a penny to the rich

[JohnBrown1917]

What makes you think I don't understand that? As I said, that's a feature of the system to me. If it's because you find that point of view so heartless you can't imagine how anyone would hold it, well.. I'm here to show you people can and do take that position. Not everyone is worth saving.

You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.

[BeepBoo]

so why US can have a shittier system than even cuba?

Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.

the fact that someone cant pay 1kk for his health doesnt stop him to perceive his health 1kk value.

Cool, he can think he's worth that all he wants. No one cares, and if he doesn't have the actual means of backing that up, then he's delusional and should be forced to reconcile that.

and thats why we stop the business greed to predate the desperation of people. it warps the market in a way that isnt fixable by laissez-faire, to the contrary, it only worse it.

Nah, it only worsens it in certain ways that you personally care about. It makes it better in some. People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.

[Felya]

You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.

I want to see you reply to Cæli... I want to see a right and left wing populist argue, to end up on the solution being a new word for fascism...

[BeepBoo]

You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.

I make no supposition. I could see most of the poor working class not being worth saving to society, but I don't presume to make that choice for them. However many people live when people are left to freely share as much help as they want is the exact number of people who are worth saving.

[omeomorfismo]

Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.


Cool, he can think he's worth that all he wants. No one cares, and if he doesn't have the actual means of backing that up, then he's delusional and should be forced to reconcile that.


Nah, it only worsens it in certain ways that you personally care about. It makes it better in some. People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.

shittier because US pay more for worse health system. its simple.
you want "worth people" pay more only to culling "useless people"? ok, but here we are discussing healthcare, so at least try to write a consistent line, or open a genocide thread. as you prefer....

/pat